144,000???? Denominations Ofcourse!
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That view sounds scriptural to me, as it harmonizes with Daniel 12.Tavita said:
Daniel 12:1 `And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great head, who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time, and at that time do thy people ESCAPE, every one who is found written in the book[Remant sealed?].
Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice out of the heaven, saying, `Come forth out of her, My people,
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TroyTrojansFan
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Barraco said:
Boy, I've never heard of an explanation like that. And to say that there is no 7 year tribulation, no pre-trib rapture, etc. is just plain ignoring of scripture. I don't have enough posts yet to provide an outside link, but you really need to read an article written by Jack Kelley which talks about the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14.
Dr. Arnold Frutchenbaum suggests that the 144,000 are Jews located all over the world, as they already have OT theology down, and would only need to brush up on the NT. Further, the Jews are spread out all over the world, so they would already speak the language of the population that they are to witness to. Currently this would take about 6 years to reach. 4 years for seminary and 2 years to learn the language of the mission field. The Jews would be able to be ready for their task much faster. So, I don't believe that the 144,000 Jews will be Israelis as thos eliving in Israel, but rather living in the world.
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TroyTrojansFan
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Here's a good article on the 144,000 of Revelation.
http://www.gracethrufaith.com/ikvot/the-144000-of-rev-7-and-14
http://www.gracethrufaith.com/ikvot/the-144000-of-rev-7-and-14
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TroyTrojansFan said:Boy, I've never heard of an explanation like that. And to say that there is no 7 year tribulation, no pre-trib rapture, etc. is just plain ignoring of scripture. I don't have enough posts yet to provide an outside link, but you really need to read an article written by Jack Kelley which talks about the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14.
Dr. Arnold Frutchenbaum suggests that the 144,000 are Jews located all over the world, as they already have OT theology down, and would only need to brush up on the NT. Further, the Jews are spread out all over the world, so they would already speak the language of the population that they are to witness to. Currently this would take about 6 years to reach. 4 years for seminary and 2 years to learn the language of the mission field. The Jews would be able to be ready for their task much faster. So, I don't believe that the 144,000 Jews will be Israelis as thos eliving in Israel, but rather living in the world.
Seriously, where does it say anything about a 7 year tribulation? I heard about three and a half years, but that's taken out of context completely when regarding the end. How can everyone miss the truth about 2 Thessalonians by ignoring the biggest tribulation Christians have ever gone through? Yes the so called 'heretics' that were brutally murdered amounted up to about 50 million by the 18th century, and it only started in the 12th century.
So where does the Bible say anything about a 7 year tribulation and our escaping it? I think people want another tribulation, which is sad. Because when they are presented an alternative view, they ignore any information that the Holy Spirit may be trying to give them and they refuse to even consider that maybe everyone has it figured out all wrong.
When Jesus described the end in the Olivet Discourse, he made no mention about a tribulation, but he did mention all the signs that we currently see today. He even says that he will come like a thief in the night. What better way to come unexpectedly than to come while people are looking for the coming of the false christ first, when in truth the false christ has come and is already here?! Jesus said when we see these things happening, to look up, not look around.
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Daywolf
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It's a calculation of the 70 weeks of Daniel. Read the following: http://www.gotquestions.org/tribulation.htmlBarraco said:
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Daywolf said:
Ah, but how do you know that that calculation is correct. God didn't say anything about delaying any of that time. It doesn't sound like God, to keep his children in suspense for over 2,000 years. He was working the whole time like a good Father would do for his children. If you stray from the Gospel of Jesus Christ in any manner, prophecy will mislead you. The truth about the 490 years is that it already ended. There was no talk about a third temple being built or the Jews ever living in Jerusalem again. What the 490 years represent is the covenant with the Jewish people and the city of Jerusalem. It was to last 490 years after the official decree to rebuild the city of Jerusalem. Why do you think Daniel said he understood the vision and was saddened by it, in chapter 10? Since the book of Daniel only mentioned the rebuilding of ONE Jerusalem, and not a second time, then what do think the tribulation was that the 490 years was regarding? Jesus Chist told his desciples that he will always be there, even unto the END OF THE AGE. That means that ALL that call on his name and do the will of his Father will be safe. The 144,000 stand for the elect who follow God's commandments and keep the testimony of Jesus Christ. That is in context and without speculation. There is so much speculation when you put a tribulation or pre-trib rapture. Why? Because the Bible isn't explaining it itself, we are, and thats not correct interpretation. And if there is some great tribulation coming, then what about the Christians that suffered at the hands of the Crusaders and Inquistion and Holy Roman Empire during the dark ages? That has been a terrible tribulation for the saints, one that even the Holocaust of WWII can't compare to. So many people died for what they believed, that it would be pure avoidance of historical proof. Jesus is coming soon, and many will be caught off guard because they are waiting for a secret rapture, or a false christ, or a seven year treaty, or a great tribulation; none of which will never happen.
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You scare me!!! If you are justified by the church or works you are destined for hell "There is no other name under heaven, given among men, wherby ye must be saved" We are all saved by christ alone And with 50 million marters to date we are far more than 144000.Barraco said:
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Um, no. I said that the 144,000 are justified by faith alone and NOT by the Church. Read my posts a little more thoroughly. If you already have a preconception about a certain view before you actually read it, what they say won't make sense anyway.inhisdebt said:
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No, it doesn't say the God's sanctuary would be built, it said that his sactuary would be 'IN THE MIDST OF THE THEM FOREVER MORE' thus meaning the eternal heavenly sanctuary, not a sanctuary of sticks and stones. There will be no third temple regardless if people built it or not. The temple is in heaven, where our Lord ministers for us each day.Daywolf said:
Hebrews 9:11 BUT CHRIST BEING COME AN HIGH PRIEST OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, BY A GREATER AND MORE PERFECT TABERNACLE, NOT MADE WITH HANDS, THAT IS TO SAY, NOT OF THIS BUILDING;
I hope this reveals something about the future of the covenant. It is a new covenant extended to all people. To be more sincere, I believe that the literal kingdom and the literal temple and the literal worship system will be restored when Christ himself comes, not when the Jews get the Temple Mount. Don't get caught up in OT prophecy. You need to remember that the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus Christ. The covenant with the Israelites was to bring about the Messiah through a nation made holy by God. Once done, a new covenant was made with all men, those that accepted Christ and followed him even unto death. This is the truth about the Gospel, it cannot stray from Jesus Christ or its just a bunch of prophecies. God bless
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Daywolf
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Barraco said:
My answer wasn’t concerning the temple but the part that states “or the Jews ever living in Jerusalem again.” I just left it in to try to keep the context readable. Funny how you didn't bother to remark on that when it was so obvious my reply... Here I’ll hack it up for you
Barraco said:
Ezekiel 37 answers that. They are returned from among the “nations” from being dispersed (wherever they have gone v21). This is not pointing to a captivity in a single country, this is among the world. God promises he will bring them back, just as he has done/is doing now, and the rest of this chapter simply covers the promises that will in the future be fulfilled which happens after the next few chapters. As for the temple, maybe I’ll reply to that or maybe I wont, this reply, as my last one was just dealing with one part of your condensed question/remark.
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Daywolf
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Whaaaaat? You gotta be joking, right? I read the NT and the OT as one single inspired work from God. You cant have an understandable NT w/o the OT to support it. Basically, everything in the NT is IN the OT! The OT validates the NT. They are inseparable especially in regards to prophecy. I think this is really the issue you should deal with before you even start trying to understand prophecy.Barraco said:
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Excellent post!!!!!!Daywolf said:Whaaaaat? You gotta be joking, right? I read the NT and the OT as one single inspired work from God. You can’t have an understandable NT w/o the OT to support it. Basically, everything in the NT is IN the OT! The OT validates the NT. They are inseparable especially in regards to prophecy. I think this is really the issue you should deal with before you even start trying to understand prophecy.
Besides, why should I worry as all the prophecies are on Jerusalem and Daniel's/Jacob's people [Daniel 12/Olivet Discours.
Daniel 9:24 70 7's, he is decreeing [#2852] on your people and your holy city, to shut up[#03607] the transgression[#06588] and finish[#08552] sealing[#02856] up sin["02403] and to atone/cover[#03722] over iniquity[#05771] and come into/enter[#0395] in righteousness[#06664] of eons[#05769] and to seal up[#02856] vision[#02377] and prophet[#05030] and to annoint[#04886] holy[#06944] holy ones[#06944] .
ezekiel 22:19 "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: 'Because you have all become dross, therefore behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. 20 '[As men] gather silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin into the midst of a furnace, to blow fire on it, to melt [it;] so I will gather [you] in My anger and in My fury, and I will leave [you there] and melt you.
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Daywolf said:
I apologize. You quoted my description about the temple. Or atleast I thought you did.
And you don't think that this is referring to all the Christians gathered together from all parts of the world to be a part of the Heavenly Jerusalem? To seperate the Christians from the seed of Jacob is to take away God's promise with us. Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Jesus commanded his desciples (who were of the seed of Jacob) to spread the Gospel to all the nations and to keep all that he had commanded them. He said that he would be with his desciples (FOLLOWERS) unto the end of the world, emphasising that there is no distinguishment between Jew and Gentile. That is seperating God's favor. Jerusalem that now stands is not the Holy City. For God alone is holy and he is not there. There is no longer a distinguishment between Jew and Gentile, for the covenant is one and we are born of the Same Spirit when we accept the Same Lord, and belong to the same Holy City in heaven. That is our reward.
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Rafael
Only time enough for love
Your original post that I commented on contradicted what the scripture said of Jesus and Abraham, so I would take the Holy spirit's wording over yours. Of course Jesus is a blessing to the world but that blessing is not accepted by the majority or the Lord would not say that few would be saved although many would be called (Mt 22:14; Mt 7:14).Daywolf said:
As far as blood goes, evidently it is important to God or He would not make a "blood" covenant with a man such as Abraham and his seed; nor would God inspire the words of scripture that detail the natural branches and the grafted in ones, following the seed )blood) of Abraham throughout the world to bless them and find then as Jesus said He would ( Mat. 15:24) Did not Jesus say He came to find the house of Israel - those related to the "firstborn" of God by blood, Ephraim, in scripture or did the Holy Spirit waste time by having those important verses put down in scripture for us to read? It is easy to skip by the scriptures that follow the blood, but they are there for a reason. They are there to be understood with the balance of scripture that speak of the house of Israel and the house of Judah that Hebrews 8:5-8 says is to whom the New Covenant is to - not to be discounted and be replaced by our own ideas such as what the replacement theologists do by always doing away with the "Jews" or renaming Israel as the Church. The scriptures tell us that only a remnant of both houses of Israel and their companions will be saved. All the rest will follow after the great harlot and her daughters that calls itself the "Church" in the last days. They will promote false prophets, lawlessness, and license to sin. Scripture even speaks of a second exodus where the people who finally decide to obey God with action rather than lip service come out of the religions that promote lawlessness and license to sin and head where ever the Lord sends them - eventually home and to the land promised by God but never completely occupied.
Jeremiah 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
Rom. 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;
Isa 10:20 ¶ Then at last those left in Israel and Judah will trust the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. They will no longer depend on the Assyrians, who would destroy them.
21 A remnant of them will return to the Mighty God.
22 But though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand on the seashore, only a few of them will return at that time. The LORD has rightly decided to destroy his people.
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MY concern was that the statement as given, insinuated that this group was special because of salvation through faith,As apposed to others, if not great. as to the 144,000 denominations i would say that is a stretch but who knows.Barraco said:
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It is not denominations, but the first fruits. The 144,000 are gathered before His coming.
They are gathered before His Return. The order of this is all laid out by Paul:
This is identification of how everyone will live, through Christ.
This clearly shows that there are first fruits who have received gifts before His coming. Then there are those that receive it at His coming.
Activit of what will be done during His reign.
Christ is coming back as the lion of the tribe of Judah, and will be ruling with an iron rod. But even at the end of the millenial reign, Gog / Magog and associated nations will come against Him. (see Revelation 20:8)
This is corresponding to what happens after the end of the millenial reign, when death is destroyed in the lake of fire:
They are gathered before His Return. The order of this is all laid out by Paul:
This is identification of how everyone will live, through Christ.
This clearly shows that there are first fruits who have received gifts before His coming. Then there are those that receive it at His coming.
Activit of what will be done during His reign.
Christ is coming back as the lion of the tribe of Judah, and will be ruling with an iron rod. But even at the end of the millenial reign, Gog / Magog and associated nations will come against Him. (see Revelation 20:8)
This is corresponding to what happens after the end of the millenial reign, when death is destroyed in the lake of fire:
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Daywolf
Ferret snacks!
Hmmm……… well if that’s so and he whispered that to you I would expect that he is screaming at you concerning the Church NOT being the 144,000 or accepting any form of replacement theology.Rafael said:
There was no contradiction, only someone’s disbelief without and real scripture or reasoning to back up their position. Just because Israel was promised to be a mighty nation does not mean they would bless the world through mingling blood with the world (which does not support "all") , there is no blessing in that for the world! The blessing is through Christ that that passage was speaking of! That Christ would come through his seed and bless the world. Jesus was the one that took the sins of all the world! That was the blessing!
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