Christians Over Here Please

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ALRAJY

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Hi All, How are you doing ? I really miss Everyone I had a Little Chat with in this Forum :clap: . I have been Occupied with some Studying Purposes For the Past 2 Months, and Currently Overwhelmd till my Nose :sick: .

Dunno really when to Finish, So in the Interest Of the Ones who Love Reading My Threads :thumbsup: , and might Remind them Of the Old days, I am gonna Pop-up all Of my threads.


Hope you all enjoying the Summer, See yaa !


Kind Regards
 
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NASAg03

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at work. will reply with a number of verses where Jesus plainly states He is God, to the point the Jewish religious leaders wanted to stone Him for blasphemy...

should be later tonight or in the morning. church though, although i can give up one day of church if it means reaching one unbeliever. :D
 
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NASAg03

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okay, done with work today. been on the evening shift at mission control here in Houston. fun times, although it is rather boring and all of our lauch data has been retrieved. our hardware is getting too cold to function, so not much to do other than read my book on Josephus Flavius, and check out christianforums :D

on a side note, last night we got to witness the ISS & space shuttle fly overhead. YOU CAN SEE IT! because it's a big metal object / white object, it serves to reflect the sun at night, allowing people below to see it oribit overhead. 200 miles above, and we can see it! they will pass over houston again tomorrow night at 9 pm, so we'll get another chance to see it. it looks like an airplane...moving at 17000 mph.

mike fossum (fellow aggie) did a space walk today to repair the ISS and do some mock repairs on the shuttle. his family selected "God of Wonders" as his wakeup song. He said it was very applicable considering what he got to witness floating out there in space.

anyway, onto the discussion at hand!

[makes herbal tea]

i'll break this up into a couple of parts, since the bulk of this thread has been either discussing the Trinity (part I) and the claims of Jesus Christ as God (part II).

Part I - The Trinity

Someone already used this analogy, but I'll use it again since it think it's the best one to grasp this concept.

water.

it has three phases, and seems like three different things. these phases can exist at different temperatures and pressures, even coexisting and triexisting (if that's a word) at the triple point.

now, we give them different names: vapor, water, and ice, because they seem like different elements. in fact, the behave like separate elements, vapor acting as a gas and being allowing to permiate everything, be breathed in, expand and fill a void, or be compressed.

this is the gas phase. realize it's still H2O, but it's in the gas phase. Think of the Vapor as the holy spirit. you can't see water vapor, and you can't see the holy spirit. but, vapor can enter you.

now, you have water. water flows, gives life to both plants and animals. but, it's still H2O - same essence as the vapor, but in a different form. think of the water liquid as Jesus, who calls Himself the Living Water.

finally, you have ice. this is solid water. it can be used to make igloos, sculptures, and when at the bottom of Anarctia, it's stronger than steel. but, it's still the same essence and chemcial structure as water and vapor. this if this solid water as Father God.

again, all these phases of H2O never change chemistry,but their phase and the purpose they serve can change. this doesn't mean they have separate purposes. the three phases compliment each other, and you can't have one without the other.

now, i hand you a block of ice, and i say "what is this?" you say ICE, because it's cold and solid. characteristics of this phase of water. but i say "it's H2O". i am right, because the essence of the ice is H2O, but the properties that it exhibits is that of ICE.

you say Jesus cannot be God because he exhibits the properties of Man, but at the same time we say He is God. So, He's teh Son of God and the Son of Man. He is God, displaying the features of Man in the flesh. it doesn't change what He is.

if you think about it long enough, the concept of water existing in 3 phases can be complicated enough. how can something exist all at once and be of the same essence, and yet be separate in form?

NO, THE TRINITY IS NOT LIKE A SHOE. a shoe has seperate parts of different chemistry and material. each part is separate, and can serve a different part separate from the rest.

Jesus repeatedly states that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. Later, the Spirit comes into Him, and then into His believers. Interesting that within water is ice, along with vapor, because the same chemical composition is within all three phases.

again. 1 element, 3 separate phases. ICE + WATER + VAPOR = H20. One element, three phases.

Part II - Jesus Christ, Son of God

33 Then those who were in the boat came and[c] worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.” - Matthew 14:33

13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”
14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[d] in heaven.” - Matthew 16:13-19

63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”
64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy!
What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! 66 What do you think?” - Matthew 26:63-66

20 When He saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.”
21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? 23 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise up and walk’? 24 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the man who was paralyzed, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”
25 Immediately he rose up before them, took up what he had been lying on, and departed to his own house, glorifying God. 26 And they were all amazed, and they glorified God and were filled with fear, saying, “We have seen strange things today!” - Matthew 5:20-25

In conclusion:

31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” - John 5:31-47

16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. - John 8:16

AND FINALLY, THE GRAND FINALE, PROOF THAT JESUS CLAIMED TO BE GOD:

(I'm surprised no one has quoted this one :D )

53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”
54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your[m] God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple,[n] going through the midst of them, and so passed by. - John 8:52-59

And again:

4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, “Whom are you seeking?”
5 They answered Him, “Jesus of Nazareth.”
Jesus said to them, “I am He.” And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. 6 Now when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
7 Then He asked them again, “Whom are you seeking?”
And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.”
8 Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am He. - John 18:4-8

notice Jesus calls Himself "I AM" 3 times :thumbsup:

more linkz:

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-i-am.htm
 
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NASAg03

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and now, it's 2:40 am here in Texas, and i am quite tired. i keep telling myself i'm going to stop this late night stuff, but yall keep me awake! kind of hungry too, might eat a sandwhich.

good night, and know that I am praying for everyone that reads this thread, hoping that God will open your eyes to the truth so that believing, you will see and know God, and seek a relationship with Him.

i dont just want you to believe in God, i want you to have a relationship with Him!
 
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NASAg03

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oh, and this thread has been a great read, all 15 pages of it (well, 30 pages for you 10 posts per pagers :D)

i have learned a lot about islam. eventually i would like to read the Q'uran, but i'm working on finishing the Bible first. I'm on my 2nd go at the NT. Only made it up to Jeremiah on the OT. I just can't get that much into it.

I never realized how much partial truth was contained within Islam. seems a lot like Mormanism, where you have an illiterate leader (mohammed / joseph smith) that runs off by himself, gets this magic book from "God", and perpetuates it as truth. in all actuality it just turns out to be a plagarism of the truth mixed with one man's personal desires. oh, and both promote polygomy. i'm not surprised...
 
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peaceful soul

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NASAg03 said:
oh, and this thread has been a great read, all 15 pages of it (well, 30 pages for you 10 posts per pagers :D)

i have learned a lot about islam. eventually i would like to read the Q'uran, but i'm working on finishing the Bible first. I'm on my 2nd go at the NT. Only made it up to Jeremiah on the OT. I just can't get that much into it.

I never realized how much partial truth was contained within Islam. seems a lot like Mormanism, where you have an illiterate leader (mohammed / joseph smith) that runs off by himself, gets this magic book from "God", and perpetuates it as truth. in all actuality it just turns out to be a plagarism of the truth mixed with one man's personal desires. oh, and both promote polygomy. i'm not surprised...

Try selling that idea to those of their repective faiths.:D I am sure they will gobble it up very eagerly. I do agree with you, but they don't see it as we do. They will think it is because we have to say this because we are Christians. The truth is that we see it because God gave us spiritual eyes to know truth from error.
 
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Adeeb

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NASAg03 said:
okay, done with work today. been on the evening shift at mission control here in Houston. fun times, although it is rather boring and all of our lauch data has been retrieved. our hardware is getting too cold to function, so not much to do other than read my book on Josephus Flavius, and check out christianforums :D

on a side note, last night we got to witness the ISS & space shuttle fly overhead. YOU CAN SEE IT! because it's a big metal object / white object, it serves to reflect the sun at night, allowing people below to see it oribit overhead. 200 miles above, and we can see it! they will pass over houston again tomorrow night at 9 pm, so we'll get another chance to see it. it looks like an airplane...moving at 17000 mph.

mike fossum (fellow aggie) did a space walk today to repair the ISS and do some mock repairs on the shuttle. his family selected "God of Wonders" as his wakeup song. He said it was very applicable considering what he got to witness floating out there in space.

anyway, onto the discussion at hand!

[makes herbal tea]

i'll break this up into a couple of parts, since the bulk of this thread has been either discussing the Trinity (part I) and the claims of Jesus Christ as God (part II).

Part I - The Trinity

Someone already used this analogy, but I'll use it again since it think it's the best one to grasp this concept.

water.

it has three phases, and seems like three different things. these phases can exist at different temperatures and pressures, even coexisting and triexisting (if that's a word) at the triple point.

now, we give them different names: vapor, water, and ice, because they seem like different elements. in fact, the behave like separate elements, vapor acting as a gas and being allowing to permiate everything, be breathed in, expand and fill a void, or be compressed.

this is the gas phase. realize it's still H2O, but it's in the gas phase. Think of the Vapor as the holy spirit. you can't see water vapor, and you can't see the holy spirit. but, vapor can enter you.

now, you have water. water flows, gives life to both plants and animals. but, it's still H2O - same essence as the vapor, but in a different form. think of the water liquid as Jesus, who calls Himself the Living Water.

finally, you have ice. this is solid water. it can be used to make igloos, sculptures, and when at the bottom of Anarctia, it's stronger than steel. but, it's still the same essence and chemcial structure as water and vapor. this if this solid water as Father God.

again, all these phases of H2O never change chemistry,but their phase and the purpose they serve can change. this doesn't mean they have separate purposes. the three phases compliment each other, and you can't have one without the other.

now, i hand you a block of ice, and i say "what is this?" you say ICE, because it's cold and solid. characteristics of this phase of water. but i say "it's H2O". i am right, because the essence of the ice is H2O, but the properties that it exhibits is that of ICE.

you say Jesus cannot be God because he exhibits the properties of Man, but at the same time we say He is God. So, He's teh Son of God and the Son of Man. He is God, displaying the features of Man in the flesh. it doesn't change what He is.

if you think about it long enough, the concept of water existing in 3 phases can be complicated enough. how can something exist all at once and be of the same essence, and yet be separate in form?

NO, THE TRINITY IS NOT LIKE A SHOE. a shoe has seperate parts of different chemistry and material. each part is separate, and can serve a different part separate from the rest.

Jesus repeatedly states that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. Later, the Spirit comes into Him, and then into His believers. Interesting that within water is ice, along with vapor, because the same chemical composition is within all three phases.

again. 1 element, 3 separate phases. ICE + WATER + VAPOR = H20. One element, three phases.

Part II - Jesus Christ, Son of God

33 Then those who were in the boat came and[c] worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.” - Matthew 14:33

13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”
14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[d] in heaven.” - Matthew 16:13-19

63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”
64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! 66 What do you think?” - Matthew 26:63-66

20 When He saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.”
21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? 23 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise up and walk’? 24 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the man who was paralyzed, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”
25 Immediately he rose up before them, took up what he had been lying on, and departed to his own house, glorifying God. 26 And they were all amazed, and they glorified God and were filled with fear, saying, “We have seen strange things today!” - Matthew 5:20-25

In conclusion:

31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” - John 5:31-47

16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. - John 8:16

AND FINALLY, THE GRAND FINALE, PROOF THAT JESUS CLAIMED TO BE GOD:

(I'm surprised no one has quoted this one :D )

53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”
54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your[m] God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple,[n] going through the midst of them, and so passed by. - John 8:52-59

And again:

4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, “Whom are you seeking?”
5 They answered Him, “Jesus of Nazareth.”
Jesus said to them, “I am He.” And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. 6 Now when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
7 Then He asked them again, “Whom are you seeking?”
And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.”
8 Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am He. - John 18:4-8

notice Jesus calls Himself "I AM" 3 times :thumbsup:

more linkz:

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-i-am.htm

I am not going to get into a rebuttal but I have to say one thing. You used the example of H2O to compare to the trinity. However this is a bad analogy. H2O as we know has three phases but H2O can only exist as one phase at a time. It can't be both solid and liquid at the same time. its either solid, liquid or gas at one given time.
If we were to apply this analogy to the trinity then it would be that the 3 members cannot be in existence at the same time.
 
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Catherineanne

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Adeeb said:
If we were to apply this analogy to the trinity then it would be that the 3 members cannot be in existence at the same time.


Adeeb, in the hope that you are asking a question to listen to the answer, rather than just to discount it, here is my reply:

Christians have only one God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is only one God. All three (the Trinity) are attested in the very first book of the Bible; the Book of Genesis, and this is therefore not a late Christian invention.

In the same way, Moslems have only one God, with 99 different names, we have one God with three names. Any of those three names can be addressed, and it is God who is addressed. Any characteristic of one, will be a characteristic of all, however, Christians by consensus ascribe certain characteristics in particular to each one. So we might regard God as Love, and Christ as Mercy and the Spirit as Creator, but these are all interchangeable, just as your 99 names are interchangeable, and do not cancel one another out, but are cumulative. Your 99 names do not define nor limit the Creator, and neither does the concept of the Trinity, but it is our way of expressing what our faith has found to be true.

If you think that we have 3, then by your own rationale, you have 99.

Your choice. :wave:
 
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peaceful soul

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Adeeb said:
I am not going to get into a rebuttal but I have to say one thing. You used the example of H2O to compare to the trinity. However this is a bad analogy. H2O as we know has three phases but H2O can only exist as one phase at a time. It can't be both solid and liquid at the same time. its either solid, liquid or gas at one given time.
If we were to apply this analogy to the trinity then it would be that the 3 members cannot be in existence at the same time.

All analogies will fail at some point. The only thing that one can do is to get the principle of things explained. There is no perfect analogy. God can not be explained by pure human logic and examples from our 3D world. I hope that is obvious.

Words of wisdom: try to get the basic picture as it relates to the analogy. Don't try to find loopholes only. If you focus on the loopholes, you will inevitablly not get the rest of the picture being presented.
 
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Adeeb

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peaceful soul said:
All analogies will fail at some point. The only thing that one can do is to get the principle of things explained. There is no perfect analogy. God can not be explained by pure human logic and examples from our 3D world. I hope that is obvious.

Words of wisdom: try to get the basic picture as it relates to the analogy. Don't try to find loopholes only. If you focus on the loopholes, you will inevitablly not get the rest of the picture being presented.
if an analogy fails in its most important point then it is not worth stating. And you said it correctly, there is no analogy that can grasp the trinity.

Words of Wisdom: the trinity is beyond logic and comprehension so refrain from using analogies to describe it.
 
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Adeeb

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Catherineanne said:
Adeeb, in the hope that you are asking a question to listen to the answer, rather than just to discount it, here is my reply:

Christians have only one God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is only one God. All three (the Trinity) are attested in the very first book of the Bible; the Book of Genesis, and this is therefore not a late Christian invention.

In the same way, Moslems have only one God, with 99 different names, we have one God with three names. Any of those three names can be addressed, and it is God who is addressed. Any characteristic of one, will be a characteristic of all, however, Christians by consensus ascribe certain characteristics in particular to each one. So we might regard God as Love, and Christ as Mercy and the Spirit as Creator, but these are all interchangeable, just as your 99 names are interchangeable, and do not cancel one another out, but are cumulative. Your 99 names do not define nor limit the Creator, and neither does the concept of the Trinity, but it is our way of expressing what our faith has found to be true.

If you think that we have 3, then by your own rationale, you have 99.

Your choice. :wave:
nope. it is not 99 names, rather it is 99 attributes or qualities such as "the all-knowing" or "the most exalted". You have three names of three Gods. We have one God with 99 attributes. Big difference.
 
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NASAg03

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Adeeb said:
I am not going to get into a rebuttal but I have to say one thing. You used the example of H2O to compare to the trinity. However this is a bad analogy. H2O as we know has three phases but H2O can only exist as one phase at a time. It can't be both solid and liquid at the same time. its either solid, liquid or gas at one given time.
If we were to apply this analogy to the trinity then it would be that the 3 members cannot be in existence at the same time.

no, the example of H2O is one of the best analogies you can use to describe the Trinity. if you read my post again, you will see that i already stated that the three phases can all exist at once. this point is called the "triple point".

WikiPedia "triple point" said:
In physics, the triple point of a substance is the temperature and pressure at which three phases (gas, liquid, and solid) of that substance may coexist in thermodynamic equilibrium.

I would show a phase diagram, but i dont have enough posts to do that. if you still doubt me, then you can google "triple point" yourself to get a better understanding. a lack of scientific knowledge and understanding on your part does not constitute a bad analogy on my part.

regardless, every analogy (or parable) will have short comings because they are attempting to describle the metaphysical using the physical. we are trying to describe what the Trinity is LIKE, not what it is. we are trying to convey a concept, not a definition. you cannot read so much into an analogy or parable.

in the same manner, the parable of the 10 virgins is conveying the message to be ready for the kingdome of God, and that not everyone will be ready when Christ returns. Jesus was using parables that they would understand.

if you read the parable of the prodigal son, you may think that Christ condones sin and debauchery, so long as we eventually come back to God. this is wrong and in direct contradition to the parable of the 10 virgins, which conveys that we should always be ready for teh coming of Christ. rather, the prodigal son is used to show God's unconditional love for us, and that if we come back to Him, He will always accept us back with love and even with a party.

message of the prodigal son: unconditional love of God, NOT endorsement of a life of sin, waste, and debauchery

message of the 10 virgins: be ready for the coming of Christ, NOT endorsement of polygomy.

Matthew 13:10-17

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:


‘ Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should[a]heal them.’[b]
16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
 
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NASAg03

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Adeeb said:
if an analogy fails in its most important point then it is not worth stating. And you said it correctly, there is no analogy that can grasp the trinity.

Words of Wisdom: the trinity is beyond logic and comprehension so refrain from using analogies to describe it.

there is no analogy that can fully describe the God, or the kingdome of God. and yet Jesus still used many parables (anecdotal analogies) in attempt to give understanding to those who did not. He was trying to describe God to those who did not believe in God, and he was doing it using stories they would understand.

as you have stated, no one can fully understand the Trinity. in that same regard, no one can fully understand God.

DO YOU FULLY UNDERSTAND ALLAH? no, you cannot understand your god because he is greater than you and above your understanding. and yet you still believe in him and seek to please him. you believe in Allah even though you dont understand him, correct?

in the same manner, we do not fully understand God, Jesus, or His Spirit, or even how the three coexist. but we still believe, because all three exist. and yet, all three are God. God did not ask us to understand Him, but to believe in Him, and will that belief He will give us understanding and knowledge.

You statement that "I can't believe in the Trinity because I can't understand it" is no different than an atheist stating "I can't believe in Allah because I can't understand him".

Are you getting the point yet???

EDIT: Lots of typos. I've gotta slow down my typing.
 
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LJSGM

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Acts 2:38 (New International Version)



38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

For those of you that might not have a lot of knowledge in the word of God. The best way for me to describe the trinity of God is by using yourself as an anaology.

Genesis 1:27 (New International Version)


27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We have a body, soul and spirit and you were created this way in the image of God.

You have all three of these things that make up you, but you would still call yourself "one" person.
 
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peaceful soul

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NASAg03 said:
there is no analogy that can fully describe the God, or the kingdome of God. and yet Jesus still used many parables (anecdotal analogies) in attempt to give understanding to those who did not. He was trying to describe God to those who did not believe in God, and he was doing it using stories they would understand.

as you have stated, no one can fully understand the Trinity. in that same regard, no one can fully understand God.

DO YOU FULLY UNDERSTAND ALLAH? no, you cannot understand your god because he is greater than you and above your understanding. and yet you still believe in him and seek to please him. you believe in Allah even though you dont understand him, correct?

in the same manner, we do not fully understand God, Jesus, or His Spirit, or even how the three coexist. but we still believe, because all three exist. and yet, all three are God. God did not ask us to understand Him, but to believe in Him, and will that belief He will give us understanding and knowledge.

You statement that "I can't believe in the Trinity because I can't understand it" is no different than an atheist stating "I can't believe in Allah because I can't understand him".

Are you getting the point yet???

EDIT: Lots of typos. I've gotta slow down my typing.

You are very much on point!:thumbsup: This is an excellent reply. This is exactly the kind of thought that I have employed with them too, along with others. I have even told them that even God did not disclose His full nature and essence to the Jews either. He told them not to worship other gods and that God is ONE. The context given was that God was not many gods, but only one God that incorporated all things. But, Jews and Muslims take some kind of license to box God in to what they want to form him around without understanding that God never gave them that understanding. He only stated that He is ONE God and not many gods as the pagans saw god. They had gods for all parts of their life - a god for this and that. Paul rehashed this concept when he spoke to the Greeks about the unknown god. I don't know how they took that out of its context and presumed that God had to into fit their minds or their stipulated view. I would urge the Jews, especially since the Muslims copied the concept from them, to show in the TANAKH where God gave information that ONE was exclusive to their understanding. God only gave them progressive understanding of part of His nature- not His total existence. It is repeated throughout the OT by God to trust Him and enter into a relationship with Him and nothing to exclude His existence from being things other than what they had come to believe and accept.

Here is Deut 6:4 + a few other verses to ilustrate a point.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Deu 6:13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.
Deu 6:14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;
Deu 6:15 (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.


The essence of this chapter is that there is only ONE God, and He is the God or Israel; so, all other gods that are part of the pagan worship are to be distinguished from the God of Israel by God making a distinction in Israel's worship. That is why the commandments were given to Israel - to distinguish them, i.e., make them Holy unto Him (God). There is nothing here in this context for Jews to make any claims of any kind other that what is clearly stated (at least I hope it is clear). Now , maybe they have other passages that they quote in their defense, but this one can not be used for that purpose.

Now moving moving on to the NT. Paul basically states the same thing to the Greeks as in Deut., but with a little bit more flare.

Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

_____________________________________________________

Proposition: Exactly what does oneness mean in terms of God? Can anyone truly define it without any ambiguities? I don't think so.
 
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peaceful soul

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Adeeb said:
if an analogy fails in its most important point then it is not worth stating. And you said it correctly, there is no analogy that can grasp the trinity.

Words of Wisdom: the trinity is beyond logic and comprehension so refrain from using analogies to describe it.

Like I said, they are supposed to be teaching tools. You are suppose to extract the parts out that tell the story which is trying to be relayed. Have you ever used an analogy that was not perfect but used it anyways while explaining that if you leave out this part of the analogy, you will understand what is meant? You act as if you don't do these type of things in real life. Somehow when it comes to God, your brain should freeze whereby you are not able to apply the same type of thought in understanding as you commonly do with all other things.:confused:
 
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Catherineanne

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Adeeb said:
Words of Wisdom: the trinity is beyond logic and comprehension so refrain from using analogies to describe it.

Will Moslems refrain from using the 99 names of their God, just because God himself is above and beyond those 99 names?

Your suggestion is puerile.
 
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Catherineanne

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Adeeb said:
nope. it is not 99 names, rather it is 99 attributes or qualities such as "the all-knowing" or "the most exalted". You have three names of three Gods. We have one God with 99 attributes. Big difference.

Again, you set yourselves up to judge other people and their faith, and by doing so reveal the fallacies in your faith.

Speaking in this way is taking God's place, and breaks the first commandment.

I have one God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

And guess what? You are not Him. :)
 
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Exegete12

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Adeeb said:
nope. it is not 99 names, rather it is 99 attributes or qualities such as "the all-knowing" or "the most exalted". You have three names of three Gods. We have one God with 99 attributes. Big difference.

We do not pray in the NameS of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. But rather in the NAME (single here Adeeb and others) of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Oh the 99 names. Did you know the 100th name is Isa. ;) It was a secret kept until now.

Salaam.
 
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