did i understand him correctly?

chagal was here

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Monday night i was watching good ole' jack van impe on the blessed trinity broadcasting network.

I was working on a couple of other things at the same time, so i'm not sure that i got what he said completely right, but..

it sounded like he had found the physical location of heaven in deep space.  He rattled off the distance in light years to the 2nd and 3rd heavenlies...

Now if he knows how far away it is, can he tell me in which direction to point my telescope?
 

Auntie

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Originally posted by chagal was here


I'm sure that's what he meant, auntie, But to declare that he knows how far away it is implies that he knows where heaven is. Doesn't that strike you as awfully strange?

chagal,

I like Van Impe, but I take him with a grain of salt.  At the very most, he is simply stating his opinion.  So when he says something strange, I figure that's just his opinion.

I like Jack because he causes me to think about things.  Sometimes I agree with him, sometimes I don't.  Kind of like peeps posting on a message board.:)

But now I am wondering, did Paul know where heaven is?  What did Paul mean when he said "the third heaven"?? :scratch:  
 
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Auntie

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Hello Brian! :wave:

Yes, I wonder if there is any other writings that mention the "third heaven".

And the possibility that the person might have been caught up physically to this third heaven was not denied by Paul, but rather, Paul obviously thought it was very possible!  Interesting!
 
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Brian45

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Paul's Love for the Church
1 It is doubtless[1] not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- 4how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.


Hi Auntie , I just went to bible gateway to find more on this , but the only thing I could find is what we already knew .

It seems Paul is not sure if this guy is in or out of the body . It's got me beat .
 
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parousia70

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Here's pure speculation on my part about the 3rd heaven, 1st heaven being the atmosphere, 2nd being outer space, 3rd being the spiritual dwelling place of God. Possible?

In my humble opinion, Ole' JVI would do well if he started to understand that "Heaven" is a position, not a location. Righteousness is positional in nature, not locational. The Kingdom of God/Heaven isn't in one place and not another.


Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um


And the possibility that the person might have been caught up physically to this third heaven was not denied by Paul, but rather, Paul obviously thought it was very possible!  Interesting!

You know what else is interesting about that Aunti?
While you may infer that Paul thought it "possible" for this "catching up" to be bodily, we can, in no way at all, infer that Paul thought/taught that a "bodily" catching up was in any way "Necessary" for this "catching up" to be "Literal".

Interesting indeed! ;)
 
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Patmosman_sga

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JVI is a classic example of the type of non-biblical dualism which has been so commonplace in various sects of Christianity over the last 200 years or so.

Here is a nettle which we must grasp if we are to understand the relevant issues that swirl around apocalyptic speculations, not least those surrounding the Millennium.* When people hear talk about "heaven" and "earth", in our culture they normally assume that these terms refer to places at a great distance from each other. Many people still think that "heaven" is "way beyond the blue", a place up there in, or above, the sky. Even though most people know it isn't like that, the picture is naggingly resistant to serious thought.

Talk of "heaven" and "earth", though, comes to us mostly from the Bible; and in the Bible these are not two places, separated from each other by many miles, but two different dimensions of the total reality of the world. This is what I mean by a "duality", as opposed to a "dualism". Just as animals, and many plants, are irreducibly male and female, with the two being complementary, and both being good and necessary for the flourishing of the species, so "heaven" and "earth" are the two dimensions of created reality. These two God-given dimensions interlock and interact in a variety of ways, sometimes confusingly, often surprisingly. And it's particularly important to notice that heaven and earth were both created good. It isn't the case that the physical world is somehow shabby or second-rate, and the non-physical somehow morally superior. That is to move into dualism, setting the two worlds against each other. Indeed, in the biblical story evil infected both spheres: creatures in heaven as well as creatures on earth, we are told, rebelled against God. But in that same story all things, in both spheres, are reconciled thorugh Jesus the Messiah, though only after the principalities and powers, the spiritual powers that attempted to usurp God's place, had been defeated through Jesus' crucifixion (Colossians 1.15-20; 2.14-15).

My point is this: the duality between heaven and earth is very different from the dualisms of sectarian religion. The midset that tends towards apocalypticism normally thinks of the heavenly realm, or the spiritual realm, or simply the non-physical realm, as always good, and the earthly, material, physical world as always bad. Hence the readiness to imagine the present physical world being blown apart in some great Armageddon, and the sublime confidence that "we"--whichever group that might be--will be rescued from the ruin in a "heavenly" salvation that has left earth far behind.

--N.T. Wright, The Millennium Myth, Westminster/John Knox 1999, pp. 37-38

*"Millennium" here refers to the advent of the year 2000, which is the basic theme of the book.
 
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Thunderchild

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I believe that this NT Wright person is correct regarding the location of heaven. (assuming that heaven and paradise are one). The Bible records that the celestial city "touched down" on Earth. The land had to be a section which had never had human buildings on it, as nothing man-made could withstand the touch of that which is pure/holy. (sort of rules out some sort of vision being granted, that).

And much as I hate to agree with Parousia about anything - those three explanations would also seem to be valid.
 
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Thunderchild

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Shall Christianity then be restored by young, unknown, inconsiderable men? I know not whether ye yourselves could suffer it. Would not some of you cry out, "Young man, in so doing thou reproachest us?"

--John Wesley, Sermon IV, Scriptural Christianity
Most likely that is PRECISELY how it will be done, John Wesley.
 
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Thinker

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The `Third Heaven' is part of a concept, somewhat astrological in nature, often refered to in the early church, no longer acceptable to most christians.

It must be kept in mind that at the time the gospels were written, and for over a millenia afterwards, there was no real distinction between astrology and astronomy. Celestial events were widely and adamantly believed by all - including christians - to mirror or fortell events on earth. The moon and sun and planets were not seen as astronomical bodies, but as divine markers, for want of a better term. Each was seen as being imbedded in a `sphere', and each sphere was, in a mystical sense, directly linked with a differing portion of the afterworld - Venus the heaven of Love; Mars the Heaven of War; ect. Dante elaborates on this scheme in his `Paradise'. A capable enough mystic, during this period, would be deemed capable of visiting each of these `spheres' (heavens), either in the body or in the spirit.

The magical, mystical, and (christian) gnostic literature of the period from 100 BC (give or take) to 300 AD (give or take) is filled with accounts of such mystical explorers. Possibly this accounts for the christian condemnations of sorcery (seen to be identical with astrology), as such provided an alternate account of such heavens, ect.
 
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