only unforgivable sin is blasphemy

I think intricatic and Tigress might be on to something here.

But, let's look at Matthew 12:36-37 "But I tell you that men will have to give an account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

I think what Jesus might be saying here is we are not to judge whether someone is doing a work by The Holy Spirit or not. Could Jesus be saying it is not for us to judge period?

I think we all should read Matt 12 15 through 37. Sometimes, taking one scripture to let it stand alone does not make such sense.

There are a couple of however's to this though: I know the Holy Bible says "The Holy Spirit decerns what is good and what is evil" (paraphrased quote; don't have scripture reference).

So then, if we have The Holy Spirit, wouldn't we be able to tell if it was a work of The Holy Spirit or not?

And then I got to thinking about TBN. The Word of Faith movement and the "faith healers", and Katherine Kullman a faith healer who started her work in the 1940's, and it lead me to this thought that perhaps NONE of us are to judge whether it is a work of The Holy Spirit or not, for fear we may speak wrongly or wrongly accuse someone by saying they do not do a good work in Jesus' name nor through the spirit. As some have said, regarding TBN and other faith healers that they are "scam" artists.

I think Jesus may be warning us there not to judge any works because none of us can ever be totally right. Only Jesus was. So, perhaps the meaning is to never judge, especially when it's a good thing that happens.

Does any of this make sense, or do I need some sleep

It's only been like 8000 degrees during the day and at 7000 degrees at night, and no one can sleep at night because it's too hot!!!!!!!!!!! It's called Global Warming, and that word ain't kidding! It's hot!!!!!!!!!! It's been like roasting in an oven!

So, could this mean we are not to judge what is done by The Holy Spirit at all, lest we make a mistake and blaspheme?

In other words, stay out of the judgment of these things completely?

I'd say that makes sense. I mean, if there's a beneficial result, I'm not going to complain - so long as they do it in Jesus' name.

Pandersen said:

2 Peter 2:12
12 But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
(from New International Version)

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OK, you got me. But only in mistakenly saying "something". But the scripture does not say they blasphemed "something"; good scripture though. It points out many things that might be called blasphemy.
"They will secretly introduce distructive heresies."
"...and will bring the way of truth into disrepute."
"...these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings."

But verse 12 on for the rest of the chapter really makes it clear there will be no repentance in these men.

I honestly believe that anyone committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is , as Peter said "...a beast, ...born only to be caught and destroyed". And Jesus is saying to avoid such people, they are beyond hope of salvation. (like maybe the Pharisees)

Lilymarie, I'd say there is some truth in that. What is in the heart flows from the mouth. We should not condemn what is done in the name of Jesus, and what is said against the Holy Spirit is condemned already.

Maybe I am the one who needs sleep!!!

Matt 12:22-37
What this sin; it is speaking against the Holy Ghost. See what malignity there is in tongue-sins, when the only unpardonable sin is so. But Jesus knew their thoughts, v. 25. It is not all speaking against the person or essence of the Holy Ghost, or some of his more private operations, or merely the resisting of his internal working in the sinner himself, that is here meant; for who then should be saved? It is adjudged in our law, that an act of indemnity shall always be construed in favour of that grace and clemency which is the intention of the act; and therefore the exceptions in the act are not to be extended further than needs must. The gospel is an act of indemnity; none are excepted by name, nor any by description, but those only that blaspheme the Holy Ghost; which therefore must be construed in the narrowest sense: all presuming sinners are effectually cut off by the conditions of the indemnity, faith and repentance; and therefore the other exceptions must not be stretched far: and this blasphemy is excepted, not for any defect of mercy in God or merit in Christ, but because it inevitably leaves the sinner in infidelity and impenitency.

timlamb said:

OK, you got me. But only in mistakenly saying "something". But the scripture does not say they blasphemed "something"; good scripture though. It points out many things that might be called blasphemy.
"They will secretly introduce distructive heresies."
"...and will bring the way of truth into disrepute."
"...these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings."

But verse 12 on for the rest of the chapter really makes it clear there will be no repentance in these men.

I honestly believe that anyone committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is , as Peter said "...a beast, ...born only to be caught and destroyed". And Jesus is saying to avoid such people, they are beyond hope of salvation. (like maybe the Pharisees)

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exactly like the Pharasees who should have known the prophecy they were seeing.
Matt 12:22-30Matt 12:22-30
Is not this the Son of David?

That is, Is not this the promised "descendant" of David, the Messiah? They were acquainted with the prophecy in Isa 35:5, "Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped," and they inferred that he must be the promised Messiah who was able to do this. This inference was drawn by the common people, and not by the proud and haughty Pharisees. It is not uncommon that people of plain common sense, though unlearned, see the true meaning of the Bible, while those who are filled with pride and science, falsely so called, are blinded
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)

how do we know though if something is of the Holy Spirit? I believe its in 2 thessalonians we're warned that the Antichrist s going to perform signs and wonders. Presumably, these will be taken as good thing by many people - but I wouldn't say its the work of the Holy Spirit

Anyone can be claiming to be doing something in Jesus' name, but does that really make it of the Holy Spirit? Read through Jeremiah and see what God has to say about 'prophets' who claimed to be prophesying in His name - it happened, and He was less than pleased I'd say we're risking leaving ourselves wide open to false prophets/teachers etc.. if we refuse to use our judgment on whether or not something is of God.

little_tigress said:

how do we know though if something is of the Holy Spirit? I believe its in 2 thessalonians we're warned that the Antichrist s going to perform signs and wonders. Presumably, these will be taken as good thing by many people - but I wouldn't say its the work of the Holy Spirit

Anyone can be claiming to be doing something in Jesus' name, but does that really make it of the Holy Spirit? Read through Jeremiah and see what God has to say about 'prophets' who claimed to be prophesying in His name - it happened, and He was less than pleased I'd say we're risking leaving ourselves wide open to false prophets/teachers etc.. if we refuse to use our judgment on whether or not something is of God.

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I understand what you are saying, I think the point is not being to quick to judge, check out scripture and look for fruits.

There is one TV preacher, whom I will not name, who preaches a very "nicy nice" message which I don't believe is particularly scriptural. However, he seems to love the Lord and many like to listen to him. I cannot dissern him to be good or bad so I should not make a judgement. I believe you are right though, we should be able to dissern a false teacher through the Holy Spirit, and when we do, we should oppose him.

Am I wishy washy or what!! LOL

little_tigress said:

how do we know though if something is of the Holy Spirit? I believe its in 2 thessalonians we're warned that the Antichrist s going to perform signs and wonders. Presumably, these will be taken as good thing by many people - but I wouldn't say its the work of the Holy Spirit

Anyone can be claiming to be doing something in Jesus' name, but does that really make it of the Holy Spirit? Read through Jeremiah and see what God has to say about 'prophets' who claimed to be prophesying in His name - it happened, and He was less than pleased I'd say we're risking leaving ourselves wide open to false prophets/teachers etc.. if we refuse to use our judgment on whether or not something is of God.

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This falls right into prophecy of the anti-christ. He will be given power not take it by force. The people will gladly follow him and his false teachings because they can not decern the things of God.

BibleGateway provides the following definition:

Blasphemy In the sense of speaking evil of God this word is found in Ps. 74:18; Isa. 52:5; Rom. 2:24; Rev. 13:1, 6; 16:9, 11, 21. It denotes also any kind of calumny, or evil-speaking, or abuse (1 Kings 21:10; Acts 13:45; 18:6, etc.). Our Lord was accused of blasphemy when he claimed to be the Son of God (Matt. 26:65; comp. Matt. 9:3; Mark 2:7). They who deny his Messiahship blaspheme Jesus (Luke 22:65; John 10:36).
Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (Matt. 12:31, 32; Mark 3:28, 29; Luke 12:10) is regarded by some as a continued and obstinate rejection of the gospel, and hence is an unpardonable sin, simply because as long as a sinner remains in unbelief he voluntarily excludes himself from pardon. Others regard the expression as designating the sin of attributing to the power of Satan those miracles which Christ performed, or generally those works which are the result of the Spirit's agency.

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I would also like to add that, even though I think it's fairly obvious when a fraud is trying to chide money from believers with faux miracles, I don't think it's ever okay to speak badly about them. The Holy Spirit does discern good from evil, but people are still people at the heart of the matter. They may be doing evil, but they're still capable of doing good.

heh, well that depends on what you mean by speaking badly about someone. I can't judge the heart of anyone, nor would I want to try, but I can judge their outward actions and I think that if I spot someone who is deceiving others it would be my duty to warn them that he or she is not on the up and up (Ezk. 33). That is taken by many people to be going to far in speaking badly about another person, but I think there are those that God gives the gifts of discernment to for that very reason.

little_tigress said:

heh, well that depends on what you mean by speaking badly about someone. I can't judge the heart of anyone, nor would I want to try, but I can judge their outward actions and I think that if I spot someone who is deceiving others it would be my duty to warn them that he or she is not on the up and up (Ezk. 33). That is taken by many people to be going to far in speaking badly about another person, but I think there are those that God gives the gifts of discernment to for that very reason.

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I agree, to be honest though, I'm not really sure how I feel about the Charismatic movement, so I tend to avoid getting into arguments about it. But if the person is obviously being deceitful, it's usually not hard to spot.

8"I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. 9But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. 10And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. 11"When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, 12for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say."


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I posted Luke 12:8-12, as I thought the post below by Grimwolf was very good. Grimwolf's post is below. A very interesting thread this is. I think the scriptures below are saying it's both? Still didn't sleep last night! Still about a bizillion degrees! I need ice coffee for the morning!


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Blasphemy In the sense of speaking evil of God this word is found in Ps. 74:18; Isa. 52:5; Rom. 2:24; Rev. 13:1, 6; 16:9, 11, 21. It denotes also any kind of calumny, or evil-speaking, or abuse (1 Kings 21:10; Acts 13:45; 18:6, etc.). Our Lord was accused of blasphemy when he claimed to be the Son of God (Matt. 26:65; comp. Matt. 9:3; Mark 2:7). They who deny his Messiahship blaspheme Jesus (Luke 22:65; John 10:36).
Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (Matt. 12:31, 32; Mark 3:28, 29; Luke 12:10) is regarded by some as a continued and obstinate rejection of the gospel, and hence is an unpardonable sin, simply because as long as a sinner remains in unbelief he voluntarily excludes himself from pardon. Others regard the expression as designating the sin of attributing to the power of Satan those miracles which Christ performed, or generally those works which are the result of the Spirit's agency.

intricatic said:

I agree, to be honest though, I'm not really sure how I feel about the Charismatic movement, so I tend to avoid getting into arguments about it. But if the person is obviously being deceitful, it's usually not hard to spot.

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I've seen some tel-evangelists, as I'm sure most of you have, but I can tell you honestly I won't send in any money. I haven't felt any type of calling to send money.

If I have extra money, I would like to share it as God calls me.

But, whether I can say some of these faith healings have been real OR not, I tell you the truth, I don't know. I don't think one can tell from a televison perhaps? I still don't know the answer to that, but my money I will not send. I haven't been called to do so.

However, even some doctors and nurses have said they believe they have seen and witnessed faith healings and miracles because there is no medical explanation for the "sudden" healing, and these are doctors of today's modern world as well.

Also, in the Bible, has Satan ever done anything good?

However, this doesn't mean I don't believe there are false teachers. I fear I have even met some on other internet forums, but I'd say it's more like incorrect doctrine (seems real far out there to me). However, this was on other internet forums, not this one.

The reason I mentioned TBN is because that is the only current analogy I could think of.

Also, Matthew 12 seems to be speaking about "judging" as well, so that's why I looked for an analogy, but again you all don't need to debate TBN. I just used that as an analogy.

Also, in the Bible, has Satan ever done anything good?

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that would depend on whose point of view you're talking about. Like I said from that passage in 2 Thess, the signs and wonders given by the Antichrist will surely be seen as a good thing by those who want to believe that they are good.

but thats generally the same with anything though. I can believe all I want that Sun Myung Moon is a man sent from God to proclaim the truth before the world and to save my soul from death - but just the fact that I might believe it to be true isn't going to make it so

little_tigress said:

that would depend on whose point of view you're talking about. Like I said from that passage in 2 Thess, the signs and wonders given by the Antichrist will surely be seen as a good thing by those who want to believe that they are good.

but thats generally the same with anything though. I can believe all I want that Sun Myung Moon is a man sent from God to proclaim the truth before the world and to save my soul from death - but just the fact that I might believe it to be true isn't going to make it so

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2 Thess 2:9-11

9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

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Hi, good morning Interesting debate. I put up 2 Thess 2:9-11

Do you think this is speaking about believers who will be deceived, or just unbelievers.

Also, please note, I won't get into any discussions or debates on the book of Revelation. I skip over all posts on that book of prophesy. The Holy Spirit has told me to stay away from that book because of Rev 22:18-19.

So, I hope this doesn't turn into a discussion about the book of Revelation.

looking at the context - believers are being addressed and are being exhorted and encouraged to be vigilant in their faith. The part of the passage you have posted shows the end result of those who chose not to have a love of truth and therefore will not be saved.

theres nothing saying believers cannot be deceived and pulled from the truth (1 Tim 4). but then it looks like this topic is getting off topic and onto an OSAS debate its probably better to stick to one issue at a time

little_tigress said:

looking at the context - believers are being addressed and are being exhorted and encouraged to be vigilant in their faith. The part of the passage you have posted shows the end result of those who chose not to have a love of truth and therefore will not be saved.

theres nothing saying believers cannot be deceived and pulled from the truth (1 Tim 4). but then it looks like this topic is getting off topic and onto an OSAS debate its probably better to stick to one issue at a time

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Well, it's still connected in regards to speaking against works of The Holy Spirit and what works would be attributed to Satan (or his other names). That only "good" works Satan could do are at the "end times", but those "miracles" or "works" would be a deception...(see my post #57 above for the scripture)

But, I agree to a point that we need to come to some conclusion, especially in regards to unbelievers who may ask us this question regarding the "unforgiveable sin".

I think it's both, as addressed in Grimwolf's post. That's the only conclusion I can come too right now.

little_tigress said:

looking at the context - believers are being addressed and are being exhorted and encouraged to be vigilant in their faith. The part of the passage you have posted shows the end result of those who chose not to have a love of truth and therefore will not be saved.

theres nothing saying believers cannot be deceived and pulled from the truth (1 Tim 4). but then it looks like this topic is getting off topic and onto an OSAS debate its probably better to stick to one issue at a time

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Aww, but those debates are always so interesting.

This is getting interesting - I've always thought that it should be rather obvious to those who hold and understand sound doctrine that the antichrist will be a false prophet, but I'll stay out of Revelations at lily's request.