Paedobaptist looking for home

Blackhawk said:

Hi! I am a Southern Baptist who recently started to believe in infant baptism. Now there are not many doctrines that one MUST believe in as a Baptist but believers only baptism through immersion is one of them. (It just might be the only one that is strictly Baptist) So I am looking for a new home and have a few questions for y'all.

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Welcome MB

1. Does one hae to reject penal substitutionary atonment in order to be an EO?

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No, it is not rejected in the East, it is a part our understanding, after all some of the terms focused on in the West are Biblical. We just do not emphasize or obsess over it to the exclusion of the Eastern soteriological elements, e.g. Christus Victor.

2. Can one just believe that the presence of Christ in the Eucharist is a mystery and not accept transubstantiation over spiritual presence? (Calvin)

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You must simply believe that it is truly His Body and Blood. There is no need to rationalize it. Just as the Incarnation is a Mystery, so too is the Eucharist.

Those are my questions right now but there are probably more that I can't think of right now. I have read Lossky and read many of the Church Fathers. I have come from a very protestant background and I am very attracted to EO I always feel that I am not completely understanding the faith so even though I have read some good texts I still need help.

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May God guide you and keep you in your search.

1. this would be easier if you explain what you really mean by "penal substitutionary atonement". some things that go by that name aren't compatible with Orthodoxy at all, the others, well, keep in mind that any explanatory metaphor for our salvation is only a metaphor, and any model of justification is only a model, it can only go so far towards explaining the reality of our justification and our salvation. one among many such models and not even the most important. I recommend browsing through the following page, paying particular attention to the links on "incarnation", "redemption", "resurrection", and "judgment": http://oca.org/OCIndex-TOC.asp?SID=2&book=Doctrine&section=The%20Symbol%20of%20Faith

2. though one need not believe the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation per se, you really do have to believe that the Eucharist truly is the body and blood of Christ. the exact manner, certainly, is mysterious, but it really is the body and blood of Christ.

3. this is a vague question, I don't think there's really a list per se. if you're really interested in what the Orthodox believe, a good catechism has been put on the internet for free here that you can poke around in: http://oca.org/OCorthfaith.asp?SID=2

4. what on earth are you reading?

Blackhawk said:

Hi! I am a Southern Baptist who recently started to believe in infant baptism. Now there are not many doctrines that one MUST believe in as a Baptist but believers only baptism through immersion is one of them. (It just might be the only one that is strictly Baptist) So I am looking for a new home and have a few questions for y'all.

1. Does one hae to reject penal substitutionary atonment in order to be an EO?
2. Can one just believe that the presence of Christ in the Eucharist is a mystery and not accept transubstantiation over spiritual presence? (Calvin)
3. What are the doctrines (different than the protestant in the West) that are required to be believed in order to be EO?
4. What is requierd belief as far as the energies?

Those are my questions right now but there are probably more that I can't think of right now. I have read Lossky and read many of the Church Fathers. I have come from a very protestant background and I am very attracted to EO I always feel that I am not completely understanding the faith so even though I have read some good texts I still need help.

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I see you live in Fort Worth, Texas. May I recommend you visit St. Barbara's OCA church:

http://www.oca.org/DIRlisting.asp?SID=9&KEY=OCA-SO-FWASBM

when you are up to a visit? I know several converts there - one a former Oral Roberts University student who converted while at ORA; another a former Bible Church Evangelical now philosophy student (doctoral studies?) and presently a catechumen (like myself); and a third from a two-decades+ non-denominational Charismatic/Evangelical background like myself. Plus, a couple people on this Forum attend there - Andrea Elizabeth and grov, for example. It's way on the south side of Fort Worth:

Church Address:
5201 Altamesa,
Fort Worth, TX 76133
V. Rev. Basil Zebrun, Rector
Home: 817-346-6879
Office: 214-522-4149

The directions on the Webpage might be for the old location. Call the number above to get directions to the new building.

There is also a Greek Orthodox Church that might be closer to you:

http://www.stdemetrios.net/

2020 NW 21st Street
Fort Worth, TX 76106
817.626.5578

though I have never visited there.

Welcome to TAW!

Blackhawk said:

Hi! I am a Southern Baptist who recently started to believe in infant baptism.

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Hi! We are the Eastern Orthodox and we believe in infant baptism too,..

1. Does one hae to reject penal substitutionary atonment in order to be an EO?

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Generally Eastern Orthodox reject this atonement theory, particularly due to the influence of the Neo-Patristic Synthesis spearheaded by Fr. George Florovsky and Vladimir Lossky. But I know of no Universal dogmatic statement to this effect. My guess is we are dealing with theological opinion (theologoumena) and not dogma. My money is with Fr. George and Vladimir (this time )

2. Can one just believe that the presence of Christ in the Eucharist is a mystery and not accept transubstantiation over spiritual presence? (Calvin)

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We do not speak of Real Presence so much, but of the Body and Blood of Christ. We believe that the Bread and Wine, are both truly Bread and Wine, and truly Body and Blood of Jesus. There is, so to speak, an overcoming of the law of identity without destroying the law of identity. Transsubstantiation is used in some Orthodox authors, but it is not at all dogma that must be held to. In fact, recently there has been a purification of language in Orthodox theology and transsubstantiation is rejected as too Aristotelian and not theological (which leaves room for Mystery after, all we do not speak of Sacraments, byt Mysteries!).

3. What are the doctrines (different than the protestant in the West) that are required to be believed in order to be EO?

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Perhaps the short version of HG Hilarion Alfeyev's The Mystery of Faith can help you here. Read through it, and you will find the essential of Orthodox teaching.

4. What is requierd belief as far as the energies?

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1. God is absolutely transcendent. ‘No single thing of all that is created has or ever will have even the slightest communion with the supreme nature or nearness to it (Gregory Palamas, P.G. 150, 1176c (quoted on p. 77)). This absolute transcendence Orthodoxy safeguards by its emphatic use of the ‘way of negation,’ of ‘apophatic’ theology. Positive or ‘cataphatic’ theology — the ‘way of affirmation’ — must always be balanced and corrected by the employment of negative language. Our positive statements about God — that He is good, wise, just and so on — are true as far as they go, yet they cannot adequately describe the inner nature of the deity. These positive statements, said John of Damascus, reveal ‘not the nature, but the things around the nature.’ ‘That there is a God is clear; but what He is by essence and nature, this is altogether beyond our comprehension and knowledge (On the Orthodox Faith, 1, 4 (P.G. 94, 800B, 797B)).
2. God, although absolutely transcendent, is not cut of from the world which He has made. God is above and outside His creation, yet He also exists within it. As a much used Orthodox prayer puts it: ‘Thou art everywhere and finest all things.’ Orthodoxy therefore distinguishes between God’s essence and His energies, thus safeguarding both divine transcendence and divine immanence: God’s essence remains unapproachable, but His energies come down to us. God’s energies, which are God Himself, permeate all His creation, and we experience them in the form of deifying grace and divine light. Truly our God is a God who hides Himself, yet He is also a God who acts — the God of history, intervening directly in concrete situations.
HG Kalistos of Diakleia (Timothy Ware), The Orthodox Church.

Grigorii

Just want to say "hi" blackhawk!

I was born in Fort Worth, grew up Southern Baptist, and now live in the Dallas area.

We'll try to answer your questions as best we can, but it's always best to learn Orthodoxy by experiencing it if you can. If you could make it to St. Barbara's for Vespers (a quiet, beautiful prayer service) on a Saturday evening, that would be a great start.

Mary

Welcome Blackhawk,

As a former Baptist myself I know about the struggle you are facing in what I hope will be your journey home to the Church. My journey began in a similar way to yours. After becoming a Calvinistic Baptist it wasn't long until I came to believe in paedobaptism. After coming to believe in paedobaptism it wasn't long before I came to believe in the real presence. In fact, just before joining the presbyterian church I became a Lutheran for a stint before becoming convinced that there is no such thing as sola scriptura.

Keep praying and studying. Above all I recommend that you start attending some services at an Orthodox Church and begin a dialogue with a priest. Your questions will be answered soon enough and the truth of the claims of the Church will be made evident. It will just come down to the grace of God and the exercise of your free will to believe. [spoken by a former Calvinist]

In addition to attending services and speaking with a priest, I'm sure you'll find this forum to be very helpful.

God bless.

Welcome!

I strongly suggest that you speak with a priest and make a visit to an Orthodox Church.

Hi Blackhawk,

As Kathxomenon (sorry, I can never remember how to spell it) offered, St. Barbara OCA may be close to you. I attend there with my wife (Andrea) and our 6 kids. There's still room for more even with us there, as we just moved into a new building (with a big gold dome and Cross on top).

I can't add anymore to what Grigorii said so well, except my personal testimony that I was Lutheran, then Charismatic (Assembly of God - Bethesda up on North Beach), then Bible Church, but all the while thinking something's not connected. After years of looking for the linkage in 2nd Temple period Judaism, we finally stumbled into Orthodoxy. You are way ahead of us in your approach. Our Bishop (ArchBishop Dmitri) likens conversions to Orthodoxy as fish flopping into the boat kind of on their own (unfortunately).

We first visited St. Seraphim's in Dallas (the ArchBishop's home parish), and he invited me to "come into the fullness" with a magnetism that caught hold of me. Then we visited St. Peters' Antiochan (a former Episcopal church that converted en masse, now Western Rite Orthodox), then St. Demetrios (north FW), then St. Barbara's, which felt like home somehow (maybe because of some connection to my East European heritage). Most of us Orthodox in the area visit each other fairly regularly - there is no difference between us in doctrine, only in cultural heritage and in some cases the language used for the Liturgy, and it's fascinating to see the diversity with unity.

The bottom line is that it's best sometimes to just "taste and see". If you get an opportunity to visit us, please ask for George or Andrea, or as Kathxoumenosis (sorry) said, ask for Brian or Charles or talk to anybody (though some speak mostly Russian). Father Basil is very approachable and the most humble of men.

Oh, one other thing - having once convinced myself of the authority of the Church and her councils, I still had difficulties with several issues, all of which melted away in fairly short time. So if anything looks strange to you, just ask.

Oh, and one more thing - a week from Wednesday, we're holding our biannual Assembly at St. Seraphim's in Dallas, and there will be a Vespers service in the early evening, with ArchBishop Dmitri (I believe), followed by a talk and question/answer session with Father Thomas Hopko, an amazingly understandable theologian and Dean Emeritus of St. Vladimir's Orthodox Seminary. If you can come, I promise you'll never forget it.

Best wishes to you in your journey,
George

... and feel free to click through the "new to Orthodoxy" and conversion stickies. You might find a few posts that will sound very familiar to you!

Welcome to TAW!

grov said:

Hi Blackhawk,

As Kathxomenon (sorry, I can never remember how to spell it)

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Maybe it would help if I spell it in Greek (you'll need to view it in Internet Explorer; Firefox won't show the Greek characters; I use English characters in my username that correspond to the look of the Greek characters):

KATHCOUMENOS or kathcoumenoV

It means a (male) person who is being catechized/instructed. It's the masculine singular nominative present middle/passive participle of kathcew.

Which makes me realize that I should be spelling my username as KATHXOYMENOC. Maybe I'll change it.

But that means losing all my "equipment" and my points. I guess I'll just live with my mistake, like I do with all my mistakes!!!

At least I spelled the slogan on my checks correctly: KYPIOCIHCOYCXPICTOC

KATHXOUMENOC said:

...It means a (male) person who is being catechized/instructed. It's the masculine singular nominative present middle/passive participle of kathcew.

Which makes me realize that I should be spelling my username as KATHXOYMENOC.

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If only I'd known that (should have, seems so obvious in retrospect), I'd have had no problem spelling it.


Thanks Kathxometer

Welcome Blackhalk!

There is not much for me to add except to really stress that Orthodoxy is an experience and you can read all you want but until you see it in person you can't really know about it.

Further, it is best to ask any question you ask here to a Priest. We are not Priests and they really do know better than us.

Lastely, in the process of conversion it is normal to have something that you do not accept. It is suggested that you attend services and talk with the Priest and give yourself time to absorb things. The Eastern way of thinking can be very different than some of the way's Westerners, particularly academically oriented ones can think.

Ask us anything BTW, just please find also a local parish.

Just want to say I love your avatar, BH! Mirror, mirror was a great episode!

(Uh, and everyone else is right, specially eoe)

I was (northern) fundamental Baptist-cum-agnostic, and when I found Orhtodoxy and read the Nicene Creed I was able to say, "This is what I have always truly believed!"

Hey, blackhawk! Welcome to TAW!

Although in Orthodoxy we certainly care for the correct teaching, it doesn't work like in Protestant churches. In Orthodoxy, you aquire a whole new mindset, in which all peices matter and have their place. You cannot believe all but reject one thing being Orthodox. You cannot be Orthodox and suppose that, for example, infants shouldn't be baptised. It just wouldn't make sense. All the teachings compose an organic whole, and they should be learned only as parts of the whole, and in no way be separated. So, in order to be Orthodox, you need to acquire the mindset, and then you'll be good to go. You wouldn't even need to know some of the theology in order to accept it, because if you accept the mindset, you will accept everything that belongs to it.

A tremendously important part of learning the mindset of Eastern Christianity is experiencing it. Orthodoxy is all about engaging your whole being in the worship of God. You need to experience it for it to start working in your heart. Some things will be opened to you by grace just during simple standing in the back of a church on one of the charming Vespers services. Even if you will not participate, bodily, that is, but try to listen to the words sang, see the interior of the church, experience the reverence, smell the insense, touch the flame of a candle, or even bow your head when the Gospel is carried out in respect for the Word of God, the experience will work its part in you and make your learning quest whole rather than partial.
It's sorta like learning how to paint. You can read books about art, or about how to paint. But until you actually try painting and practice, you wouldn't become an artist, would you? But without books you wouldn't know the direction, too. Both are good.

However, the learning of the mindset might take some time, may be a few months, or a year, or even a few years, depending on the level of your involvment with Protestantism. Also, Orthodoxy in large part sometimes contradicts the dry rational mind but rather understood by the heart or through experience. Sometimes people tend to overlook this important point and therefore their learning process takes longer, much longer.

Hope this helps

Blackhawk said:

Hi! I am a Southern Baptist who recently started to believe in infant baptism.

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It happened to me also. In case you do not know, the Orthodox are the only ones who commune infants to my knowledge. This was one of the issues that turned me towrds the East.

Happy orthodox has a point. I didn't know that much about the Orthodox Church - I only knew I had to accept it. I identified the main problems I had with its teachings, met with a priest, realized the problems were of my creation, not the Church's, was Chrismated (I had been baptized both as a Catholic (infant) and as a Baptist (child)). With the few other things that run against the grain I was brought up with, I say, "I believe - Lord, help my unbelief!" until such time as I understand why. In other words, the Church knows better than I do.

I come from a Baptist background, too. I agree with what a lot of others here say, that you have to absorb it, read about it, and speak to a priest. There were a few things that I didn't understand and when I asked other people, they either said to ask a priest or gave me an opinion and said that I should ask a priest because he is the final authority on it.

Cynthia (Elizabeth)

When it came about that several things I was taught in other denominations were wrong (finding for myself reading the Bible, sometimes) and it came about that I thought perhaps it would be better to just throw everything out - "Everything you were taught was wrong." So that is about the place I am now, and ready to be instructed in the Orthodox Way.

I would not say that too many of the things a protestant would beleive would be "wrong". The most profound things are not that they are "wrong" but that there is a different understanding to them. While I admire your attitude for starting at ground zero I think that statement is a bit scary to someone that is simply a casual inquirer.

Here is one of the major things that you need to understand. Western Christianity has a focus on learning about God in a different way than we do. In the Eastern church we are experiential. We go for a direct experience with God rather than book knowledge. Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote book after book and then one day had an actual experience with God. After that he said that all of his books should be burned and never wrote another page. This illustrates a major difference between the East and West.

The very first step is to go to a service (Consider Vespers for a first service) and to see the icons, hear the chanting, smell the incense and in general "feel" it. Afterwards, speak to the priest. Tell him what your thought are and ask him questions. You may be tempted to read and study - that is the western way. Go. Experience it for yourself, then ask questions.