okay, done with work today. been on the evening shift at mission control here in Houston. fun times, although it is rather boring and all of our lauch data has been retrieved. our hardware is getting too cold to function, so not much to do other than read my book on Josephus Flavius, and check out christianforums
on a side note, last night we got to witness the ISS & space shuttle fly overhead. YOU CAN SEE IT! because it's a big metal object / white object, it serves to reflect the sun at night, allowing people below to see it oribit overhead. 200 miles above, and we can see it! they will pass over houston again tomorrow night at 9 pm, so we'll get another chance to see it. it looks like an airplane...moving at 17000 mph.
mike fossum (fellow aggie) did a space walk today to repair the ISS and do some mock repairs on the shuttle. his family selected "God of Wonders" as his wakeup song. He said it was very applicable considering what he got to witness floating out there in space.
anyway, onto the discussion at hand!
[makes herbal tea]
i'll break this up into a couple of parts, since the bulk of this thread has been either discussing the Trinity (part I) and the claims of Jesus Christ as God (part II).
Part I - The Trinity
Someone already used this analogy, but I'll use it again since it think it's the best one to grasp this concept.
water.
it has three phases, and seems like three different things. these phases can exist at different temperatures and pressures, even coexisting and triexisting (if that's a word) at the triple point.
now, we give them different names: vapor, water, and ice, because they seem like different elements. in fact, the behave like separate elements, vapor acting as a gas and being allowing to permiate everything, be breathed in, expand and fill a void, or be compressed.
this is the gas phase. realize it's still H2O, but it's in the gas phase. Think of the Vapor as the holy spirit. you can't see water vapor, and you can't see the holy spirit. but, vapor can enter you.
now, you have water. water flows, gives life to both plants and animals. but, it's still H2O - same essence as the vapor, but in a different form. think of the water liquid as Jesus, who calls Himself the Living Water.
finally, you have ice. this is solid water. it can be used to make igloos, sculptures, and when at the bottom of Anarctia, it's stronger than steel. but, it's still the same essence and chemcial structure as water and vapor. this if this solid water as Father God.
again, all these phases of H2O never change chemistry,but their phase and the purpose they serve can change. this doesn't mean they have separate purposes. the three phases compliment each other, and you can't have one without the other.
now, i hand you a block of ice, and i say "what is this?" you say ICE, because it's cold and solid. characteristics of this phase of water. but i say "it's H2O". i am right, because the essence of the ice is H2O, but the properties that it exhibits is that of ICE.
you say Jesus cannot be God because he exhibits the properties of Man, but at the same time we say He is God. So, He's teh Son of God and the Son of Man. He is God, displaying the features of Man in the flesh. it doesn't change what He is.
if you think about it long enough, the concept of water existing in 3 phases can be complicated enough. how can something exist all at once and be of the same essence, and yet be separate in form?
NO, THE TRINITY IS NOT LIKE A SHOE. a shoe has seperate parts of different chemistry and material. each part is separate, and can serve a different part separate from the rest.
Jesus repeatedly states that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. Later, the Spirit comes into Him, and then into His believers. Interesting that within water is ice, along with vapor, because the same chemical composition is within all three phases.
again. 1 element, 3 separate phases. ICE + WATER + VAPOR = H20. One element, three phases.
Part II - Jesus Christ, Son of God
33 Then those who were in the boat came and[
c]
worshiped Him, saying, Truly You are the Son of God. - Matthew 14:33
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?
14 So they said, Some
say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.
15
He said to them, But who do you say that I am?
16 Simon Peter answered and said,
You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 Jesus answered and said to him,
Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[
d] in heaven. - Matthew 16:13-19
63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him,
I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!
64 Jesus said to him,
It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! 66 What do you think? - Matthew 26:63-66
20 When He saw their faith,
He said to him, Man, your sins are forgiven you.
21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this who speaks blasphemies?
Who can forgive sins but God alone?
22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, Why are you reasoning in your hearts? 23 Which is easier, to say, Your sins are forgiven you, or to say, Rise up and walk? 24 But that you may know that the
Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sinsHe said to the man who was paralyzed, I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.
25 Immediately he rose up before them, took up what he had been lying on, and departed to his own house, glorifying God. 26 And they were all amazed, and they glorified God and were filled with fear, saying, We have seen strange things today! - Matthew 5:20-25
In conclusion:
31 If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have a greater witness than Johns; for the works which the Father has given Me to finishthe very works that I dobear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
41 I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Fathers name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that
comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is
one who accuses youMoses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words? - John 5:31-47
16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for
I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. - John 8:16
AND FINALLY, THE GRAND FINALE, PROOF THAT JESUS CLAIMED TO BE GOD:
(I'm surprised no one has quoted this one
)
53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?
54 Jesus answered, If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your[
m] God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, I do not know Him, I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw
it and was glad.
57 Then the Jews said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said to them,
Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple,[
n] going through the midst of them, and so passed by. - John 8:52-59
And again:
4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, Whom are you seeking?
5 They answered Him, Jesus of Nazareth.
Jesus said to them,
I am He. And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. 6 Now when He said to them,
I am He, they drew back and fell to the ground.
7 Then He asked them again, Whom are you seeking?
And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.
8 Jesus answered, I have told you that
I am He. - John 18:4-8
notice Jesus calls Himself "I AM" 3 times
more linkz:
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-i-am.htm