Blessed are the Peacemakers: The Morality of War

Yusuf Evans

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David Brider said:
The medals may not be the result of killing people, but let's face it - the people who received the medals had, in all probability, taken lives.

Tell that to the Corpsmen and doctors who have died saving lives.

David Brider said:
But I wouldn't kill for them.

I actually feel sorry for you when you say this. I would die protecting my family and if that means killing someone to protect them, so be it. BTW, call me un-Christian like all you want.
 
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Yusuf Evans

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quatona said:
Oops, where did this remark come from? :confused::scratch:


Several members on this forum have claimed that I'm a hate filled individuals speaking un-Christian like ideals, simply because of my stance on war. Therefore, I thought I'd list the disclaimer first. :sorry:
 
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David Brider

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KalEl76 said:
Tell that to the Corpsmen and doctors who have died saving lives.

I only hope they were happy to die saving the lives of the people on "the other side", so to speak.

I actually feel sorry for you when you say this.

Don't. Just try being a bit more imaginative. Try thinking outside the box. It's so predictable - the first question I get asked when I take a stance as an absolute pacifist, every time, is some variant on "would you kill to protect your family". Apart from anything else, it's so extreme that it's unrealistic. Like I said, I would do all I can to protect my family short of taking life - but how many situations am I likely to be in, in which taking life would be the only possible means of protecting my family? I suspect none.

I would die protecting my family and if that means killing someone to protect them, so be it. BTW, call me un-Christian like all you want.

No, I won't, thanks. I've no doubt that you're very sincere in your belief that a willingness to kill to protect your family is in keeping with Christian ethics and morality. I happen to believe, on the basis of the studies I've been able to do on the issue, that you're wrong. I'd love to be able to persuade you of that. But I wouldn't stoop to calling you un-Christian.

David.
 
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Yusuf Evans

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David Brider said:
No, I won't, thanks. I've no doubt that you're very sincere in your belief that a willingness to kill to protect your family is in keeping with Christian ethics and morality.


I don't consider it a Christian virtue. I consider it being a guardian over you loved ones.
 
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armyman_83

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David Brider said:
God didn't exactly turn a blind eye to David's actions - he did say to him, "You have shed much blood and have fought many wars. You are not to build a house for my Name, because you have shed much blood on the earth in my sight." Which kind of suggests that killing in war isn't something God approves of. At least not necessarily.

David.

"Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war and my fingers to fight."--Ps.144:1

Indeed, but that made him no less blessed. His seed made the temple, and from his seed came the Christ. If God didn't approve of killing, I doubt he would have commanded his people to do so. One has but to look at the Bible.

"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name."--Exodus 15:3
 
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christalee4

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armyman_83 said:
"Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war and my fingers to fight."--Ps.144:1

Indeed, but that made him no less blessed. His seed made the temple, and from his seed came the Christ. If God didn't approve of killing, I doubt he would have commanded his people to do so. One has but to look at the Bible.

"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name."--Exodus 15:3

There is a lot of scripture in the Bible that approves of war, but also plenty of scripture that insists on peaceful means to resolve conflict. The problem is when some pick Scripture or tenets from other religions to justify lying, warfare and killing of innocents, if the means justify the end result. Killing in the name of God is the worst sort of killing that can be done, IMO.
 
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Aimee30

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ChristianCenturion said:
Correction, using the example of one thing to follow with the sentiment of "in the same way" does speak on the morality of it.

That is unless you have some way of explaining your claim that it doesn't in addition to an assertion above.

Perhaps that is the issue at hand then.
Claiming that someone or a group is condemning only to do some condemning.

Please speak for yourself.
I wasn't sold on the war in Iraq based on one or two talking points. If that is what your basis was, I can't help you remove the "how" it got there.

Besides, the issue is for me, "Here we are, what to do now".

Abandonment is bad for everyone.


I keep seeing those negative assertions.

I also see an absence of addressing everything else such as violations of UN resolutions, mass graves, known invasion of other countries, known use and possession of WMD, military personnel using civilian clothing while in battle, hospitals, Mosques, schools being used as depots and military installations, and so on and so on and so on...

Perhaps many people may feel confident that they know everything involved enough to "condemn" other many people and claim religious piety in their condemnation of those people, even a nation. But I'll view such actions on a case by case basis and in a light that it deserves.

By the way, I don't even bother with videos during a debate. They are horrible to rebut and media assertions are common in propaganda.
What I can argue here is that it should have been finished by Bush Sr. We should have had more help before diving in this time.
It is questionable excuses that make the war questionable. It is also questionable actions that make the war questionable.
I do believe there is some problem with the fact that plans for rebuilding Iraq were made before they invaded and saying that Iraq was in with Al Qaida as an excuse for going there without really convicting proof makes the person inciting the war. There's also the Haliburton connection. The fact is that oil is likely at least a partial factor no matter how you look at it. (I don't think they wanted to lose this country as a provider).
I just believe this war was mishandled and could have been conducted better--like with more backing, no torture like Abu Ghairb (it was admitted that similar techniques were used in Afghanistan--I only hope not to this degree because that would be terrible), and the resources to get it over quickly with less casualties.
The drain on the American funds is substantial--which is the reason why we needed more backing in the first place.
I also wish there would have been a better way to remove the government in power. Perhaps there was and we didn't see it.
 
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armyman_83 said:
I was picking scripture from my Faith not someone elses. If you don't like people killing in the name of God then I hope you only have a NT and no OT.
I hope what people draw from the OT with the NT is more then a justification for violence.
 
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knightlight72

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SimplyMe said:
The question then becomes, why Iraq? There are lots of countries around the world that kill their citizens and Iraq under Saddam was not the worst, I'm not sure if he was even in the top 5. Rwanda would have been one of the worst, so why support going into Iraq under that scenario rather than Rwanda? And why now that Saddam has been removed is there no talk of "liberating" other countries.
Do you think we should try and make sure that children in the USA should be fed food, and never allowed to go hungry? Now what if I were to say that we shouldn't try and make make sure the children of the USA are fed unless we're willing to feed all the children of the world?

Really, it's a seriously flawed logic. We have to make boundries, since we cannot do everything at once. Either because of finances, manpower, transportation, etc.

So I'm saying you're argument is a weak one, since just because we cannot save the entire world, that we have no right to pick one country to save? Simply put, I'm quite sure that there are many people in Iraq who are grateful that they are saved. (even though there are others in great need as well, they are still grateful to be saved)
 
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SimplyMe

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knightlight72 said:
Do you think we should try and make sure that children in the USA should be fed food, and never allowed to go hungry? Now what if I were to say that we shouldn't try and make make sure the children of the USA are fed unless we're willing to feed all the children of the world?

Really, it's a seriously flawed logic. We have to make boundries, since we cannot do everything at once. Either because of finances, manpower, transportation, etc.

So I'm saying you're argument is a weak one, since just because we cannot save the entire world, that we have no right to pick one country to save? Simply put, I'm quite sure that there are many people in Iraq who are grateful that they are saved. (even though there are others in great need as well, they are still grateful to be saved)

It seems to me you are building a straw man here rather than trying to debate what I said, which would appear to be the reason you brought starving children into the debate, when the original topic was human rights abuses by a government. You also bring up the straw man of limited resources, my question wasn't why ONLY Iraq, my question was why Iraq (which was killing thousands a year) rather than countries that are killing thousands of their citizens in a day -- if that was a primary reason for the war.

I'm not aware of the US ever previously using the human rights record of a government of it's own people to justify war. We didn't use it in World War II, when would have been the most obvious time to use this type of justification with the imprisonment and murder of the Jews, but instead waited until we were attacked by the Japanese. Nor is there any talk of doing it as resources become available from Iraq, we've never seriously talked of helping in Rwanda, Sudan, Chad, or other African countries -- the countries that currently have the worst human rights records (and, since you mentioned it, the most starving children).
 
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knightlight72

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SimplyMe said:
It seems to me you are building a straw man here rather than trying to debate what I said, which would appear to be the reason you brought starving children into the debate, when the original topic was human rights abuses by a government. You also bring up the straw man of limited resources, my question wasn't why ONLY Iraq, my question was why Iraq (which was killing thousands a year) rather than countries that are killing thousands of their citizens in a day -- if that was a primary reason for the war.
A rather strange response. I brought up children starving to help make it understandable. Often people have used stories that are not real, and then apply the logic to the real world example. I made a point that was really clear cut. As it is, I'm not stating that Iraq should be the only country that is helped. As far as I am concerned, the USA and many other countries are currently using their own soldiers in many other countries to help them. In the future, I suspect that there will be more countries with soldiers from helping countries.

That's nice that there are other needs out there. We cannot help them all right this minute. Whoever makes up a priority list likely has people angry at them all the time, for the "bigger needs" of some other horrors. Darned if you do, darned if you don't.

Plain and simple, if USA had helped another country, they would still be taking flack for it.

Simply said:
I'm not aware of the US ever previously using the human rights record of a government of it's own people to justify war. We didn't use it in World War II, when would have been the most obvious time to use this type of justification with the imprisonment and murder of the Jews, but instead waited until we were attacked by the Japanese. Nor is there any talk of doing it as resources become available from Iraq, we've never seriously talked of helping in Rwanda, Sudan, Chad, or other African countries -- the countries that currently have the worst human rights records (and, since you mentioned it, the most starving children).
To be honest, that's a weak argument. Because the USA didn't help immediately in World War 2, then they can't help immediately in other human rights transgressions?
 
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David Brider

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KalEl76 said:
davidbrider said:
No, I won't, thanks. I've no doubt that you're very sincere in your belief that a willingness to kill to protect your family is in keeping with Christian ethics and morality.

I don't consider it a Christian virtue. I consider it being a guardian over you loved ones.

Which is an interesting distinction to make.

I don't think there can be much doubt that "being a guardian over your loved ones" is, from a Christian perspective, a virtue; after all, husbands are to love their wives "as Christ loved the church".

However (and just noting in passing that Jesus' statement "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple" does rather muddy the waters a bit...), a couple of points:

Firstly, our love should not just be restricted to our loved ones, but should include our neighbours and our enemies (which, re: the parable of the good Samaritan, may or may not be the same thing).

Secondly, the clause "as Christ loved the church" is surely important in this context. How did Christ love the church? By dying for us. So for husbands to love their wives (by extension all of their family members?) by dying for them is commendable and laudable. But for husbands to love their wives by killing for them, something which AFAICT neither Christ nor Paul nor any other NT writer ever encouraged us to do, seems to go directly against the grain of Christian teaching.

David.
 
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David Brider

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armyman_83 said:
"Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war and my fingers to fight."--Ps.144:1

David believed that God had taught his hands to war and his fingers to fight - but in light of the fact that David's warrior past was obviously not something on which God looked with approval, it may be necessary to draw a distinction between what David believed, and what actually was the case.

Indeed, but that made him no less blessed. His seed made the temple, and from his seed came the Christ.

David was also an adulterer, and I hope nobody's going to say that that's something we should be emulating or approving of. Given that David was as much a sinner as anyone else, I think it's most likely that God blessed him in spite of his sins, rather than because of them.

If God didn't approve of killing, I doubt he would have commanded his people to do so. One has but to look at the Bible.

Granted that it's an inescapable fact that on occasions God is recorded as telling his people to go to war - it may not be something with which I'm particularly comfortable, but it's there. But those were very specific occasions. There's no indication that it's something which God mandates on a general basis.

Given the general tenor of the New Testament teachings on the issue (including, but not limited to, the "Blessed are the peacemakers" statement cited in the title of this thread), it looks to me as if Christians, living under grace (and ruled over by the Prince of peace), may well be accountable to a somewhat different to that by which the Hebrews lived.

David.
 
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David Brider

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knightlight72 said:
Do you think we should try and make sure that children in the USA should be fed food, and never allowed to go hungry? Now what if I were to say that we shouldn't try and make make sure the children of the USA are fed unless we're willing to feed all the children of the world?

Really, it's a seriously flawed logic. We have to make boundries, since we cannot do everything at once. Either because of finances, manpower, transportation, etc.

So I'm saying you're argument is a weak one, since just because we cannot save the entire world, that we have no right to pick one country to save? Simply put, I'm quite sure that there are many people in Iraq who are grateful that they are saved. (even though there are others in great need as well, they are still grateful to be saved)

Humanitarian aid - i.e. feeding the starving, providing healthcare and an adequate standard of education - is more likely to achieve desirable results than military intervention. It's also likely to be cheaper.

David.
 
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David Brider said:
Humanitarian aid - i.e. feeding the starving, providing healthcare and an adequate standard of education - is more likely to achieve desirable results than military intervention. It's also likely to be cheaper.

David.
But war can be profited from, creates low unemployment, drives up inflation, etc.

Just because the reality is that many people 's (someone's son's, someone's husband's, etc) lives are taken away...
 
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knightlight72 said:
That's nice that there are other needs out there. We cannot help them all right this minute. Whoever makes up a priority list likely has people angry at them all the time, for the "bigger needs" of some other horrors. Darned if you do, darned if you don't.
Sure a country that is living on borrowed land from India needs to be on the backlist?

Plain and simple, if USA had helped another country, they would still be taking flack for it.
I'm sure helping Tibet to gain back their land with the peace treaty written by Kundun would cause America to be in the crud with the majortiy of the world. [/sarcasim].

To be honest, that's a weak argument. Because the USA didn't help immediately in World War 2, then they can't help immediately in other human rights transgressions?
What has their contributions to Tibet been? hmm, zip?

Considering the current Dalai Lama wrote more then one letter whilst Tibet was it's own nation asking for help.
 
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