useing vouchers

Originally posted by Stormy
Now think of how the Public High Schools of the future will be... when all the Christians leave. Will it be where you want your kid to spend his days?

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Do you intentionally try to be simple, stereotypical, prejudice and offensive, or does it just come naturally?

And yes.  I will happily send my kid to a public school: there is such a thing as an intelligent, well behaved, heathen.  Geez... you close minded... narrow... aarrrggghhh!!! *stomps out for fresh air*

You know a lot about this Humble; good points again.

To be honest Stormy the loss of the Christians themselves doesn't bother me. I don't equate that with good behavior. Some Christians impress me with their ethics, and many quite frankly do not. So, if that is your angle, it's not ringing a bell for me. What does bother me is the separation of upper class children from lower class children (along with the minorities that are over-represented in the lower classes). This effectively ensures that critical resources will be diverted away from the public schools, and what's left will not provide much of an education. If push came to shove I would certainly try to get my children into the better schools, but as a matter of public policy, I don't want to see that many children abandoned.

Sandardized tests are a bane to education. I was in Las Vegas when our schools were doing so well on these tests. Turns out the schools were helping the kids cheat the tests the whole time. I've been in situations were i was pressured to teach the test in college, and I have refused every time. Some day it might cost me my job.

They are increasingly pushing that into the colleges now. It's done in the name of assessment, but the end result is either meaningless tests or tests that force teachers to cover a narrow range of content. I keep hearing other teachers ay, you can teach anything you want, but all the students should take the same test. They think that preserves academic freedom, but if I know my students will have to answer a bunch of wrote questions about what Thomas Jefferson said (and that my effectiveness will be gauged by there performance), then I'm not going to spend as much time on things like social history or environmental history. I could respond by trying to gain control of the standards, but if another teacher doesn't think environmental history is that important, then I'd just as soon he not focus on that. So, the assessment movement is a lose-lose proposal for me. Combine that with "Distance learning", an over-emphasis on computer technology, and other so-called innovations, and pretty soon we will have a wonderful system of McEducation to help people avoid really thinking about anything even further into adulthood.

Originally posted by Brimshack
You know a lot about this Humble; good points again.

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Thanks man.

Combine that with "Distance learning", an over-emphasis on computer technology, and other so-called innovations, and pretty soon we will have a wonderful system of McEducation to help people avoid really thinking about anything even further into adulthood.

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Right on brother. That sort of reminds me of a UCLA lecture by Benjamin Barber on his book Jihad vs McWorld. It seems like we're so eager to spread the edges of the icing, till some places start to mold before we can get the cake into the freezer. We don't need computerized tests and computerized teachers. We need real, interactive, intelligent(can't get that out of a computer) instructors to help students. We need real live humans that can interact and flow against and with the students and urge them on to achieve self sufficiency. The thing is, all these politicians that go sprinkling the disadvantage public schools with computers are forgetting that the roof leaks, the a/c is broken, and the teachers salaries in no way compensate their effort and the stress they go through on a daily basis, possibly even due to fear for their very lives! These students are not happy. Some hate their teachers; some want them dead! Why? Because they don't have internet access in every classroom? No... because the government doesn't respect the humanity of these kids enough to pay quality teachers what they deserve in order to sufficiently guide and instruct, and help, and care for these neglected youth. Aye caramba, I'm gonna have to stop for now... this is too upsetting.

*passes the torch to Brim*

Ah, I see that this is a thorn in your side too. Sometimes I think the point is that with all the rhetoric about preparoing people for the job market, anybody who can read, write, and do a little math is really overqualified for a great deal of the jobs out there. So, the real idea is to keep people in remedial instructions for as long as possible so as to cut down competition in the job market. We keep procrastinating on actual education. Now days the first couple years of college are to teach the students what they were supposed to learn in high school, and what should be the college education actually begins in the upper division courses. A lucky few are fast-tracked in the advanced courses through high schools and may get into the elite universities. The rest of us are warehoused through high school and get maybe a little instruction in the state universities. Education is dead!

(Todays moment of unbridled pessimism brought to by Brimshack, who will not doubt start banging his head against the wall of manufactured stupidity in question once again, just as soon as last semster's bumps heal over.)

Originally posted by user 956


Read Job 11:11. Your sister is a sinner. Your parents have failed God by raising such a wicked woman.  This is an affront to God's greatness. She is going to hell for her sins. As are you, and your family, for the wicked and the consorts of the wicked shall pay for their sins with eternal damnation.

 

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boy that's sad.  it doesn't matter what anyone personally believes?  If anyone in their family is a sinner, then they are condemded, right?   I am so glad that the God that I believe in does not hold a brother/sister/mother's sin against someone else.


Are you saying that God would condemn a believer to hell, just because his/her brother is not a believer?  If so, what a sad person you must be.

By the way, I promised myself that I would not respond until I had read the entire thread, but I could not help myself here.

Originally posted by user 956


Have you read the book of Job, or the passage I cited? The only mockery here is your attitude towards the word of God.

 

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Yes, I have.  I know that the God I serve does not hold the sins of any person against another person. 

Each person answers for their own sins. 

Originally posted by Brimshack
Ah, I see that this is a thorn in your side too. Sometimes I think the point is that with all the rhetoric about preparoing people for the job market, anybody who can read, write, and do a little math is really overqualified for a great deal of the jobs out there. So, the real idea is to keep people in remedial instructions for as long as possible so as to cut down competition in the job market. We keep procrastinating on actual education. Now days the first couple years of college are to teach the students what they were supposed to learn in high school, and what should be the college education actually begins in the upper division courses. A lucky few are fast-tracked in the advanced courses through high schools and may get into the elite universities. The rest of us are warehoused through high school and get maybe a little instruction in the state universities. Education is dead!

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Ah yes, I see we are both well acquainted with vain educational repetition. I'll use mathematics courses as an example. Let's take a little trip, shall we? (High School course are one year long; College courses are one semester long.)

High School:

1. Geometry
2. Algebra I (given credit from course in middle school)
3. Algebra II
4. Trigonometry & Advanced Algebra (first & second "semesters", respectively)
5. AP Calculus

College:

1. College Algebra (previous remedials may be taken if standards are not met, including Basic Mathematics, Intermediate Mathematics/Algebra, etc.!)
2. Trigonometry
3. Calculus I
4. Calculus II
5. Calculus III
6. Calculus IV
7. *Other upper level courses

Whew! I need a few visual aids, haha. Anyways, let's examine this from a college curricula standpoint.

College Algebra is basically -- as my high school math teacher himself claimed -- high school Algebra II compressed into one semester. But wait a minute! What about the kids that get stuck in Algebra I in high school because they were stuck on the lower mathematical track in junior high?! What are they preparing for: remedial, "math for dummies" courses? How about... basic calculator operation? Yes, 'tis excellent preparation for cashier positions.

Trig. is next. Ok, I can see a small similarity between Trig. and Geometry, but again, Geometry is a full year course! And who in the world needs the high school geometrical construction exercises except a very specialized drafter/engineer position? (Which of course became obsolete with the boom of CAD and plotters )

Now we move on to the big boys, Calculus. Hopefully, the student has been blessed enough to have taken AP Calculus and AP'ed out of Calculus I&II.(*standardized test alert!*) Otherwise, the following ensues. The student goes to the campus bookstore and buys this huge, expensive math book with what on the cover? Wha-what?! Calculus with Analytic Geometry?! Wait, I spent a year on that in high school, and got it again for a semester in Trig. But perhaps it's a significant extension... NOPE!!! Not only is there a chapter that covers Trig. I'll need for the course, but there's also an introductory chapter at the beginning of the book that gives me most of the algebra I'll need! True, some algebra and trig. are disclosed and "reviewed" along the way through the book, but heck, what in the world were those two other Algebra and Trig. courses I took?! (*cough* tuition *cough*)

Education may be dead, but let's hope that the spirit of learning in the hearts of dreamers is not.

Arfg! MY old pet peive was grammar, and the back to basics 'reform' that led to the addition of another year of English about the time I was dropping out of High School. Somebody had the brilliant idea that if students didn't know how to tell a verb from a noun when they graduated, then another year on that topic would serve them better than literature or something else that might be, um, INTERESTING! As if the initial 3rd grade lesson on that topic were not sufficient. Nobody fails to learn grammar because it's hard they fail to learn it because it's boring, pointless, and everybody knows your just going to get anotyher lesson on the exact same thing next year. The way most people learn grammar is when they get into a foreign language course, and knowing the componnts of speech is actually the difference between learning something new and not learning anything. But no, let's just do more of what already isn't working. Perhaps if we use a failed strategy often enough it will eventually work.

Hey Humble, did you ever hear of te 'learning-centered revolution'? One of the many pseudo-reforms that sweeps the education system every so often. Well our administration bought this one lock stock and barrel. the idea was that schools were to teaching-centered and that we needed to become more 'learning-centerd'. And some con artist named Terry Obanion built this distinction without a difference into an entire supposed reform movement (mostly by taking independent reforms done by other schools for their own reasons and declaring that they were part of his own movement).

The book that we were all expected to read contained such wonderful tripe as a think-tank study that determined on-line courses were the best way to facilitate learning at the colllege level. Then you check the footnote and see that the think-tank was funded by IBM. I lost so much respect for some of my colleagues who bought this crap. We'd have all these discussions about how to be 'learning-centered'. And it was all theoretical BS and no students were ever present to make suggestions. Every now and then somebody would interrupt the grand discussion with a practical suggestion like a cooperative day-care center since a very high percentage of our students are unwed mothers who frequently miss classes because of their children (or bring them to class). This could actually have met a student need, but we'd get this long uncomfortable silence, and then they'd go back to discussing what it meant to be 'learning-centered." I wanted to vomit.

U of Montana here, possibly one of the most corrupt, ridiculous organizations in the world of education. From the stories I hear, its pretty much like the mafia: if you're at the top you can get away with anything, but if you're at the bottom you get... well... jerked around... like students...

Yes, AP classes are a blessing for those who take advantage of them. I got to start with 9 credits at college, although I should have had 12, (stupid AP Calc, I had to waste more tuition money on an AP test I got a 3 on and its not even part of my major).

Originally posted by Brimshack
And it was all theoretical BS and no students were ever present to make suggestions.

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students are never represented.... period... they get the shaft no matter what... especially out of state students....

Regarding being "stowed" away in some state college, however, I would argue that it doesnt really matter where you go, its what you do when you're there. College is basically like life: it is what you make it.

My $0.02

I felt the AP tests were worth it. I started college with credit for Cal I, both freshman English classes, a funky history class, both governments and basic Economics, Calculus based Physics (Mechanics)....

Still failed out my first take through college. Too much fun. I knew one person that liked Axis and Allies and Risk and Shogun in high school. I met hundreds at A&M.

Second time through, paying for it myself instead of scholarships, I did much better.

I'm inclined to agree that you can get an education no matter what the institution is. There are some real differences though, particular in the area of general education core requirements. The top Universities are more likely to force you to take tough courses outseide your main area. students can still learn this stuff if they choose to, but of course we all have that tendency to follow the path of least resistance. Another potential difference is in keeping up to date. Many of my teachers at UNLV were very good, but since they weren't publishing much (if they were, they'd have been elsewhere) they were often more focused on out-of-date stuff that contemporary discussions. There were a number of recent trends that no-one at UNLV was discussing at the time. So, that was one area where I felt improvement could have been made (it has). The biggest problem is in the introductory courses. At state universities these often become remedial reading and writing courses whether the instructor intends it or not. You'd like to get down to business of the course (say history) and assign original research and ask challenging essay questions, ect, but many of the students haven't yet learned what a Quaker is and can't write a complete sentence (nevermind whether it is standard English or not). So, you end up assigning a survey text, and spending most of your grading time teaching them how to write a coherent essay. There are real opportunity costs to this. Some of my friends from Ivy League Universities have a very different attitude towards even introductory courses. Where I would be thinking about a survey text and maybe 1 or 2 case studies, they think about assigning 6 or more of case studies, and they couldn't care less about survey texts. I'm not saying someone form a state U. should hang their head low, I don't, but I am saying that the high-schoolozation of college has mde considerable inroads in many of the state Universities.

hahaha... you sound like a history professor I had... his lectures took the form of rants and occasionally he would stop to make a reference to some obscure book that came to mind and we would all stare blankly... then he would ask if any of us had read that book, which of course we hadn't, much less heard of it... then he would go off on a tirade about high school literature courses don't use any decent novels for about half an hour... man, I hated him...

I don't consider myself very well read, but I at least have heard of the TITLE of most important books, so I feel pretty confident referring to the books he expected as obscure. Wanna talk about educational opportunities? This guy spent more class time getting himself infuriated over our lack of his idea of a high school education than he did actually teaching...

Originally posted by Brimshack
Hey Humble, did you ever hear of te 'learning-centered revolution'? One of the many pseudo-reforms that sweeps the education system every so often. Well our administration bought this one lock stock and barrel. the idea was that schools were to teaching-centered and that we needed to become more 'learning-centerd'. And some con artist named Terry Obanion built this distinction without a difference into an entire supposed reform movement (mostly by taking independent reforms done by other schools for their own reasons and declaring that they were part of his own movement).

The book that we were all expected to read contained such wonderful tripe as a think-tank study that determined on-line courses were the best way to facilitate learning at the colllege level. Then you check the footnote and see that the think-tank was funded by IBM. I lost so much respect for some of my colleagues who bought this crap. We'd have all these discussions about how to be 'learning-centered'. And it was all theoretical BS and no students were ever present to make suggestions. Every now and then somebody would interrupt the grand discussion with a practical suggestion like a cooperative day-care center since a very high percentage of our students are unwed mothers who frequently miss classes because of their children (or bring them to class). This could actually have met a student need, but we'd get this long uncomfortable silence, and then they'd go back to discussing what it meant to be 'learning-centered." I wanted to vomit.

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It's complete and absolute crap.

"the idea was that schools were to teaching-centered and that we needed to become more 'learning-centerd'."

Hah. Please tell me I'm having some twisted, demented nightmare. Learning-centered over teacher-centered? That's like having a diet that's food/eating-centered instead of nutrition-centered. What are these guys thinking? The greatest interaction in the world is between teachers and students, masters and apprentices.(do i detect a hint of light sabre??? ) The optimum training is one-on-one, even though it's impractical and has a potential for bias or dogma. The point is, we don't need more teachers, we don't need more computers. We need moderate numbers of high-quality instructors that revere the classics, but aren't afraid to dig their claws into some contemporary stuff!

I know what you're saying though. The students have been run through the same low-end education mill a hundred times, and by the time they get to college, not only do they still not understand the basics, but they also dread having to seriously learn them! They've seen it enough times to make them barf, but they've never been pushed to successfully apply it. And when they finally DO get pushed, they're all the more enraged! It's like reading the times tables over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and never actually performing a complex multi-digit multiplicative operation.

And talking about meeting the needs of students, childcare could very well could have been a significant beneficial contributor. It's like when Jesus wanted to communicate the Gospel to the masses. Did he get their attention with multiple PR deacons and launch a committee that would optimize the audience by scooting the people around into different positions so that everyone could get an obstructed eyeview of Himself? NO!!! (duh) He fed them. What a concept! Tend to the human needs of the students, THEN teach... aye caramba...

It seems like they want to treat students like computers rather than humans. They want to "download" the info. instead of having them interact with and apply and think critically about the lectures they hear. They want them to hurry up and "learn"(memorize) the material instead of being taught. There is no education here, only "grades".

and you sound like my psychotic geometry teacher in 10th grade... he used to talk to a picture of his dead mother that he stuck to his podium... and refer to his imaginary girlfriend as "The Duchess"... he was a retired boxer and I heard all sorts of rumors about the northern lights and alaskan hores *shrugs*.... anyway, he used to say, "I can't teach you guys anything. Its up to you whether you learn anything or not. I'm just here to show you stuff. Isn't that so, mother? HEY! *pounds on board with marker* PAY ATTENTION!!"...

needless to say, the best teacher I ever had... though, I don't know what that says about the state of our education system...

"Download the information." I'll be stealing that phrase now, thank you Joe.

And Rage, I'm still waiting for your history paper! DIDN'T YOUR HIGH SCHOOL TEACHERS TELL YOU TO GET THINGS IN ONE TIME!!???!!

Originally posted by Raging Atheist
and you sound like my psychotic geometry teacher in 10th grade... he used to talk to a picture of his dead mother that he stuck to his podium... and refer to his imaginary girlfriend as "The Duchess"... he was a retired boxer and I heard all sorts of rumors about the northern lights and alaskan hores *shrugs*.... anyway, he used to say, "I can't teach you guys anything. Its up to you whether you learn anything or not. I'm just here to show you stuff. Isn't that so, mother? HEY! *pounds on board with marker* PAY ATTENTION!!"...

needless to say, the best teacher I ever had... though, I don't know what that says about the state of our education system...

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Read this: My Last Duchess

"This grew; I gave commands; / Then all smiles stopped together. There she stands / As if alive." - Robert Browning, "My Last Duchess", lines 45b-47a, bolding mine

*gulp*... "as if"?!?

I admit, thats a heck of a coincidence... but Im pretty sure thats all it is... Mr. Slaughter (yeah... that his name) was more into the the WWF and NWO... any pro-wrestling buffs in the house? picture a 5'0" man in the tackiest suit you can imagine strutting around the room awkwardly because he has a bad leg, regailing you with the exploits of the Jeckyl Brothers on last nights Smackdown match...

Originally posted by Raging Atheist
I admit, thats a heck of a coincidence... but Im pretty sure thats all it is... Mr. Slaughter (yeah... that his name) was more into the the WWF and NWO... any pro-wrestling buffs in the house? ..

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WOOHOO !!!!!

Rocky..Rocky..Rocky...Rocky !!!!!!

Hard Knocks and Cheap Pops...... Sometimes I wish there was a "I was into wrestling, even when it wasn't cool" ID card.

Maybe then I could get my good seats at live events again, like I did before it was all the rage.

*looks around confused* what the... where are we? what was this thread about? whats going on?!