is this a contridiction?
- Thread starter Bleeding Memories
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Didaskomenos
Voiced Bilabial Spirant
You all obviously missed her point. No one will ever get away from sin, even after being a Christian. Being a Christian is the only way to deal with the problem of sinning. It gives us a way out of the cycle of sinning and a way for redemption from the consequences of sinning. While I don't particularly like the term "sinner" used for Christians, her point stands - all sin, but God provided Jesus as our help and Redeemer. She's right - homosexuality is no worse than other sins.
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I will say it again .
Romans 1
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.<SUP> 27</SUP>Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, 1men with 1men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
Romans 1
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.<SUP> 27</SUP>Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, 1men with 1men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
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Well said Didaskomenos.
If we study the scriptures we will see that God not only holds us responsible for what we do, but also for what we are. Sin is not just an individual act but it is also the human condition apart from Christ. The bible makes some very powerful statements concerning sins grasp on the lost. It says that we are helpless against it (Rom. 5:6), enslaved to it (Rom. 6:17), and held captive by it (Rom 7:23). Such strong words give little doubt of the desperate condition of humanity. We are born "sinners," those with a tendency to sin. God holds us responsible for the condition we are born into. If that upsets you, sorry, you are not God.
The Bible teaches that apart from Christ we as human beings have a nature to sin. What does this say about us? It tells us that sin is at the core of our being. It comes as naturally and effortlessly to us as bearing oranges to an orange tree. Some say that it is our environment that makes us sin. However, this is neither scripturally nor historically true. If we put a human being in a perfect environment, he will still sin. (We dont want to carry our tree analogy too far, but there are certain environments where an orange tree will bear less fruit than in others. Nevertheless, it remains an orange tree no matter where it is.) We may tell him not to sin and explain why it is wrong and harmful, but he will still sin. It is his nature to do so. Exhorting a man not to sin is like telling an orange tree not to bear fruit.
Therefore, when the bible says that we are helpless against the power of sin, it means it. There are those today that say that they cannot help their behavior. They tell us that they were born that way. While their claim is never an excuse for sin, there is a measure of truth to it. For example, when a homosexual or alcoholic says that he is powerless against his condition, and that he has tried to change but cannot, he is merely acknowledging the human condition. Apart from the Lord, we are all sold into bondage to sin. We are all powerless to change what we are. That is why we need a Savior. We need a salvation so great that it will not just exhort us toward holiness but one that will make us an entirely new creation with a new nature.
"For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish.... Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death (Romans 7:14-19,24)?"
Therefore, a sinner is one who does bad things naturally. Right? Surprisingly, this conclusion does not fully define what a sinner is. Sin goes much deeper than just doing bad things. If our definition of righteousness is doing good things, and our definition of sin is doing bad things, we fall short.
Jesus told a parable that destroys the above definition of sin and righteousness:
"And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get. But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me, the sinner! I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted (Luke 18:9-18:14)."
This Pharisee did some pretty impressive deeds. What pastor would not want a church member who did such things. He paid tithes on all that he got, and he fasted not one day a week but two. Yet, Jesus condemned him.
Why? A further examination of sin will yield the answer. Sin is an old King James English word. It was actually an archery term. If an archers arrow fell short of the target, it was called sinning. This insight gives new depth to Pauls statement " all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 6:23)." Sinning is falling short of the glory of Who God is. Only the glory of God pleases God. God pointed to what pleases Him at Jesus baptism. When the Lord came up from the water, the people heard a voice from heaven. "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased (Matt. 3:17)." Therefore, it comes down to this: when God sees His Son it is righteousness. When He does not, it is sin (missing the mark).
Consider the Pharisee. Whose righteousness did God see in this man? He saw only the Pharisees own righteousness. This proud mans righteousness was self-righteousness. As Jesus said, "He trusted in himself that he was righteous." There is only one righteousness that pleases God. That is the righteousness of Christ which is the gift of God. Therefore, as implausible as it may seem, it is possible to be doing human good and still be sinning. Only the good of Christ hits the mark. Therefore, we see that the sin nature is the nature to be separate from God whether in doing good or evil.
Consequently, we can see that there is only one cure for being a sinner or for sin itself. It is not trying harder. It is not beating ourselves up for our failures. (Look where such behavior got the man in Romans Seven.) It is union with Christ. Such union is wonderfully provided in God's Son.
"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor 5:21)."
Even when we Christians struggle with areas of our lives that are not yet consecrated to the Lord, this only serves to drive us into the experience of our union with Christ. We wonder why the Lord lets us fall again and again in certain areas. Homosexuality is only one possibility. Guys, Jesus said that if we even look a woman with lust in our hearts, it is the same as committing adultery. When we fail, we make new promises to changes our ways, but we rarely keep them. And to make matters worse, it seems that God doesn't even want to help us keep such promises. Then we get mad at Him! If we are living this cycle of promises and failures, we are living in Romans seven. God wants us to move on the glory of Romans eight. Union with Christ is our dwelling place, when we begin to accept this by faith, we begin to overcome.
We must realize that we must walk with God in God's way. God's way is Christ. It is not through guilt and renewed effort that we overcome. That is the Law. It is through a bold proclamation that Christ has become our life and our nature that we see victory, for indeed our victory is the Person of Jesus Christ who is richly given to us. Taking the gift through faith is the way we walk with God. Our failures only serve to lead us to this understanding.
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I must say that out of all the replies this topic has recieved, this is the one i appreciate the most. we all sin and we all come short of Gods glory, and what he wants for us. I guess i was just trying to see everyones personal opinion on if they think it is possible or not. because actually in the end, the only person who knows, is God...
blessings...
ashley
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Ashley,
I have a question for you-- actually two. When God looks at you, does He see a sinner or a saint? Second, If we are in Christ, are we still in a position of being "short of God's glory?"
Ozark
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bleeding....that is not exactly true....yes, God knows what is true and untrue....however, HE revealed that to us through His scripture. Try to never use the cop-out of "well, only God knows what is true." This is only HALF true...God reveals to us through His Word what His thoughts on these matters are. If you trust God, trust what He said. We don't have to wait till 'the end' to find out many of these things.....
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Peace to All who set their Hands to Peace!
The lead posters question equates to "can sin manipulate" a believer?
Everyday.
Mankind is "bound" to disobedience (Rom. 11:32) by God for His Purposes.
The called out one (a believer) NOW KNOWS the reality of sin. Prior to knowing Christ the "sinner" is a captive or slave of sin.
Paul had this to say about SIN:
Romans 7:17
So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
For emphasis in understanding Paul repeats again:
Romans 7:20
But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
and he says yet again:
Romans 7:11
for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
CLEARLY sin is a SEPARATE ENTITY from Paul in these statements. Paul understood that ALL have sinned, and that SIN is NOT THE PEOPLE but a DWELLER with us IN OUR FLESH.
All believers are ADMONISHED not to let SIN manipulate them.
Sin and People are NOT THE SAME! When SIN is viewed in this way it is easier to be led, rather than JUSTIFY the sin, which will NEVER happen.
God is Love.
smaller
The lead posters question equates to "can sin manipulate" a believer?
Everyday.
Mankind is "bound" to disobedience (Rom. 11:32) by God for His Purposes.
The called out one (a believer) NOW KNOWS the reality of sin. Prior to knowing Christ the "sinner" is a captive or slave of sin.
Paul had this to say about SIN:
Romans 7:17
So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
For emphasis in understanding Paul repeats again:
Romans 7:20
But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
and he says yet again:
Romans 7:11
for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
CLEARLY sin is a SEPARATE ENTITY from Paul in these statements. Paul understood that ALL have sinned, and that SIN is NOT THE PEOPLE but a DWELLER with us IN OUR FLESH.
All believers are ADMONISHED not to let SIN manipulate them.
Sin and People are NOT THE SAME! When SIN is viewed in this way it is easier to be led, rather than JUSTIFY the sin, which will NEVER happen.
God is Love.
smaller
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Hi, Smaller!
The term "Christian" was first applied at Antioch, Acts 11:26. It implies that the practitioners believe in and practice the teachings of Jesus. There is "the rub", the practice or daily conduct. Jesus asked, "Why call me Lord, Lord and do not the things that I say? Many will come in my name saying, Lord, Lord have we not done this and that in your name? and I will say, "I never knew you"! The devil "believes in God and trembles"! So believing in Christ is no big deal. This is the bigger deal. Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery, "Go and sin no more"! When one believes and obeys what Jesus says, he ceases to be a victim of devils. He is "clothed in righteousness and in his right mind"! Then he is a true "Christian" in DEED, not just name only!
When Jesus cast devils out of the man who had the legion, he was found "clothed and in his right mind". One cannot choose a gay life-style and be "washed by the blood of the lamb"! Devils who promote the things Paul vociferously denounced in Romans 1 as Sodomitic possession are in the "unwashed" and they are still possessed by unclean spirits.
KJV 2Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
This does not mean that in the end, they shall not be changed. The Clay Master has His own time to remold clay vessels into vessels of pleasure, Jeremiah 18:1-6. Until He does that work, you must expect tares to be entwined about the wheat. In the end He shall say to the reapers, "Gather the wheat into my barn, but bind the tares in bundles to be burned. As long as a gay person remains gay, he has not submitted to the Altar! Hallowed fire burns out the error of Sodom. Shall it not be as in the days of Lot when the Son of man is revealed?! Sodom was burned for a valid reason. Remember lot's wife? "Living sacrifices" exhibit a "changed" behavior. Those who have not changed, have not made their bodies a living sacrifice unto God. Their "old man" remains! The life I live now is "Christ in me", not Sodom in me! Repentance of evil works MUST be followed by "alteration" of behavior because of hallowed fire, "the anointing". Do not be surprised that there are tares among the wheat in Christian circles and some of our brethren remain captives!
John,
GOOD NEWS, Inc.
The term "Christian" was first applied at Antioch, Acts 11:26. It implies that the practitioners believe in and practice the teachings of Jesus. There is "the rub", the practice or daily conduct. Jesus asked, "Why call me Lord, Lord and do not the things that I say? Many will come in my name saying, Lord, Lord have we not done this and that in your name? and I will say, "I never knew you"! The devil "believes in God and trembles"! So believing in Christ is no big deal. This is the bigger deal. Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery, "Go and sin no more"! When one believes and obeys what Jesus says, he ceases to be a victim of devils. He is "clothed in righteousness and in his right mind"! Then he is a true "Christian" in DEED, not just name only!
When Jesus cast devils out of the man who had the legion, he was found "clothed and in his right mind". One cannot choose a gay life-style and be "washed by the blood of the lamb"! Devils who promote the things Paul vociferously denounced in Romans 1 as Sodomitic possession are in the "unwashed" and they are still possessed by unclean spirits.
KJV 2Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
This does not mean that in the end, they shall not be changed. The Clay Master has His own time to remold clay vessels into vessels of pleasure, Jeremiah 18:1-6. Until He does that work, you must expect tares to be entwined about the wheat. In the end He shall say to the reapers, "Gather the wheat into my barn, but bind the tares in bundles to be burned. As long as a gay person remains gay, he has not submitted to the Altar! Hallowed fire burns out the error of Sodom. Shall it not be as in the days of Lot when the Son of man is revealed?! Sodom was burned for a valid reason. Remember lot's wife? "Living sacrifices" exhibit a "changed" behavior. Those who have not changed, have not made their bodies a living sacrifice unto God. Their "old man" remains! The life I live now is "Christ in me", not Sodom in me! Repentance of evil works MUST be followed by "alteration" of behavior because of hallowed fire, "the anointing". Do not be surprised that there are tares among the wheat in Christian circles and some of our brethren remain captives!
John,
GOOD NEWS, Inc.
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Stormy
Senior Contributor
Didaskomenos: You do not think I gave an honest response?
Wolsoley: Your statement would only be true, if there were no grace.
Ozarkpreterist:
When I look in the mirror... Do you know what I see? A sinner!
And these are the sins that trouble me the most.
I alone, will always be short of God's glory. I could never live a life that would be righteous in the eyes of God. That is why God sacrificed his son ... to pay the price of our sins.
Raging Atheist: I knew I would win you over!
Simple Christian: We all look at the sins of our fellow man and think ... Wow that person is not a Christian!!
I tell you the truth!
There is but one sin... Going against the will of God.
We all sin against God.
But, I am not a pessimistic Christian.
Indeed, I am happy beyond words to know God!
What I could never do... he has done.
God is LOVE!
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Didaskomenos
Voiced Bilabial Spirant
Certainly, but I was afraid you were scolding us for talking about homosexuality, and I was simply saying that we are "allowed" to talk about it if someone is really wondering and not just trying to stir up debate.
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Stormy,
No offense, but that is not what I asked. My question was what does God see when HE looks at you. Does He define you or set your identity as sinner or saint?
Moreover, I am sure you will agree that you are no longer alone. You are wonderfully joined with Christ. He is in you and you are in Him. Therefore, you are a partaker of His glory. True, this is by God's doing, but it is done.
Ozark
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Stormy,
To add to Ozark, I would say it's may be a good idea to start looking at yourself the same way God looks at you.
To add to Ozark, I would say it's may be a good idea to start looking at yourself the same way God looks at you.
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Stormy
Senior Contributor
We are going to have to agree to disagree. I know what it is to LOVE how Jesus taught. I am walking with my Lord. We work together each day to bring more of his light into my life. But I do not see perfection in my soul... but rather a work in progress. That is not to say that my salvation is insecure. I know that my Savior has given me a guarantee purchased by his sacrifice on the cross. But you will never be able to make me feel worthy of such a gift.
May God Bless you.
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Basically you are asking if a Christian can be a sinner. Absolutely. We all are. Homosexual behavior is a sin, just like any other sin.
What matters is that the sinner repent and try not to sin in the future.
What matters is that the sinner repent and try not to sin in the future.
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actually...according to a previous poster, we all have an out since we can sin all we want...cause it's not us doing it but this universal entity called sin that is inside of us, just like the flu virus. Hey...maybe that applies too! I don't have the flu, I'm not sneezing...it is the demon of sneeze that is sneezing, so I don't have to ask pardon for that snot that landed all over...it was the entity of snot that did it....no officer, it wasn't me that shot that man...it was the demon entity called gunpowder that pulled the trigger....
Hey...maybe that applies too! I don't have the flu, I'm not sneezing...it is the demon of sneeze that is sneezing, so I don't have to ask pardon for that snot that landed all over...it was the entity of snot that did it....no officer, it wasn't me that shot that man...it was the demon entity called gunpowder that pulled the trigger....
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ah...there's the rub...and that was my point earlier. If you are a person who is homosexual and thinks and says that it's ok, normal behavior then you are deceived and your faith in question, because scripture plainly says that it is wrong, it is a sin. A sinning, unrepentant person who calls themself a Christian really needs to examine that claim. Note the operative term UNREPENTANT. A person who sins, falls short of the mark, but who truly repents of that sin....well, that is simply human.
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