Ethics in dating: Pursuing someone already in a relationship(non-marriage)?

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Gilbertgrape

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Some day you are going to hit on the wrong girl.

One of these girls you persue will be going out with a Man who will challenge you right back. And by 'Challenge back' I mean he will make you scamper like a lil dog with his tail between his scrawny legs.

And I wouldn't think much of any Woman who drops their current boyfriend in favor of a guy who has done this on several occassions(Goes after girls who are already dating) like you claim to have done. Obviously these "Women" are unable to recognise a mature guy who is after a serious relationship when they run of with a player. But if they choose to do so, then that is what they have chosen. Just hope they recognise it was their choice when he moves onto the next one.

Oh, and if I was dumped for some guy like that it would be a blessing in disguise that it happened now rather than later. I'd be free to find someone really special.
 
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Macrina

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mrkguy75 said:
You speak of dating as if it was marriage :(. Yeah, if a guy hits on a married woman, he's a creep. This shouldn't be the case when people are merely dating.

It's sad to see just how pervasive this attitude is. Emotional fornication is rampant, and within just a handful of dates, people declare themselves item. Barely even knowing each other, they become exclusive... possibly throwing away years by living in fear (or even sin) with someone that they don't even like very much.

Give me the 1950s, when dating was dating. (or so I've heard)

I wonder if we are talking of different kinds of "relationships." I use the word to refer to a committed, serious type of thing, not just someone you went for coffee with once or twice.

If I accept a man's invitation to lunch or something, I'm not agreeing to be his girlfriend. We can spend more time together and explore the possibility of a relationship without commitment, but once I get to the point where I call him my "boyfriend," that means I care for him enough that I want to explore the serious possibilities there. Not committed like marriage, but committed in the sense that I want to explore that possibility.

If I am "in a relationship" with someone, it means that I find enough potential there to warrant my serious attention; I would not be interested in dividing my attention with another man while I am trying to build something real with the first guy.

Now if I started developing very serious feelings for someone else while I was in a relationship, that might be a sign that the relationship wasn't going where it should and wasn't going to be viable for the long-term. That could be a factor in helping me realize I needed to break it off, but I wouldn't start a second relationship until I had "completed" the first. I also wouldn't transfer my affections to someone who tried to interrupt a serious relationship -- that's just not the way I'm wired emotionally.

I think it's fine if people want to date such that they are non-exclusive -- but when it becomes exclusive, that's a decision that the people in the relationship have made, and I would want it respected.
 
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Macrina

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fungku said:
What guy would want to be a "back-up boyfriend" anyway ^_^

Eddy Murphy has another (more vulgar) term for it in one of his routines, but from my experiences, I find a lot of women keep some nice guy friends around "just in case".


Oops, I think what I said came out wrong. :doh:

What I meant was that I might form a friendship with one guy while I was dating another -- an actual friendship, not a "just in case" situation. I'm a friends-first kind of girl, anyway.

It would be possible that down the road, after I had broken up with the guy I was dating, and had a little time to get over it and all that, then I might look at my friend and think, "wow, you know, I never noticed this, but there could be potential here." At that point, I would welcome his initiative in the situation. So he never was seen as a backup boyfriend, but as a valued friend. Then one day, whoah, hey, maybe something more could happen.

On the other hand, if the same guy had chosen to take initiative while I was dating someone, then I wouldn't be interested and it would sabotage the friendship. He would be much better off letting me make my own decision about the boyfriend, trusting that I know what's best for myself, and then later when I was available he could see if my feelings toward him had changed.

I didn't mean to imply that I kept guy friends around like spare tires. I value my friendship with them intrinsically, not as a backup plan for romance.
 
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Macrina

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Achichem said:
That highly encouraging to hear Macrina, now if only more girls followed :)

Well, I think there are more out there like me. Maybe we're just the type that tends to fly under the guys' radar more often than not -- less likely to be on the lookout for a relationship and sending signals. I don't know, but I do know that my female friends share my opinion. The mentality you describe sounds like sort of an immature teenage approach where one feels one "must" have a boyfriend out of insecurity.


Achichem said:
I hope this isn’t too personal, if so just ignore, but have you even had to face the issue(if so,was it tough)?

Yes, I have been in the position of having someone interested in me when I was in a relationship. In one situation, a guy that would have been attractive otherwise didn't come off very well when he was flirtatious with me, knowing I had a serious boyfriend. In another situation, a guy was interested in me while I was in a relationship, but I didn't know it at the time. He became my best friend and later on expressed interest... which is a whole different story. These are different from situations where I had just gone out with a guy once or twice and someone else wanted to express interest... these were committed relationship situations.

I have only had two serious boyfriends -- but that goes back to the fact that I don't feel the need to have someone constantly. Maybe I'm just wired differently from the women you've met -- but for me, I don't want to date just anybody. In fact, if I could do it all over again, I would tell my younger self not to get involved with those two guys -- I'm really only interested in a relationship that would lead to marriage.

Achichem said:
I believe you however I have my reservations (given my experience in the matter) quite frankly attraction doesn't seem to be a choice.

No, attraction isn't a choice, but dating is.

Achichem said:
Again not to be offensive, I have the highest respect, but this to me is a classic example of what I call mind vs instinct and frankly the mind never wins…oh but does it ever sabotage (the number one enemy of being seduced IMHO).

Well, I think all parts of a person come into play together -- at least they do for me. Thoughts and feelings are connected. I find certain behavior unattractive at a visceral level as well as intellectually. It would be an emotional response as well as a thought response, for me.

Achichem said:
Fair enough

I like a man who respects himself, other people, and me. He can communicate that respect, in part, by honoring the decisions of others.

Achichem said:
Often I wish more women thought like you…but given most(at least in my experience) don’t I am left very confused.

Well thanks... but again, I think there are more of us out here. Maybe we're just not as obvious as some of the others.

Also, I'd like to point out to you that you don't need a whole bunch of women to respond to you in the right way. You only need one -- I would argue that you only need one in your entire lifetime. It's okay if the rest don't happen for some reason... you can only marry one of them, anyway.
 
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Scotty_Aussie87

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hmm it is confusing, my simple answer is its very wrong, this is mainly because i've been stupid enough to be one of those "purses" and "purses" have feelings too! anyway i have seen it in a good light once as my friend who is a decent fulla and christian broke his current girlfriend up with someone who was into drugs and in general the wrong crowd. And they very much love each other. but still i feel terrible after ii know a girlfriend broke up with me cos some other guy muscled in so to speak, it makes me feel lesser when i might not actually be.
 
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Miles

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Macrina said:
I wonder if we are talking of different kinds of "relationships." I use the word to refer to a committed, serious type of thing, not just someone you went for coffee with once or twice.
Our shades of meaning aren't quite the same. I'm not arguing with your opinion on the subject as much as trying to make a point while simultaneously trying to hone my own views on the matter (it seems this approach isn't uncommon for INTPs).

How can one tell, from a distance, whether a dating relationship is 'healthy & serious' or not? Is it really all that bad to find out first hand? Does asking make the guy (or girl, depending on the situation) a bad person?

Macrina said:
If I accept a man's invitation to lunch or something, I'm not agreeing to be his girlfriend. We can spend more time together and explore the possibility of a relationship without commitment, but once I get to the point where I call him my "boyfriend," that means I care for him enough that I want to explore the serious possibilities there. Not committed like marriage, but committed in the sense that I want to explore that possibility.
I guess I've seen too many 'serious relationships' that are simply for the sake appearing to have a relationship. How can one really tell the difference at first glance?

Macrina said:
If I am "in a relationship" with someone, it means that I find enough potential there to warrant my serious attention; I would not be interested in dividing my attention with another man while I am trying to build something real with the first guy.
Fair enough. I can understand not wanting to divide one's attention when pursuing a serious relationship with someone... but that's not what I'm suggesting.

Macrina said:
Now if I started developing very serious feelings for someone else while I was in a relationship, that might be a sign that the relationship wasn't going where it should and wasn't going to be viable for the long-term. That could be a factor in helping me realize I needed to break it off, but I wouldn't start a second relationship until I had "completed" the first. I also wouldn't transfer my affections to someone who tried to interrupt a serious relationship -- that's just not the way I'm wired emotionally.
I appreciate your need for closure, not wanting to end serious relationships at the drop of a hat. Personally, when it comes to engagement etc, I have a similar outlook. But how is one supposed to know just how serious the relationship is? Experience tells me that people like to put up facades and/or date just because that's what they think they're supposed to do (as opposed to sharing a strong bond or attraction to the person they're dating). What harm can come of finding out the true nature of the relationship? It's not as though a truly strong, exclusive relationship, perhaps a month or two away from engagement, is going to fail just because of some random person that doesn't know better.

Macrina said:
I think it's fine if people want to date such that they are non-exclusive -- but when it becomes exclusive, that's a decision that the people in the relationship have made, and I would want it respected.
I guess I've seen too many dating 'relationships' turn out to be more about convenience and insecurity, than a mutual desire to pursue a potentially life-long relationship. When such become 'exclusive' there seems to be quite a bit of emotional fornication, or at least a lack of respect for each other. If someone is in a relationship for a other reason than than true mutual interest, then it is probably based on the selfishness of one or both people. I do not see the problem with finding out if this is the case, and if so, pursuing a real relationship with the person you click with (provided they break up with the person they're not into).




Anyway, this is obviously not an ideal situation. I've never pursued anyone that appeared to be in a serious (or even casual) dating relationship. In the past, I avoided it like the plague, but now I'm not so sure. I've been noticing more dating relationships that people may actually want to get out of, but stay in for a variety of reasons.

Contemporary Christian culture tells people to commit from the very beginning (courting), even when the couple may turn out to have serious and has serious compatibility issues. I don't condone cheating or whatnot, but I do think singles should be honest, feel free to make decisions for themselves, and not be pressured to stick with something that isn't really there to begin with. I also think it's wrong to judge someone for the simple act of finding out if such a relationship is real or not (the first step of pursuit is finding out if someone is actually available).
 
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Echoespeak006

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Once again, I'm going to have to go with Mac on this one. I do think there is a slight difference between pursuing someone who is in the casual dating stage and someone who is in a relationship (regardless of how bad YOU may perceive it.) If this woman has an understanding with her dating partner that they are exclusive, then you just have to respect that. If they don't then, yeah, you're free to pursue.

Either way, I'm just saying be careful. A friend of mind ended up in the hospital with a concussion because of a "misunderstanding" over a female friend of mine.
 
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Miles

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Echoespeak006 said:
If this woman has an understanding with her dating partner that they are exclusive, then you just have to respect that. If they don't then, yeah, you're free to pursue.
I agree 100%. If they truly are an item, then you should respect it... but sometimes it's a big 'if'.

Echoespeak006 said:
Either way, I'm just saying be careful. A friend of mind ended up in the hospital with a concussion because of a "misunderstanding" over a female friend of mine.
See, that's the kind of situation one needs to avoid. As I said earlier, the first part of pursuit is finding out if she's really available.
 
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Princess Pea

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mrkguy75 said:
How can one tell, from a distance, whether a dating relationship is 'healthy & serious' or not? Is it really all that bad to find out first hand? Does asking make the guy (or girl, depending on the situation) a bad person?

Asking is fine, but you'd have to be discreet about it. You might ask mutual friends of the couple - "Hey, what's up with those two? I see them together a lot - are they serious?" Or, depending on how well you know them, you could ask ONE of them "So, how long have you two been seeing each other? Any plans?" But again, you have to be discreet and tactful. It's probably not a great idea to ask two people when they're together if they're planning to get married unless you're certain that they are (and if you're certain they are, there's no point in asking! :doh: ) And if the answer is that they're serious about each other, you have to respect that, no matter what your observations might tell you.

mrkguy75 said:
I guess I've seen too many dating 'relationships' turn out to be more about convenience and insecurity, than a mutual desire to pursue a potentially life-long relationship. When such become 'exclusive' there seems to be quite a bit of emotional fornication, or at least a lack of respect for each other. If someone is in a relationship for a other reason than than true mutual interest, then it is probably based on the selfishness of one or both people. I do not see the problem with finding out if this is the case, and if so, pursuing a real relationship with the person you click with (provided they break up with the person they're not into).

You have a point, but I'm still uneasy with the whole idea of interfering with anyone else's relationship in any way. Even if they are just hanging onto each other out of convenience, that's still their business, you know? One exception might be if they're obviously and unquestionably abusing each other. But if they're just not into each other they really do have to figure that out for themselves.


mrkguy75 said:
Contemporary Christian culture tells people to commit from the very beginning (courting), even when the couple may turn out to have serious and has serious compatibility issues. I don't condone cheating or whatnot, but I do think singles should be honest, feel free to make decisions for themselves, and not be pressured to stick with something that isn't really there to begin with. I also think it's wrong to judge someone for the simple act of finding out if such a relationship is real or not (the first step of pursuit is finding out if someone is actually available).

I agree with you there. There are some very ... unconventional ... ideas floating around concerning God's role and will in romantic relationships. I've seen some very ... unexpected ... relationships too, some of them right here on CF. But I've also seen outsiders to the relationship in question talk until they're blue in the face (or on this forum, type until their fingers fall off) trying to get the people inside the relationship to see the light, and I've never seen any of their arguments make the slightest difference. People seem to become blind, deaf, and unable to understand common sense in some of these situations. Frankly, I think those are definite signs of an unhealthy relationship, but my point is this: Until the people in the relationship decide for themselves that they want to break it off, they're just not going to. They do sometimes get very angry with the people who are "trying to break us up", though. :doh:

I guess if you're interested in someone who's in a relationship but not married, all you can do is keep an eye on things for a while. If you see them break up, THEN approach the person and say something like "For obvious reasons I couldn't say this before, but I'd love to take you out for coffee sometime when you're ready to start dating again. Let me know when you're ready, OK?" And continue to be friendly, and maybe even ask again when an appropriate amount of time has passed. If I were the woman in question, I'd respond well to that - assuming I was interested in the new suitor. :)
 
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Achichem

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Gilbertgrape said:
Some day you are going to hit on the wrong girl.
I’ve already had this(a few times), and it part of what makes me so confused. The reason I don’t scamper with my tail between my legs is because where I grew up, we learned to deal with this kind of thing very early on, so I don’t care if were talking about a Russian drug tsar, they lay off when push comes to shove[they only get influence in my world when I have a family that they threaten or hurt] else they can only hurt themselves.

So thanks for the heads up, but I think that not a good reason for me to cut these women off.
And I wouldn't think much of any Woman who drops their current boyfriend in favor of a guy who has done this on several occassions(Goes after girls who are already dating) like you claim to have done. Obviously these "Women" are unable to recognise a mature guy who is after a serious relationship when they run of with a player.
That cool, but I disagree, in my opinion it is the “possessive” or “nice” guy whose not mature and who has the childish relationship. Most of my relationships are very serious and very committed, and since I’m not just after sex I hardly see how just because I predominantly date “attached” women makes me a player. I would be lying if I said I didn’t have issues that has in the past prevented it turning into marriage, but I am working hard on fixings those and I hardly see why just because I am “good” with women should make me into a bad guy.

But if they choose to do so, then that is what they have chosen. Just hope they recognise it was their choice when he moves onto the next one.
I don’t just move on to the next one, and I am sure there are other guys like me. You assume a lot just because women like to date me.

Oh, and if I was dumped for some guy like that it would be a blessing in disguise that it happened now rather than later. I'd be free to find someone really special.
Exactly!
 
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Princess Pea

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maycontainnuts said:
I can't believe people even have to ask these kinds of questions.

Yeah, well, they do. That's because there really aren't any hard and fast rules about the proper "procedures" to pursue a romantic relationship any more. Supposedly there were in the "good old days." :preach: Like, if a man went to drink lemonade on a woman's front porch on a Sunday afternoon, that meant he was interested in her. And if he also went on Wednesday nights, it meant he was going to propose soon. If they weren't interested in each other romantically, then he had no business sitting on her porch or drinking her lemonade, and she had no business allowing it, and everyone understood that. Stuff like that. These days everyone makes up their own rules based on their own experiences and what feels right to them, and attach their own meanings to things, and act based on these things, and get misinterpreted, and the result is mass confusion. Nowadays if people are drinking lemonade together on a Wednesday night they might be engaged, or they might be dating casually. Or maybe they're just friends. Or business partners. Or maybe they just both really like lemonade. Replace the lemonade in my example with just about any behavior you can imagine, and you see the problem. Essentially, we're dealing with a romantic Tower of Babel here.

So yeah. People are honestly confused. Can you blame them?
 
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Hope_0004

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I haven't read all of the responses, but I think it is a little creepy to do this.

Obviously the girls you've "courted away" from their boyfriends must not have been very attached to their boyfriends. I just don't understand why you'd want to be with someone who used a man, as you say, as a "purse".

What kind of girl are you going to end up with that way?

A pretty shallow one, in my opinion.

You may not be doing anything "wrong", but it seems like you're not really doing things right, either, and that's why you end up having to deal with a lot of BS later (i.e., people being angry with you, considering you a "cheater").

There's probably a reason you haven't ended up marrying any of this women - they obviously have a problem with commitment.
 
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Princess Pea

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Achichem said:
Most of my relationships are very serious and very committed ...

:scratch:

Maybe I'm dumb, but I don't understand how "serious and committed" (words which in my mind imply special, unique, and marriage-minded) goes with "most of my relationships" (which implies plural.) Would you define your terms, please, so we can better understand what it is you're doing?
 
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javaluver

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I think the old stand-by "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is the answer to this question. I wouldn't pursue someone in a relationship because I wouldn't want someone else to pursue someone I was dating. I would just force myself to move on.
 
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Mrs. Luther073082

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javaluver said:
I think the old stand-by "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is the answer to this question. I wouldn't pursue someone in a relationship because I wouldn't want someone else to pursue someone I was dating. I would just force myself to move on.

Yeah. I used to be friends with this guy who was ALWAYS getting crushes on girls who had boyfriends. And by boyfriends, I mean guys that he knew these girls had been with for YEARS. And he would still sit around and contemplate whether or not these girls were "fair game" and he would hang out with them when their boyfriends were not present and flirt with them during the day and then analyze their reactions to his flirting. He has a girlfriend now and I'm pretty sure he would not appreciate it if she was behaving like those girls were or if any of his friends were behaving like he used to. He even kissed his best friend's girlfriend back in high school.
 
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Sketcher

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Both critics and proponents of dating call it preparation for marraige - either good preparation or bad preparation, depending on who you are talking to. The decisions we make in dating will carry into our marraige, because marraige does not automatically change your character or your habits. Now, if you view the relationships with your peers now as something that isn't that important and hijacking them as not really wrong, then who is to say it will be any different when you're 40 and married along with most of the people you'll meet? How is this preparation to respect the marraiges of other people that you will be meeting later in life? If you see no problem with hijacking dating relationships now, then won't the temptation to commit full-blown adultery be that much stronger?
 
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Miles

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Princess Pea said:
I guess if you're interested in someone who's in a relationship but not married, all you can do is keep an eye on things for a while. If you see them break up, THEN approach the person and say something like "For obvious reasons I couldn't say this before, but I'd love to take you out for coffee sometime when you're ready to start dating again. Let me know when you're ready, OK?" And continue to be friendly, and maybe even ask again when an appropriate amount of time has passed. If I were the woman in question, I'd respond well to that - assuming I was interested in the new suitor. :)
I've thought about doing that before, but it felt too much like having an ulterior motive/stalking. I like to be friendly, but not to with the intent of cultivating a potential relationship that may never happen. From my perspective, it would not only be disrespectful of them, but not good for my self esteem either. I don't think I'd have it in me to intentionally wait until they break up. That might be waste of time, and even she does become available and express interest, then I'd just be a 'rebound guy'. :sigh:


Guess it just goes to show that the kind of woman I'm looking to date isn't the "dating kind" anyway (if there is such a thing). I've always suspected as much. It would certainly keep things simple to find a woman in a dating situation not unlike my own... and that means clearly single, or at worst, coming off a 'clean' breakup several years ago.
 
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Macrina

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Mrkguy, I think you have a valid point about people getting too emotionally close in dating relationships. For what it's worth, I don't think it's the end of the world if you inquire about whether they're exclusive or not -- just so long as if the answer is yes, you back off and respect that. It's a boundary thing, I guess -- pushing at someone else's self-defined boundaries just doesn't feel right to me, even if I don't think their choice is a good one.

So from the perspective of the "third party" wanting to "cut in," I'd have to recommend erring on the side of respecting the relationship and backing off.

But if you look at it from a different angle, the perspective of the person in the relationship, I would recommend not making a commitment that didn't hold meaning for you. You are right that there can be pressure to make something serious even if you just aren't there yet. But that's for the people inside the relationship to figure out.
 
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