Just a thought: how many of those who say God never uses physical chastening to discipline his children would advocate the use of corporal punishment in the bringing up of human children?
Anthony
Anthony
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Does God chasten with sicknesses and deaths?
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9-iron
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I am not advocating God nevers uses sickness or death to teach us. What I am advocating is the sickness and death DOES NOT come from HIM. It is when we stray, rebel, walk in unrepented sin, and disobedience that we are setting ourselves up for misery. This misery does not come directly from the hand of God.
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Thunderchild
Sheep in Wolf's clothing
And what you are saying is not supported by scripture, 9 Iron.
Act 23:3
Revelation 2:20-23
Act 23:3
Here - direct statement that God will act against a person. Admittedly the person is not a Christian.
Revelation 2:20-23
God states flatly that he will act against this "Jezebel" AND ALL WHO COMMIT ADULTERY WITH HER. Who commits adultery with her? God's servants. Even if we pretend that this "Jezebel" had never been Christian, the fact remains that the people with her are identified as God's servants.
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quote: "Here - direct statement that God will act against a person. Admittedly the person is not a Christian."
Well, lets leave it in context. They wanted to "smite" Paul in the mouth -- punch or slap. Then Paul retorts and says God will "smite" you instead. Is there any mention of sickness or death here? No. Is "slapping" your child the same as killing him or putting cancer on him?
Secondly. Did God do it? I dont think so. After all Paul had to sort of apologise and retract his words -- as this guy was a chief priest and Paul was speaking "evil of this ruler" as he admitted, himself. If God was really gonna do it, if Paul was speaking by the Spirit of God, do you think Paul would have said sorry or "oops I didnt know"?....
4* Those who stood by said, "Would you revile God's high priest?"
5* And Paul said, "I did not know, brethren, that he was the high priest; for it is written, 'You shall not speak evil of a ruler of your people.'"
As for the Jezebel part, I cant give a good answer yet cos I'm not familiar with Rev as it has to do with a lot of prophecy, symbols and speculation? But I do know that when the church is raptured out of the earth, tribulation will come upon the inhabitants of the earth -- those who rejected Christ. We are now in the dispensation of grace, God is giving men plenty of chances to turn to him, but a time will come when it is too late. that time is not here and now.
Well, lets leave it in context. They wanted to "smite" Paul in the mouth -- punch or slap. Then Paul retorts and says God will "smite" you instead. Is there any mention of sickness or death here? No. Is "slapping" your child the same as killing him or putting cancer on him?
Secondly. Did God do it? I dont think so. After all Paul had to sort of apologise and retract his words -- as this guy was a chief priest and Paul was speaking "evil of this ruler" as he admitted, himself. If God was really gonna do it, if Paul was speaking by the Spirit of God, do you think Paul would have said sorry or "oops I didnt know"?....
4* Those who stood by said, "Would you revile God's high priest?"
5* And Paul said, "I did not know, brethren, that he was the high priest; for it is written, 'You shall not speak evil of a ruler of your people.'"
As for the Jezebel part, I cant give a good answer yet cos I'm not familiar with Rev as it has to do with a lot of prophecy, symbols and speculation? But I do know that when the church is raptured out of the earth, tribulation will come upon the inhabitants of the earth -- those who rejected Christ. We are now in the dispensation of grace, God is giving men plenty of chances to turn to him, but a time will come when it is too late. that time is not here and now.
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Thunderchild,
Let me ask you a simple question. When something bad happens to you or your loved ones -- eg your wife or mother tells you she's got cancer and only has 3 mths left to live. Does that bring peace and joy, or some sort of confusion? eg what to do, how to get things in order, plans disrupted, insufficient money for treatment, quit job to look after her, etc, etc. many of us wld be stumped, shocked, at a loss.
Now can you honestly believe that God authored all this when the Bible says God is not the author of confusion but of peace?
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Let me ask you a simple question. When something bad happens to you or your loved ones -- eg your wife or mother tells you she's got cancer and only has 3 mths left to live. Does that bring peace and joy, or some sort of confusion? eg what to do, how to get things in order, plans disrupted, insufficient money for treatment, quit job to look after her, etc, etc. many of us wld be stumped, shocked, at a loss.
Now can you honestly believe that God authored all this when the Bible says God is not the author of confusion but of peace?
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
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The Corinthians verse on confusion-v-peace is, it seems to me, concerned with the orderly conduct of Christian meetings, not about difficulties in working out our future! But of course, in the kind of scenario you give, if the 'confused' person were to look to God and ask for guidance, would He not direct them into the 'best' path for them to follow? Which might, conceivably, include the option "Repent of your sin, and I will heal you"!
Straying from the immediate subject, it does seem that God is quite keen on the idea of putting 'stumbling blocks' in people's way, causing them to question their assumptions, and provoking a crisis of decision as to how to respond. With the hope that such a dillemma might cause them to 'look to Him and be saved'.
Anthony
Straying from the immediate subject, it does seem that God is quite keen on the idea of putting 'stumbling blocks' in people's way, causing them to question their assumptions, and provoking a crisis of decision as to how to respond. With the hope that such a dillemma might cause them to 'look to Him and be saved'.
Anthony
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Thunderchild
Sheep in Wolf's clothing
Andrew: I can look at that passage and see that any number of interpretations may be derived from it. I can look at the passage and see that, for instance, even allowing unpleasant things to happen would contravene that verse. I can look at the passage and compare it with such events as Moses standing between God and the people to stay his hand. Or I can look at the passage and see that it has relevance, as stated by Truelight, limited to the way Christian meetings are to be conducted.
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God is not the author of confusion, plain and simple. If you want to limit that character of His within the premises of the church, and say that God is, however, the author or confusion outside of the church premises, then I really dont know what to say.
It's up to you Thunderchild, if you want to believe God will author sickness and death in your life or in the life of your loved ones, then according to your faith be it unto you. It will happen becos the devil comes alongside you and says amen! Then God will have to permit him to do it becos you've believed wrongly about God and opened a door to Satan.
As for me and my household, we believe in a God of love and grace, and we'll continue to enjoy a close, non-child-abusive, Daddy-God & child relationship with all its blessings, not curses.
ps: you shld read Deu 28 to learn to differentiate betw curses and blessings, esp v61, (and Ga 3:13) then you'll stop thinking that some sicknesses are blessings from God.
It's up to you Thunderchild, if you want to believe God will author sickness and death in your life or in the life of your loved ones, then according to your faith be it unto you. It will happen becos the devil comes alongside you and says amen! Then God will have to permit him to do it becos you've believed wrongly about God and opened a door to Satan.
As for me and my household, we believe in a God of love and grace, and we'll continue to enjoy a close, non-child-abusive, Daddy-God & child relationship with all its blessings, not curses.
ps: you shld read Deu 28 to learn to differentiate betw curses and blessings, esp v61, (and Ga 3:13) then you'll stop thinking that some sicknesses are blessings from God.
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