Christians Over Here Please

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ALRAJY

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(Ghafir 40:41)
"And, O my people! What aileth me that I call you unto deliverance when ye call me unto the Fire ? Ye call me to disbelieve in ALLah and ascribe unto Him as partners that whereof I have no knowledge, while I call you unto the Mighty, the Forgiver. Assuredly that whereunto ye call me hath no Claim in the world Or in the Hereafter, and Our return will be unto Allah, and the prodigals will be owners Of the Fire. And ye will remember what I say unto you. I confide my cause unto Allah. Lo! Allah is Seer Of (His) Slaves"


NASAg03 said:
I have learned a lot about islam. eventually i would like to read the Q'uran, but i'm working on finishing the Bible first. I'm on my 2nd go at the NT. Only made it up to Jeremiah on the OT. I just can't get that much into it
Of ALL the major Religions in the world, Islam is the Only Non-Christian Faith that Recognises Jesus. Within the pages Of the Qur'an is a distinctly Islamic portrayal Of Jesus. Three Of Its Surahs/Chapters, (AL-Imran), (AL-Maida) & (Mariam) are So named because Of their references to Jesus & His work.

They First talk Of How Mary was Considered Rightous, Of How ALLah made Her Pure (AL-Imran 3:42) "And when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! ALLah hath Chosen thee and made thee pure, and hath preferred thee above (all) the women Of Creation"

Of How She was Preferred with Signs (AL-Imran 3:37) "Whenever Zachariah went into the Sanctuary where She was, He Found that She had Food. He said: O Mary! Whence Cometh unto thee this (food) ? She answered: It is From Allah. Allah giveth without Stint to whom He will"

And Of How She Got Pregnant with Her Infant after ALLah had Promised Her via the Angles, and named this Child For Her (AL-Imran 3:45) "(And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings Of a word From Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, Son Of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and One Of those brought near (unto Allah)"

The Holy Quran makes It very CLear that the Promised Child was Created by the Will Of GOD, without a Male Intervention, and Clarify that this the action Shouldn't be Considered as the Child being GOD Himself, becuase even Adam was created Unlike the Usual Picture that People think Of (AL-Imran 3:59) "The likeness Of Jesus with ALLah is as the likeness Of Adam. He created Him Of dust, then He said unto Him: Be! and He is" but was Created by the Godly word (Be)

Actually, this is Considered among the First Miracles Granted to Jesus Christ (PBUh), then ALLah Let Him talk at the Onset Of His Infancy, in His Craddle, to defend His Mother From what She was Claimed to be by Her People (Mariam 19:28-33) "Then She pointed to Him. They said: How can we talk to One who is in the Cradle, a young Boy ? He spake: Lo! I am the SLave Of ALLah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet, And hath made me BLessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and ALmsgiving so Long as I remain ALive, And (hath made me) dutiful toward Her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, Unblest. Peace On me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!"

When He Reached Adulthood, and became a Fully grown man that can take Responsibilities, GOD ALmighty appointed Him as Prophet (AL-Maidah 5:46) "And We caused Jesus, Son Of Mary, to Follow in their Footsteps" and a Preacher Of the Message that ALL Of the Prophets brought to their People:Worship ALmighty GOD, and Him ALone. Have Faith, and Live your Life according to that Faith (AL-Imran 3:50) "And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you" So, He was given the Knowledge Of the Torah (AL-Maidah 5:110) "And how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel" and the Possession Of the Injel (AL-Maidah 5:46) "And We Bestowed On Him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a Light"

No to Forget the Jesus Christ (PBUH) was Granted From ALLah, the ability to Perform Miracles So that People may refrain From their wicked ways, and Believe in the One true GOD (AL-Maidah 5:110) "And how thou didst shape Of Clay as It were the Likeness Of a bird by My permission, and didst BLow upon It and It was a bird by My permission, and thou didst Heal Him who was born Blind and the leper by My permission; and How thou didst raise the dead by My Permission" and Among Others were (AL-Imran 3:49) "And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye Store up in your houses"

The Holy Quran also Clarifies that His Message (PBUH) was to the People Of Israel Primarly (AL-Imran 3:49) "And will make Him a messenger unto the Children Of Israel", that when He conveyed The Message and Said Unto them (AL-Saff 61:6) "O Children Of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger Of Allah unto you, Confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings Of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One", the People Of Israel divided among themselves into a Believer & and Dis-believer (AL-Saff 61:14) "And a party Of the Children of Israel Believed, while a party Disbelieved", and those who Believed in Him were His true Honored deciples, while Others whos Hated Him were Cursed, and eventually deserved the Anger From GOD ALmighty Upon them (AL-Maidah 5:78-79) "Those Of the Children Of Israel who went astray were cursed by the tongue Of David, and Of Jesus, Son Of Mary. That was because they Rebelled and used to transgress. They restrained not One another From the wickedness they did. Verily evil was that they used to do!"

The Holy Quran also mentions in more than One Place the Survival Of Jesus Christ (PBUH) From the Curcifixtion event, that took place Historically (AL-Imran 3:55) "And am CLeansing thee Of those who disbelieve", and ensures that the Guy who was tracked down wasn't the Prophet Of GOD Isa (PBUH) (AL-Nissa 4:157) "They SLew him not nor Crucified Him, but It appeared So unto them" & and that the Knowledge Of the People Of the Book (Christians) is minor regarding what Happened during that event (AL-Nissa 4:157) "They Have no Knowledge thereof save pursuit Of a Conjecture; they sLew Him not For certain"

And The Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) spoke about the Coming Of His Brother Isa (PBUH) and said "There is No prophet between me and Him, that is, Jesus (Peace_Be_Upon_Him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see Him, recognise Him: a man Of Medium Height, reddish Fair, Wearing two Light yellow Garments, Looking as If drops were Falling down From His head though It will not be wet. He will Fight the people For the cause Of Islam. He will Break the Cross, Kill swine, and Abolish Jizyah. ALLah will perish all Religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live On the earth For Forty years and then He will die. The Muslims will pray Over Him" (Book 37, Hadith 4310)

In addition, The Quranic verses Also warned From thinking Of Or Putting Jesus Christ at a Higher Stage than He actually was (AL-Nissa 4:171) "O People Of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning ALLah save the truth", but to take the Plain truth that (Mariam 33:34) "Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement Of the truth Concerning which they doubt. It befitteth not (the Majesty Of) ALLah that He should take unto Himself a Son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto It Only: Be! and It is"

ALso, In the day Of Judgement, He will turn His back to ALL those that gave Him Divinity (AL-Maidah 5:116-117) "And when ALLah saith: O Jesus, Son of Mary! Didst thou say unto Mankind: Take me and my mother For two gods beside ALLah ? He saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had No right. If I used to say It, then Thou knewest It. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, Only Thou, art the Knower Of Things Hidden ? I spake unto them Only that which Thou Commandedst me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when Thou tookest me Thou wast the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness Over ALL things"

One can see From what previously said that Believing in this Great man is a base Of Faith For Muslims, and that ALLah won't accept anyone who has doubt in this Prophet (AL-Baqarah 2:285) "The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto Him From His Lord and (So do) believers. Each one believeth in ALLah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any Of His messengers"

I Hope this gave a Pre-knowledge Of what you might Expect regarding your Faith


To be Continued
 
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ALRAJY

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First Of ALL, It is good that you agree On the Fact that:

Peacful Soul said:
All analogies will fail at some point. The only thing that one can do is to get the principle of things explained. There is no perfect analogy. God can not be explained by pure human logic and examples from our 3D world. I hope that is obvious
NASAg03 said:
There is no analogy that can fully describe the God, or the kingdome of God. and yet Jesus still used many parables (anecdotal analogies) in attempt to give understanding to those who did not. He was trying to describe God to those who did not believe in God, and he was doing it using stories they would understand
NASAg03 said:
Part I - The Trinity

Someone already used this analogy, but I'll use it again since it think it's the best one to grasp this concept.

water.

it has three phases, and seems like three different things. these phases can exist at different temperatures and pressures, even coexisting and triexisting (if that's a word) at the triple point.

now, we give them different names: vapor, water, and ice, because they seem like different elements. in fact, they behave like separate elements, vapor acting as a gas and being allowing to permiate everything, be breathed in, expand and fill a void, or be compressed.

this is the gas phase. realize it's still H2O, but it's in the gas phase. Think of the Vapor as the holy spirit. you can't see water vapor, and you can't see the holy spirit. but, vapor can enter you.

now, you have water. water flows, gives life to both plants and animals. but, it's still H2O - same essence as the vapor, but in a different form. think of the water liquid as Jesus, who calls Himself the Living Water.


finally, you have ice. this is solid water. it can be used to make igloos, sculptures, and when at the bottom of Anarctia, it's stronger than steel. but, it's still the same essence and chemcial structure as water and vapor. this if this solid water as Father God.

again, all these phases of H2O never change chemistry,but their phase and the purpose they serve can change. this doesn't mean they have separate purposes. the three phases compliment each other, and you can't have one without the other.

now, i hand you a block of ice, and i say "what is this?" you say ICE, because it's cold and solid. characteristics of this phase of water. but i say "it's H2O". i am right, because the essence of the ice is H2O, but the properties that it exhibits is that of ICE

About the Example you mentioned, I Shall say that It is kind Of wreckless because the Question is does the Water Molecules exist as Solid, Liquid & Vapor ALL at the Same time ? No It doesn't, Consequenlty If we Simply Apply this to Trinity (Matt 3:16-17) "And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up Straight way Out Of the water: and, lo, the heavens were Opened unto Him, and He saw the Spirit Of God descending Like a dove, and Lighting Upon Him: And lo a voice From heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well PLeased"


We Shall see that Either:
  1. The One who was On Earth was GOD, and the Other two weren't
  2. The Dove descending From Heavens was GOD, and the Other two weren't
  3. The Voice From Heaven was GOD, and the Other two weren't
Becuse as we said Earlier that the Concept Of GOD, (Or Water as you Like) can't exist more than Once, Or Possessed in Other Forms at the same time.

If you Insist On Holding to your Concept, and that ALL Of the 3 Naturess are Considered GOD, One On Earth, One descending Like a dove, One Speaking From Heavens, then eventually, you will End-up either with a divided GOD Or Simply 3 GODS.

I Noticed the words (Separate In Form) & (The purpose they Serve can Change) which gave the Impression that you would Go For the Divided GOD Option


NASAg03 said:
you say Jesus cannot be God because he exhibits the properties of Man, but at the same time we say He is God. So, He's teh Son of God and the Son of Man. He is God, displaying the features of Man in the flesh. it doesn't change what He is
I say that GOD can't be a Man, not the Opposite, because If we Look at the OT we will see Named & treated as gods, but not the Divine true GOD, So If want to Include Jesus with them, It is Okay with me

NASAg03 said:
NO, THE TRINITY IS NOT LIKE A SHOE
I don't recall myself Saying "is Trinity Like a Shoe" I think It was meant to be "Is a Shoe Like Trinity" and there is a difference I believe, becuase In the First case you are bringing a Highly Elevated, Well-respected Concept (Trnity) and Compare It to a Humble, degraded Example (Shoe), thus giving a Priority Or Preference to the Shoe in Comparison. Whereas, in the Second case, you are Elevating a very Humble Object, the Shoe, to a Godly Concept, thus Keeping the main Concept in Place, while adding to the Other Object Until It reaches that One. And in either cases you can say Yea! Or No!

NASAg03 said:
A shoe has seperate parts of different chemistry and material. each part is separate, and can serve a different part separate from the rest
No really, there are Shoese made Of the Same Material, although they might not Look as Fashionable as Addidas Or CAT

NASAg03 said:
Each part is separate, and can serve a different part separate from the rest

The Shoe exampel is the Same as Water Example, (Solid, Liquid, Vapor), and Same with Trinity, (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), each Part is Separate From Other, and can serve a different part From the rest, as Someone said:
Fares said:
They have the same objective, same wisdom but different role in the salvation of human kind.And yes its ok .
But when Combined together, these actions will Fulfill GOD Purposes, Water Purposes, Shoe Purposes (To Comfort Out Feet)

NASAg03 said:
Jesus repeatedly states that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. Later, the Spirit comes into Him, and then into His believers
So ?

NASAg03 said:
Part II - Jesus Christ, Son of God

33 Then those who were in the boat came and[c] worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.” - Matthew 14:33

13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”
14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[d] in heaven.” - Matthew 16:13-19

63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”
64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! 66 What do you think?” - Matthew 26:63-66
You Said Earlier that you've read most Of the OT (Till Jermaiah), So, definitly you've come cross the Concept (Son Of GOD) said in more than One place referring to more than a Character in these Books, Right ? If So, then why does It give Jesus a Preference Over Others ?


To be Continued
 
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ALRAJY

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NASAg03 said:
20 When He saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.”
21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? 23 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise up and walk’? 24 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the man who was paralyzed, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”
25 Immediately he rose up before them, took up what he had been lying on, and departed to his own house, glorifying God. 26 And they were all amazed, and they glorified God and were filled with fear, saying, “We have seen strange things today!” - Matthew 5:20-25
Just to Correct the Reference you mentioned, the Story is in (Matt 9:2) not (Matt 5:20), I think Misplaced you It with (Luke 5:20) which is the same Story, Its Okay.

Now, If we go back to the Story we will Clearly See that Jesus Christ didn't refer to Himself, Claim Or even say "I Forgive your Sins" Or "I Have Forgiven Him" But (Matt 9:2) "Son, be Of good Cheer; thy Sins be Forgiven thee" Your sins are Forgiven. And when the Scribes wronged against Jesus, and thought For a moment that what He did was a BLasphemy, Jesus turned to them and Said (Matt 9:4) "Wherefore think ye evil in your Hearts?" and Clarified the matter, that what Just happened In Front Of your Eyes, and this Forgiveness wasn't From Him but From the Only True GOD who ALLowd Jesus to do so (Matt 9:6)"But that ye may Know that the Son Of man hath Power On earth to Forgive Sins" And a reault Of this explaination, Both Pharisees & Scribes understood the Lesson and (Matt 9:8)"They Marvelled, and Glorified GOD, which had given Such power unto MEN"

So, eventually they thought Of Him as a Man, not GOD, Or GOD Manifested Or Something Like that.

NASAg03 said:
In conclusion:


31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved - John 5:31-47
Let's get this straight, Jesus is the Father & is the Son, and as a Father, He manifested Himself into Flesh, and He gave Himself authority as the Son of Man (John 5:27) "And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man"

But His "The Manifested GOD" witness is Not true, (John 5:31) "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true" So, "The Manifested GOD" needed Someone towitness Him, because that Someone's witness is true, whereas "The Manifested GOD" witness is not (John 5:32) "There is another that beareth witness of me; and I knowthat the witness which He witnesseth of me istrue".


But this "Another" Shouldn't bea "Man" (John 5:34) "ButI receive not testimony from man" because this "Another","The Manifested GOD" receiving testimony From, can't be Seen or Heard (John 5:34) "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voiceat any time, nor seen his shape"

Am I Hallucinating Here ?


NASAg03 said:
16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me - John 8:16
Just a Question, If I say "I am with Zak" Am I Zak ? Or "You Have a Pencil" are you the Pencil ?

NASAg03 said:
AND FINALLY, THE GRAND FINALE, PROOF THAT JESUS CLAIMED TO BE GOD:


57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple,[n] going through the midst of them, and so passed by. - John 8:52-59

And again:

4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, “Whom are you seeking?”
5 They answered Him, “Jesus of Nazareth.”
Jesus said to them, “I am He.” And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. 6 Now when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
7 Then He asked them again, “Whom are you seeking?”
And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.”
8 Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am He. - John 18:4-8


notice Jesus calls Himself "I AM" 3 times


First, Notice that Jesus Christ called Himself 2 two times "I am He" not 3 times, the 3rd One you thought Of, was an Elaboration From the Writer to describe what Happened.

Second, What is So Miracleus Here, Ofcourse He would say I am, becuase He was asked such Questions that required the Answer I am , What do you expect Him to reply with, (Yes, I do!), If so then we will End-up with a God who doesn't know Grammer


Third, (John 9:8-9) "The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he"

The Beggar said (I am), praise the Lord, the Beggar is God, He said (I am). Congratulations my Friend, you have a begger GOD, and a Son Of a Carpenter GOD

I am really tired now, Got to Go


Kind Regards
 
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NASAg03

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doh! i browsed away from this reply page, and everything i was writing got erased. probably God telling me to stop because I wasn't showing enough love. understood, gotta show love with the truth, otherwise the truth may fall on silent ears.

ALRAJY said:

Of ALL the major Religions in the world, Islam is the Only Non-Christian Faith that Recognises Jesus. Within the pages Of the Qur'an is a distinctly Islamic portrayal Of Jesus. Three Of Its Surahs/Chapters, (AL-Imran), (AL-Maida) & (Mariam) are So named because Of their references to Jesus & His work.

the gnostic gospels also speak of Jesus Christ, most of these false accounts predating the Qu'ran. just because the Qu'ran mentions Jesus Christ doesn't mean it's correct or accepted as truth among Christians or even Jewish historians.

They First talk Of How Mary was Considered Rightous, Of How ALLah made Her Pure (AL-Imran 3:42) "And when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! ALLah hath Chosen thee and made thee pure, and hath preferred thee above (all) the women Of Creation"

why would God make Mary pure if she was only going to bear a prophet as a son. Few (if any) mothers of the other prophets in the OT are mentioned, so why would Mary be mentioned and highly esteemed or purified by God to bare "just another" prophet???

Of How She was Preferred with Signs (AL-Imran 3:37) "Whenever Zachariah went into the Sanctuary where She was, He Found that She had Food. He said: O Mary! Whence Cometh unto thee this (food) ? She answered: It is From Allah. Allah giveth without Stint to whom He will"

never heard of this story. i have read of john the baptist leaping in the womb when Mary came near, but not this story.

And Of How She Got Pregnant with Her Infant after ALLah had Promised Her via the Angles, and named this Child For Her (AL-Imran 3:45) "(And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings Of a word From Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, Son Of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and One Of those brought near (unto Allah)"

messiah

1 a. expected king and deliverer of the Jews


prophet

1. one who utters divinely inspired revelations.
2. one gifted with more than ordinary spiritual or moral insight
3. one who fortells future events

Why did Allah tell Mary that she would give birth to THE MESSIAH if Jesus was only at prophet??? Although Jesus was a prophet, he was also The Messiah. not all prophets are messiahs! This was the only case, because Jesus is the only Savior listed in the OT.

[Deleted due to 15000 character limit] (AL-Imran 3:59) "The likeness Of Jesus with ALLah is as the likeness Of Adam. He created Him Of dust, then He said unto Him: Be! and He is" but was Created by the Godly word (Be)

no comment.

[/quote]
[Deleted speaking baby Jesus story due to 15000 character limit]
[/quote]

never heard this story, but then again I haven't read all the gnostic gospels.

When He Reached Adulthood, and became a Fully grown man that can take Responsibilities, GOD ALmighty appointed Him as Prophet (AL-Maidah 5:46) "And We caused Jesus, Son Of Mary, to Follow in their Footsteps" and a Preacher Of the Message that ALL Of the Prophets brought to their People:Worship ALmighty GOD, and Him ALone. Have Faith, and Live your Life according to that Faith (AL-Imran 3:50) "And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you" So, He was given the Knowledge Of the Torah (AL-Maidah 5:110) "And how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel" and the Possession Of the Injel (AL-Maidah 5:46) "And We Bestowed On Him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a Light"

Matthew 5:17


“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Your quote is in direct contradiction with Jesus's quote, and with the eternal, unchanging nature of God. Why would God allow a prophet retract His law, or change the law? He wouldn't. If anything, this is a poor account of Peter's vision in Acts 10:9-15 where God allows Peter to eat unclean animals because God has cleansed them.

No to Forget the Jesus Christ (PBUH) was Granted From ALLah, the ability to Perform Miracles So that People may refrain From their wicked ways, and Believe in the One true GOD (AL-Maidah 5:110) "And how thou didst shape Of Clay as It were the Likeness Of a bird by My permission, and didst BLow upon It and It was a bird by My permission, and thou didst Heal Him who was born Blind and the leper by My permission; and How thou didst raise the dead by My Permission" and Among Others were (AL-Imran 3:49) "And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye Store up in your houses"

That same story of Jesus as a child turning the clay bird into a real bird also appears in the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas (written before the Qu'ran). I'm not saying it's true or not, but it would seem to me this legend passed by word of mouth, along with other partial truths of the Gospels, and made their way into the Qu'ran.

The Holy Quran also Clarifies that His Message (PBUH) was to the People Of Israel Primarly (AL-Imran 3:49) "And will make Him a messenger unto the Children Of Israel", that when He conveyed The Message and Said Unto them (AL-Saff 61:6) "O Children Of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger Of Allah unto you, Confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings Of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One", the People Of Israel divided among themselves into a Believer & and Dis-believer (AL-Saff 61:14) "And a party Of the Children of Israel Believed, while a party Disbelieved", and those who Believed in Him were His true Honored deciples, while Others whos Hated Him were Cursed, and eventually deserved the Anger From GOD ALmighty Upon them (AL-Maidah 5:78-79) "Those Of the Children Of Israel who went astray were cursed by the tongue Of David, and Of Jesus, Son Of Mary. That was because they Rebelled and used to transgress. They restrained not One another From the wickedness they did. Verily evil was that they used to do!"

In the previous quote you state God called Jesus "The Messiah", but now he is only a messenger?

Jesus did not "confirm what was in the Torah", he FULFILLED THE LAW and PROPHESIES, which spoke of the Messiah. The Jews did not believe in Jesus for several reason, none of which were because he was just a prophet.

1. Jesus claimed to be God and the Messiah.
2. The Jews did not believe Jesus to be the Messiah because they were expecting a Warrior King to save them, rather than a meek servant, not realizing what this "meek servant" was intending to save them from.

The Holy Quran also mentions in more than One Place the Survival Of Jesus Christ (PBUH) From the Curcifixtion event, that took place Historically (AL-Imran 3:55) "And am CLeansing thee Of those who disbelieve", and ensures that the Guy who was tracked down wasn't the Prophet Of GOD Isa (PBUH) (AL-Nissa 4:157) "They SLew him not nor Crucified Him, but It appeared So unto them" & and that the Knowledge Of the People Of the Book (Christians) is minor regarding what Happened during that event (AL-Nissa 4:157) "They Have no Knowledge thereof save pursuit Of a Conjecture; they sLew Him not For certain"

So Jesus snuck out and had someone be killed in place of him? That makes no sense what so ever. We have already mentioned that we have numerous historical documents predating the Qu'ran which attest to Jesus's crucifixion. The Jews and Romans don't deny killing Jesus. He was killed for blasphemy and claiming to be God.

Mohammed added this information to the Qu'ran because he did not believe and did not want to believe the account of Jesus Christ as the Son of God, because as previously mentioned, he did not believe God was capable or "needed" to become a man. Mohammed put words into God's mouth, claiming God said "He does not need to become a man", in complete contradiction to the OT prophesies which foretold of Christ.

And The Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) spoke about the Coming Of His Brother Isa (PBUH) and said "There is No prophet between me and Him, that is, Jesus (Peace_Be_Upon_Him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see Him, recognise Him: a man Of Medium Height, reddish Fair, Wearing two Light yellow Garments, Looking as If drops were Falling down From His head though It will not be wet. He will Fight the people For the cause Of Islam. He will Break the Cross, Kill swine, and Abolish Jizyah. ALLah will perish all Religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live On the earth For Forty years and then He will die. The Muslims will pray Over Him" (Book 37, Hadith 4310)

Very anti-climactic ending. Jesus lives life in this earth, doesn't die, acends into Heaven so that he can come back to earth, kill a bunch of people, and the DIE???

wow, that is all I can say.

In addition, The Quranic verses Also warned From thinking Of Or Putting Jesus Christ at a Higher Stage than He actually was (AL-Nissa 4:171) "O People Of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning ALLah save the truth", but to take the Plain truth that (Mariam 33:34) "Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement Of the truth Concerning which they doubt. It befitteth not (the Majesty Of) ALLah that He should take unto Himself a Son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto It Only: Be! and It is"

Who is speaking here? Obviously it isn't Allah, because the text is speaking for Allah in the 2nd person vs. 1st person. This means someone (possibly the writer of Miriam) makes this claim. Who wrote Miriam???

And it would befitteth Allah to make Himself a Son if He was fulfilling the prophesies in the OT, all of which point to Jesus Christ and the ransom for our sin, the punishment that God bore on himself so that we would not have to.

God did not need to become a man; He wanted to because He loved us and only He could be a perfect sacrifice for our sins, past present and future.

How do Muslims atone for their sins?

One can see From what previously said that Believing in this Great man is a base Of Faith For Muslims, and that ALLah won't accept anyone who has doubt in this Prophet (AL-Baqarah 2:285) "The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto Him From His Lord and (So do) believers. Each one believeth in ALLah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any Of His messengers"
[/quote]

I think Mohammed made an error in that last verse, since Jesus was quite distant, being conceived of a pure virgin "preferred above all women" (distinct), illustrious, and called The Messiah by God (distinct).

Jesus was quite distinct, much more so than illiterate "prophet". If all messengers of Allah are equal, why don't yall get into a uproar and jihad Americans when Jesus is basphemed in news papers and cartoons?

I Hope this gave a Pre-knowledge Of what you might Expect regarding your Faith

Nope. It gave me post-knowledge of lies regarding my faith, something which isn't really new since similar lies were perpetuated in the gnostic gospels.
 
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saladin1970 said:
lol ,
i totally agree.
what is the point of sending a messenger to guide humanity if what he delivers isn't supposed to be understood, or is a mystery.

kind of defeats the purpose


HA! HA! So funny right? So you suggest that Muhammad delivered you the mysteries of the nature of Allah? You perfectly understand Allah and His being! I am sure you do! Like elijah explained, simply what you "think" is only what a human "can think" nothing more, nothing less. GOD in His glory and mystery is NOT limited to this WHATSOEVER. However a few smart fellas such as yourselves on the thread were ready to jump on it, in whatever they could, despite missing the point.

What is the point of sending a puzzle book that can not be explained perfectly to serve at least a purpose without the sayings and doings of a man which are dubious to this day at the least!?!?!... Watch your glass houses!
 
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ALRAJY said:
Hi Guys,

Hummm, I was wondering about something. Many Say in the Name Of GOD, The Son Of GOD & The Holy Spirit. Is it Okay to say For example:
In the Name Of The Holy Spirit, The Son Of GOD & GOD.
In the Name Of The Son Of GOD, The Holy Spirit & GOD.
Since they are ALL ONE :confused:

Kind Regards

hi alrajy:wave:


i don't care what order my mom says the names of myself and my two sisters when she's introducing us to a friend. she'll usually say my name first cause i'm the eldest, but changing the order around wouldn't change the fact that i'm my mom's oldest daughter, and it wouldn't bother me. i don't think the order is really that big of a deal.

similarly, i don't think really matters what order you say the names of the Trinity in, as long as you believe in the Trinity. there isn't anything in the Bible that says you have to say it a certain way. i myself say the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. they are all one. but they are also three. the three in one. :)

Bethany :)
 
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ALRAJY said:
About the Example you mentioned, I Shall say that It is kind Of wreckless because the Question is does the Water Molecules exist as Solid, Liquid & Vapor ALL at the Same time ? No It doesn't, Consequenlty If we Simply Apply this to Trinity (Matt 3:16-17) "And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up Straight way Out Of the water: and, lo, the heavens were Opened unto Him, and He saw the Spirit Of God descending Like a dove, and Lighting Upon Him: And lo a voice From heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well PLeased"
As I previously mentioned, all three phases can exist at the triple point of water, or 0.006 atm and 0.01 deg F. At this point, ice, water, and vapor all exist at the same time, even though it is all water. different phases with different physical properties, yet all the same chemical composition (H2O).

in addition, two phases can coexist at the same time at the phase boudary, meaning at 1 atm and 0 deg C, both Ice and Water coexist. some goes for 1 atm and 0 deg C, where water and vapor both exist.

http://encarta.msn.com/media_461541579/Phase_Diagram_for_Water.html

We Shall see that Either:
  1. The One who was On Earth was GOD, and the Other two weren't
  2. The Dove descending From Heavens was GOD, and the Other two weren't
  3. The Voice From Heaven was GOD, and the Other two weren't
Becuse as we said Earlier that the Concept Of GOD, (Or Water as you Like) can't exist more than Once, Or Possessed in Other Forms at the same time.

If you Insist On Holding to your Concept, and that ALL Of the 3 Naturess are Considered GOD, One On Earth, One descending Like a dove, One Speaking From Heavens, then eventually, you will End-up either with a divided GOD Or Simply 3 GODS.

I Noticed the words (Separate In Form) & (The purpose they Serve can Change) which gave the Impression that you would Go For the Divided GOD Option

now, lets apply this analogy to God. we believe God is omnipresent, meaning He can be everywhere. so God can be on earth and in Heaven at the same time. He transcends space and time, which allows Him to be everywhere at once.

Now, since Christians believe in the Trinity, God can be present on earth in one of His persons (Jesus), and still be Father God in Heaven. He can also send down His Spirit to enter Jesus, and that same spirit can be in Heaven simultaneously, since God (including His Spirit) is omnipresent beyond space.

When you state that God must be in one place or the other, you are confining God to the liimits of physical law, the law He created. God is not limited by physical law because He is omnipotent, or all powerful. And again, God is omnipresent and therefore beyond space constraints.


I say that GOD can't be a Man, not the Opposite, because If we Look at the OT we will see Named & treated as gods, but not the Divine true GOD, So If want to Include Jesus with them, It is Okay with me

OT prophesy spoke of Jesus's coming, Jesus fulfilled all that phophesy, the whole purpose of the OT was to show a Law that man could not meet, thereby showing that man needed a savior or redeemer to free man of the law.

The prophesies stated who that man would be, the Messiah or Savior, and how he would come to earth. Jesus fulfilled those prophesies, took the punishment that the Law called for so that we would not have to. Be believing in Christ Jesus, we have been freed from the Law - not free from keeping the law but free from the burden and punishment contained within the law.

A son of God is different from The Son of God, where a son is an adopted son, whereas Jesus is The Son of God, God in Flesh, Begotten NOT created from God.

I don't recall myself Saying "is Trinity Like a Shoe" I think It was meant to be "Is a Shoe Like Trinity" and there is a difference I believe, becuase In the First case you are bringing a Highly Elevated, Well-respected Concept (Trnity) and Compare It to a Humble, degraded Example (Shoe), thus giving a Priority Or Preference to the Shoe in Comparison. Whereas, in the Second case, you are Elevating a very Humble Object, the Shoe, to a Godly Concept, thus Keeping the main Concept in Place, while adding to the Other Object Until It reaches that One. And in either cases you can say Yea! Or No!

Very pointless topic and nothing more than semantics. You know what I'm saying. You've spent as much time defending your shoe as you have defending your faith.

You must have some nice shoes!

No really, there are Shoese made Of the Same Material, although they might not Look as Fashionable as Addidas Or CAT

again, off topic tangent used to defend your weak analogy, if we can even call it that. doesn't matter, since your analogy isn't going anywhere, other than on your feet.

The Shoe exampel is the Same as Water Example, (Solid, Liquid, Vapor), and Same with Trinity, (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), each Part is Separate From Other, and can serve a different part From the rest, as Someone said:



these analogies are nothing of the same. parts of a show aren't the same chemistry and they can't coexists. how many times do i need to explain this?

and yes, the phases of water do coexist at the triple point, which i've said for the 4th time now.

consider this horse dead...​
 
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ALRAJY said:
Just to Correct the Reference you mentioned, the Story is in (Matt 9:2) not (Matt 5:20), I think Misplaced you It with (Luke 5:20) which is the same Story, Its Okay.

I stand corrected.

Now, If we go back to the Story we will Clearly See that Jesus Christ didn't refer to Himself, Claim Or even say "I Forgive your Sins" Or "I Have Forgiven Him" But (Matt 9:2) "Son, be Of good Cheer; thy Sins be Forgiven thee" Your sins are Forgiven. And when the Scribes wronged against Jesus, and thought For a moment that what He did was a BLasphemy, Jesus turned to them and Said (Matt 9:4) "Wherefore think ye evil in your Hearts?" and Clarified the matter, that what Just happened In Front Of your Eyes, and this Forgiveness wasn't From Him but From the Only True GOD who ALLowd Jesus to do so (Matt 9:6)"But that ye may Know that the Son Of man hath Power On earth to Forgive Sins" And a reault Of this explaination, Both Pharisees & Scribes understood the Lesson and (Matt 9:8)"They Marvelled, and Glorified GOD, which had given Such power unto MEN"

So, eventually they thought Of Him as a Man, not GOD, Or GOD Manifested Or Something Like that.

John 5:16-23

16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him,[c] because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.


John 10:24-39

24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.[b] 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father.
For which of those works do you stone Me?”
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.


Again, Jesus stated that He was equal with God and deserving of the same honor as God. For this, the Jews sought to stone Him.

Jesus also stated that He and God were one, showing not only that He is God, but also reaffirming the Trinity. He also stated how the Trinity exists, where He is in God and God is in Him, thereby showing the omnipresence of God (Father and Son) being everywhere at once. Again, the sought to seize Him and kill Him.

If Jesus was just a man and out to give all glory to God and none for himself, would would have stated "I an NOT God". He didn't, which is why the Jews wanted to kill him.

If Jesus was so clear about not being God, why did Mohammed have to state 650 years later that Jesus was not God? None of the other prophets were confused with God and needed clairification. Why Jesus?

Maybe because He was born of a virgin, lived a perfect life, claimed to be God, died and resurrected on the 3rd day, all of which fulfilled prophesy of The Messiah in Isaiah, and the entire OT.

Let's get this straight, Jesus is the Father & is the Son, and as a Father, He manifested Himself into Flesh, and He gave Himself authority as the Son of Man (John 5:27) "And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man"

But His "The Manifested GOD" witness is Not true, (John 5:31) "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true" So, "The Manifested GOD" needed Someone towitness Him, because that Someone's witness is true, whereas "The Manifested GOD" witness is not (John 5:32) "There is another that beareth witness of me; and I knowthat the witness which He witnesseth of me istrue".


But this "Another" Shouldn't bea "Man" (John 5:34) "ButI receive not testimony from man" because this "Another","The Manifested GOD" receiving testimony From, can't be Seen or Heard (John 5:34) "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voiceat any time, nor seen his shape"


Am I Hallucinating Here ?




nope, you read that correctly. this entire section shows the complexity of the Trinity, and also shows that the Godhead is three in one: Father, Son, and Spirit.

The Father has bore witness of The Son through the Spirit speaking to people that believe in The Son, and also through the words of the prophets who predicted the life of The Son.

Just a Question, If I say "I am with Zak" Am I Zak ?

no, because you are NOT a triune being.

First, Notice that Jesus Christ called Himself 2 two times "I am He" not 3 times, the 3rd One you thought Of, was an Elaboration From the Writer to describe what Happened.

Second, What is So Miracleus Here, Ofcourse He would say I am, becuase He was asked such Questions that required the Answer I am , What do you expect Him to reply with, (Yes, I do!), If so then we will End-up with a God who doesn't know Grammer


Third, (John 9:8-9) "The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he"


The Beggar said (I am), praise the Lord, the Beggar is God, He said (I am). Congratulations my Friend, you have a begger GOD, and a Son Of a Carpenter GOD

I am really tired now, Got to Go


Kind Regards

I'm not going to go into the details of the significance of Jesus's "I AM" statement. We both know that English is a limited language with limited words. Hebrew has 7 different words for "love" - we have one. Same goes for "I AM". Read this for a better explaination:

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-i-am.htm

Maybe LittleLamb will explain it better. It's 2:20 am, so I'm out of here.

Also, you failed to touch on the fact that Jesus stated "Before Abraham, I AM", claiming that he existed before Abraham. That's something only God can do, and only God would do. But, that's why Jesus said it - because He was before Abraham because He is God.

Jesus claimed eternal existance, something only God can do. Jesus claimed to be God, which is exactly why the pharasies wanted to stone Him.
 
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ALRAJY said:

Of ALL the major Religions in the world, Islam is the Only Non-Christian Faith that Recognises Jesus.

Within the pages Of the Qur'an is a distinctly Islamic portrayal Of Jesus.


The two statements above are mutually imcompatible, and contradictory.

Either you recognise Jesus, or else you have your own version. You cannot have it both ways.

This is like me saying, I recognise Mohammed, who was born in Outer Mongolia and had a pet gerbil called Dynamo.

You would, quite rightly, say, hang on a minute, it has to be a different person you are describing, because that cannot by any stretch of the imagination be my prophet.

And then I would say, ah, but that is because your version is corrupt, and this is the True Mohammed; gerbil lover extraordinaire.

I don't expect you to understand, but that is what Islamic claims about Our Lord amount to, to me. The Koran has no authority to define Christ or Christianity, in opposition to the Canon of Scripture, the Traditions of the Church, and 2000 years of history.
 
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ALRAJY said:
that the Concept Of GOD, (Or Water as you Like) can't exist more than Once, Or Possessed in Other Forms at the same time.

Do you realise what you are doing? You are trying to tell God what he can and cannot be, and what he can and cannot do.

I thought Moslems were supposed to be God fearing?

Fyi, our God is omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing) and omnipresent (in all places at all times). He is also eternal, which means outside or beyond time, and not constrained by it.

Therefore your suggestion about not existing in more than one place at one time is nonsense.
 
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Of ALL the major Religions in the world, Islam is the Only Non-Christian Faith that Recognises Jesus.

Within the pages Of the Qur'an is a distinctly Islamic portrayal Of Jesus.
And we appreciate that. :) Now if only we can get the Jews and non-christians to "recognize" Him. :wave:
Also, you failed to touch on the fact that Jesus stated "Before Abraham, I AM", claiming that he existed before Abraham. That's something only God can do, and only God would do. But, that's why Jesus said it - because He was before Abraham because He is God.
Jesus was proclaiming to the Jews that He was the one promised in the OT without actually referring to Himself as God Himself.

I believe that Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am he." This is no more grammatically problematic than God's own statement in Isaiah 43:13 ("Yea, before the day was, I [am] he.") Jesus uses the same construction to describe his prefiguration, that God Himself had used to describe His eternity. Also in revelation the "Lambkin" is used in place of Jesus's name in the same way. Peace.
(Young) Revelation 13:8 And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land [Israel/Judea], whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lambkin slain/slaughtered from the foundation of the world;
 
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LittleLambofJesus said:
Jesus was proclaiming to the Jews that He was the one promised in the OT without actually referring to Himself as God Himself.

I believe that Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am he."

Rather more than that, imo. "I am" is one of the names of God which God himself uses to refer to himself during the OT. So, just as Our Lord calls himself the "Son of Man", so God calls himself "I am", or in a longer form "I am who I am".

This is why, when Our Lord is asked at his trial in the name of the Living God to state whether he is the Son of God, and when answering simply "I am", his words result in the High Priest tearing his clothes. His reply is not just a simple "yes", but an invocation of God's name to himself. In Jewish terms, this is the highest blasphemy that can be stated. In Christian terms, it is the truth.

Anyone who claims to respect Jesus, but who misunderstands this aspect of him, does not know anything whatever about him, imo. It is not necessary for Moslems to believe what we believe, but it is at least necessary for them to understand what that actually is, instead of what they think it is.
 
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I believe that Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am he." This is no more grammatically problematic than God's own statement in Isaiah 43:13 ("Yea, before the day was, I [am] he.") Jesus uses the same construction to describe his prefiguration, that God Himself had used to describe His eternity. Also in revelation the "Lambkin" is used in place of Jesus's name in the same way. Peace.
Catherineanne said:
Rather more than that, imo. "I am" is one of the names of God which God himself uses to refer to himself during the OT. So, just as Our Lord calls himself the "Son of Man", so God calls himself "I am", or in a longer form "I am who I am".

This is why, when Our Lord is asked at his trial in the name of the Living God to state whether he is the Son of God, and when answering simply "I am", his words result in the High Priest tearing his clothes. His reply is not just a simple "yes", but an invocation of God's name to himself. In Jewish terms, this is the highest blasphemy that can be stated. In Christian terms, it is the truth.

Anyone who claims to respect Jesus, but who misunderstands this aspect of him, does not know anything whatever about him, imo. It is not necessary for Moslems to believe what we believe, but it is at least necessary for them to understand what that actually is, instead of what they think it is.
The Muslims don't read or study the OT and Revelation either. :wave: A lot of christians don't either it seems, IMHO. Peace.
(Young) Revelation 13:8 And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land [Israel/Judea], whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lambkin slain/slaughtered from the foundation of the world;
Ezekiel 7:1 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 "And you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD to the land of Israel: 'An end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land. 3 Now the end [has come] upon you, And I will send My anger against you; I will judge you according to your ways, And I will repay you for all your abominations.
 
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Do you realise what you are doing? You are trying to tell God what he can and cannot be, and what he can and cannot do.

That is a common behavior of muslims since Allah in his book Quran doesn't describe his nature himself but gives himself titles. So in the absence of the knowledge of what God is like, they presume God cannot be like this, or He can be like that, unaware of the fact that now they are saying what God is like without Him telling them so. I say that is spiritual ignorance and should be either ignored or forgiven.
 
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Bushmaster said:
That is a common behavior of muslims since Allah in his book Quran doesn't describe his nature himself but gives himself titles. So in the absence of the knowledge of what God is like, they presume God cannot be like this, or He can be like that, unaware of the fact that now they are saying what God is like without Him telling them so. I say that is spiritual ignorance and should be either ignored or forgiven.

True enough, but it is not just Moslems who do this. Christians are prone to the same failing, at times. :wave:

I am not sure that my reaction to spiritual ignorance would be so charitable as yours, however. I think I prefer to shed light on it, however dim and flickering, rather than allowing it to pass as acceptable behaviour.

Nice wheels, btw. Not so sure about the outfit - makes you look like a bee. :D
 
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The Muslims don't read or study the OT and Revelation either. :wave: A lot of christians don't either it seems, IMHO. Peace.

I believe that Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am he." This is no more grammatically problematic than God's own statement in Isaiah 43:13 ("Yea, before the day was, I [am] he.") Jesus uses the same construction to describe his prefiguration, that God Himself had used to describe His eternity. Also in revelation the "Lambkin" is used in place of Jesus's name in the same way. Peace.
Bushmaster said:
That is a common behavior of muslims since Allah in his book Quran doesn't describe his nature himself but gives himself titles. So in the absence of the knowledge of what God is like, they presume God cannot be like this, or He can be like that, unaware of the fact that now they are saying what God is like without Him telling them so. I say that is spiritual ignorance and should be either ignored or forgiven.
A lot of Muslims read the Qur'an in a "spiritual" way and really believe it is inspired by God. "Confusion" in christianity doesn't really help the Muslims [or non religions] better understand our Scriptures either.

Unfortunately, a lot of christians do not read the Bible the same way, "spiritually", nor do I believe they delve deeply into translations. The Bible is poorly and loosely translated in almost all versions so I sometimes read it from a greek/hebrew/english interlinear which doesn't "add" to the words.

I also avoid the KJV [Young's LT is a far better translation] and I believe that translation is the cause of a lot of rather "unbiblical doctrines" over the centuries. Just my humble opinion. Peace. :wave:

http://www.scripture4all.org/ [Fairly good interlinear]
(Young) Revelation 13:8 And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land [Israel/Judea], whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lambkin slain/slaughtered from the foundation of the world;
Ezekiel 7:1 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 "And you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD to the land of Israel: 'An end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land. 3 Now the end [has come] upon you, And I will send My anger against you; I will judge you according to your ways, And I will repay you for all your abominations.
 
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Catherineanne said:
True enough, but it is not just Moslems who do this. Christians are prone to the same failing, at times. :wave:

You are right, anyone can fall into this, technically speaking my post was a short statement of comparison of Books and the way God is being told within.

I am not sure that my reaction to spiritual ignorance would be so charitable as yours, however. I think I prefer to shed light on it, however dim and flickering, rather than allowing it to pass as acceptable behaviour.

I was not clear I am guessing, I didn't want to mean like "pass it as acceptable". Forgiveness of such behavior would of course follow a course of interaction with the individual, meaning that you are tolerant to continue to explain, the person you are addressing does not know any better, ignoring such behavior is similar to the part of Scripture that commands to shake the dust off the feet, as sometimes that is also necessary. I do mostly ignore most of the muslim comments around here about Christianity unless it really requires attention.

Nice wheels, btw. Not so sure about the outfit - makes you look like a bee. :D

You are funny :D Lord have mercy, that is my Heavenly outfit :) I don't know if I would need oxygen at altitude, but to have it in details, that is what it matters.
 
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ALRAJY

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(AL-Kahf 18:110)
"So whoever Hopes for the Meeting with his Lord, let him work Righteousness and Associate none as a partner in the worship Of His Lord"

NASAg03 = #304 said:
I wish I could have a reply to your Post, but I couldn't really Grasp anything From It, all what I can see, So Far, is a Collection Of Opinions. I read again and see If I get anything From It.

elf_lady_9 said:
hi alrajy:wave:
Hi Bethany, It was really nice to Hear From you. Nice Post

NASAg03 said:
As I previously mentioned, all three phases can exist at the triple point of water, or 0.006 atm and 0.01 deg F. At this point, ice, water, and vapor all exist at the same time, even though it is all water. different phases with different physical properties, yet all the same chemical composition (H2O). In addition, two phases can coexist at the same time at the phase boudary, meaning at 1 atm and 0 deg C, both Ice and Water coexist. some goes for 1 atm and 0 deg C, where water and vapor both exist
NASAg03 said:
And yes, the phases of water do coexist at the triple point, which i've said for the 4th time now
I can see that you desparately repeated this So many times. But I Afaraid that you Still get the Idea behind It. And in Order that eveyOne benefit From this, Lets Look back again.

One can see that the Normal Logical, rational answer to the Question (Does the Water Molecules exist as Solid, Liquid & Vapor ALL at the Same time ?) Is No Under normal Conditions. But there is an Exception, which is that Under Chemically modified Experimental Reactions It might Happen. The emphasis is On the word (Exception).

Now back to Trinity,

One can see that the Normal Logical, rational answer to the Questions:

Is GOD 1 in 3 ? No
Is GOD 3 in 1 ? No
Does GOD have 3 different Persons, Forms, Natures ? No
Is Trinity mentioned in the Bible ? No

and the List Goes On......

But there is an Exception, that is basically in your Brain & Imagination, there is this desire to Separate & Combine Parts Of GOD, and Come-up with an Overall.

The Emphasis again is On (Exception) where Water can exist in all Forms at Once via (Triple Point), and where Trinity can exists in all Forms at Once via (Imagination), But normally they don't, either In normal Daily Life as with Water, Or in the Bible as with Trinity.

Consequently, you Lead Us to the Conclousion that Christianity is Confined to the Limits Of Physical Law. Thanks

NASAg03 said:
now, lets apply this analogy to God. we believe God is omnipresent, meaning He can be everywhere. so God can be on earth and in Heaven at the same time. He transcends space and time, which allows Him to be everywhere at once.

When you state that God must be in one place or the other, you are confining God to the liimits of physical law, the law He created. God is not limited by physical law because He is omnipotent, or all powerful. And again, God is omnipresent and therefore beyond space constraints.
Saying that He can be anywhere, is Like sayiny He can be in the Toilet, in the Sweage, ...etc. Thus, containing His presence to that Cuboid-shaped Bathroom.

Also, when you talk about Manifestation, you are actually saying thay GOD become Contained within that Body, that bowed to all Phyiscal Laws Of this Life.

And I don't really see why you Hold to Such things, becuase If we Look at the Both:

In the OT

What did the People think of GOD ?

(2Ch 6:39) "Then hear thou From the Heavens, even From thy dwelling place, their prayer and their Supplications, and maintain their cause, and forgive thy people which have sinned against thee"

How did GOD Reply ?

(2Ch 7:14) "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my Face, and turn From their wicked ways; then will I hear From heaven, and will Forgive their sin, and will Heal their Land"

In the NT

(Matt 23:9) "And Call no man your father upon the earth: For one is your Father, which is in heaven"

(Matt 5:48) "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect"

(Matt 6:1) "Take heed that ye do not your Alms Before men, to be seen Of them: Otherwise ye Have no reward Of your Father which is in heaven"

(Matt 6:9) "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name"

This what's been said about the Presence Of GOD, where Jesus Christ even Emphasized On not Calling GOD in Earth. So I don't really see a Reason For your exaggrative Actions, Do you think It will get you Heaven ?

NASAg03 said:
Nope, you read that correctly. this entire section shows the Complexity of the Trinity, and also shows that the Godhead is three in one: Father, Son, and Spirit
Sorry, But Schizophrania Is what's ALL about

NASAg03 said:
No, because you are NOT a triune Being
You have 3 Ministries "Ministry Of Health, Ministry Of Education, Ministry Of Welfare" with 3 Ministers "Minister Of Health, Minister Of Education, Minister Of Welfare". Such that, even though, those guys Posses the Name a "Minister", but each One Of them practice This Authority in 3 Different ways, because they are 3 Different Persons with 3 Unique Characters.

Is it Same with GOD ? Having 3 Persons, Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all undergo the Same Concept Of GOD-Head but with 3 different Roles in Salavation.

Now do you worship 1 person Or 3 Persons ?

NASAg03 said:
Also, you Failed to touch on the fact that Jesus stated "Before Abraham, I AM", claiming that he existed before Abraham. That's something only God can do, and only God would do. But, that's why Jesus said It - because He was before Abraham because He is God
Take It easy my Friend, I think From reading the First 15 page, as you said, you be knowing now that I don't Forget anyting. But the thing is that I don't really like way Of Mixing things Up, get me One topic, like:

Does Trinity means GOD ?
Does Son Of GOD means GOD ?
Does Miracles makes Someone GOD ?

...etc, and Hopefully we all can Enjoy & benefit From what has been & will be Said.

Catherineanne said:
Do you realise what you are doing? You are trying to tell God what he can and cannot be, and what he can and cannot do.
My Friend, I think you are mistaking Here, becuase I didn't tell GOD that He can this, and can't be that. Conversly, GOD told me that He be such things. For example, He can't be a Man.

(Is 46:5) "To whom will ye liken me, and make me Equal, and Compare me, that we may be like?"

(Numbers 23:19) "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the Son Of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

See ! I don't really blame you thinking Of GOD as a man, becuase It is Kind Of a descendant Habit, where People For example, in the OT compared GOD to Tigers, Dragons, to Lambs, Or as a Wrestler. But It really makes me Sad to see those people doing a Blashemy against GOD by Speaking Off their minds, without really going to their Foundations. But Overall, I dont expect what I said to be Compulsory On You, either Accpet Or Reject, but the Only thing I could advice you with to the Read the Books, becuase you think you have Eternal Life.


I Feel exhausted now, Got to Go


Kind Regards
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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LittleLambofJesus said:
A lot of Muslims read the Qur'an in a "spiritual" way and really believe it is inspired by God. "Confusion" in christianity doesn't really help the Muslims [or non religions] better understand our Scriptures either.

I am not sure if I want to agree. As in traditional Christianity, sometimes your religion becomes your chore. Quite common in muslim circles, I was raised in a predominantly muslim country, haven't seen "spirituality" in my grandparents nor parents practicing their faith. They don't believe in an inspiration, they believe Quran is the EXACT same copy of what is in Heaven with Allah. His word. Exactly dictated. There are problems of course with this claim, and it just doesn't make sense if you know that we humans are not infallible to handle such Heavenly thing.

Unfortunately, a lot of christians do not read the Bible the same way, "spiritually", nor do I believe they delve deeply into translations. The Bible is poorly and loosely translated in almost all versions so I sometimes read it from a greek/hebrew/english interlinear which doesn't "add" to the words.

The Bible is poorly and loosely translated in almost all versions is a bit harsh, every language don't translate well into one another therefore Bible might get affected if you don't know what you are looking for is a more accurate statement here, in my opinion. I do also what you do only in case of a disputed verse, other than that Bible and its message is pretty straight forward.


I also avoid the KJV [Young's LT is a far better translation] and I believe that translation is the cause of a lot of rather "unbiblical doctrines" over the centuries. Just my humble opinion. Peace. :wave:

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, which proclaims the truth of Christ our Lord since the day of Pentecost, (33AD, more likely believed to be around 29AD, which also marks the beginning of the actual physical church) NKJV is being used. What matters is the collection method and cross matching of manuscripts that came to us. The YLT is a strictly literal and idiomatic rendering of the Original Greek Texts.The Greek Text followed is that generally recognized as the "Received Text," or the "Textus Receptus," from which the King James Version was translated. So there is no need to avoid KJV :)
 
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