144,000???? Denominations Ofcourse!

Re 14:1 - And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.



Both the pic and scripture above show why I find it difficult to believe that the 144000 would be gentile christians , the jehova's witnesses tried that one on me and that didn't work either....lol

The name on this jewish boys forehead( Tefillin or Phylactery) when pronounced in english is "SHIN" , and is one of the many names of God.

I guess you could say that this boy has jesus fathers name written in his forehead.

12 gates to get into the New Jerusalem and 12 tribes; 12,000 from each tribe.
None of us know if we are related by blood to one of these tribes or not, but God does. Remember His covenant to Abraham? He said that the blood descendants of Abraham would be like that of the stars in the sky or the sands of the sea - which is a lot!
When the house of Israel was scattered into the Gentile nations, the prophets foretold that they would become a lion among and within those nations, that they would dwell in a pleasant place, that they would take their children to the murderer, and that they would eventually be called back in to the fold by a unifying shepherd who would unite the two houses of Israel once and for all. The Church is part of that, being the house of Israel while the "jews" are those of the house of Judah. These two are the two witnesses on earth to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
144,000 will not be the final number saved, though. That is just the number of "virgins" who come through the tribulation, as described in scripture.

Notice who Jesus said He came to find:

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Ezekial 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

Hosea 1:9 Then God said: "Call his name Lo-Ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God.
10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There it shall be said to them, ‘You are sons of the living God.’
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Hosea 9:13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.

Micah 5:7 ¶ And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.
8 And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.
9 Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off.
10 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots:
11 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strong holds:
12 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers:
13 Thy graven images also will I cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee; and thou shalt no more worship the work of thine hands.
14 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee: so will I destroy thy cities.
15 And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.

Barraco said:

What do you think? God bless

Click to expand...

The Church has 7 lamp stands (Rev 1:12-20) not 12. Israel, the Jews have 12 tribes and this passage regarding the 144,000 specifically covers the 12 tribes of Israel, not 7 lamp stands or 7 groups of the Church(parts of the whole). We, the Church, are not the Jews, there is a clear distinction. The Jews were never replaced by the Church as a whole, the tree was not torn down, but we are grafted in. The time will come, as it is coming to pass, when God will deal with the Jews and the Church will be complete and move to it’s next stage which has nothing to do with the 144,000 that are called from the 12 tribes of the Jews. To me, it's like trying to hammer a square block into a round hole to say they the 144,000 are anyone other than the Jews.

Barraco said:

Why is it so hard to believe? Because of the rapture belief? All that is just as much speculation (if not more than) as the view I presented.

Click to expand...

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
Because that is specifically what the bible says. If one starts to replace “Israel” with “the Church” (replacement theology) than it turns coherent scripture into garble at every turn of the page. I didn’t have rapture in mind when writing a response, this is irrelevant to any rapture view, but of course it conflicts with any form of dispensationalism which shows (holds to) a distinction between Israel and the Church. Even if a rapture were to happen at the end of the GT, the Jews are to be the ones of the 144,000, it does not effect any rapture view.

Barraco said:

All I'm saying is that Rev. 13 and 14 are part of the same time sequence, and thus if you follow it in history, it would seem to skip the denominations of Christians if you directly refer it to those who claim the Israelite blood. How do we even know that we didn't directly descend from the Israelites, seeing that they scattered into the Gentile nations and thus bred with Gentiles. It seems more far fetched to say that the 144,000 are purely Israelites.

Click to expand...

Because Rev 13-14 makes no mention of the Church at all. The Church is mentioned distinctively in chapters 1-3, suddenly its spiritualized into being Israel in chapters 7, 13 or 14? That is just not consistent with the book, or with any book. The Jews are a distinctive group just as the Church is distinctive, it does no matter what blood one has once in the Church, it’s all about the blood of Jesus alone for the Church and this never changes.

Daywolf said:

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
Because that is specifically what the bible says. If one starts to replace “Israel” with “the Church” (replacement theology) than it turns coherent scripture into garble at every turn of the page. I didn’t have rapture in mind when writing a response, this is irrelevant to any rapture view, but of course it conflicts with any form of dispensationalism which shows (holds to) a distinction between Israel and the Church. Even if a rapture were to happen at the end of the GT, the Jews are to be the ones of the 144,000, it does not effect any rapture view.
Because Rev 13-14 makes no mention of the Church at all. The Church is mentioned distinctively in chapters 1-3, suddenly its spiritualized into being Israel in chapters 7, 13 or 14? That is just not consistent with the book, or with any book. The Jews are a distinctive group just as the Church is distinctive, it does no matter what blood one has once in the Church, it’s all about the blood of Jesus alone for the Church and this never changes.

Click to expand...

I agree with Rafael, the two sticks joined together, the House of Judah and the House of Joseph (Ephraim) are the Jews and those that make up the Christian Church, of which it says this in the New Testament:


(Rom 11:23) And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

(Rom 11:24) For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

(Rom 11:25) For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;


Abraham was given the promise that his seed would fill the nations:


(Gen 22:17) indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.

(Gen 22:18) "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."


When the time came for Israel to bless Joseph’s two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh. Manasseh as the eldest of the two was to receive the firstborn blessing, however, under the Lord’s direction, Ephraim received the firstborn blessing:


(Gen 48:17) When Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on Ephraim's head, it displeased him; and he grasped his father's hand to remove it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head.

(Gen 48:18) Joseph said to his father, "Not so, my father, for this one is the firstborn. Place your right hand on his head."

(Gen 48:19) But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know; he also will become a people and he also will be great. However, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations."



After Solomon died Israel was divided into the northern (Israel/Ephraim) and southern (Judah) kingdoms, by the Lord’s direction: “This thing is from Me” 2 Chron 11:4

The northern kingdom, Israel or Ephraim, fell into serious idolatry, of which the prophets were sent time and again to give warning to return to the Lord and His ways. Because they wouldn’t listen, God dispersed the ten northern tribes to Assyria in 721-722 BC, and have never been heard of since. Judah was able to return to the Land after the Babylonian exile in 586 BC. The ten northern tribes, Israel/Ephraim , were sent into the world as prophesied, to become the Melo HaGoyim – the fullness of the Gentiles.

And as prophesied in Ezekiel 37, God says He will join once again, the House of Israel(Ephraim) and his companions and the House of Judah and his companions into One Stick in His Hand, and as one people they will rise up as a mighty army.


(Eze 37:10) So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.


The Jews returning to the land at present are mostly made up of the tribe of Judah, and in most synagogues on the Sabbath, the Jews say a prayer asking God to return the ten northern tribes. I’ve heard it said the Jews scattered now comprise all of the House of Israel, however, God told Abraham his seed would be as the stars in the heavens, and the sand on the sea shore, unable to be counted, right now, the Jews can be counted.

It’s my belief the ten northern tribes are scattered throughout the Christian church, having been already grafted into the tree, with Messiah as the root, and as the Jews return to Him, He makes us One Stick in His Hand.

Barraco said:

How do we even know that we didn't directly descend from the Israelites, seeing that they scattered into the Gentile nations and thus bred with Gentiles.

Click to expand...

Yes, you are so right. The 144,000 is the entire church made up of the tribe of Judah (Jews) and the rest of the 10 tribes described, who have been grafted into the olive tree - become one in His hand. The ten tribes have become so integrated and 'wild' that they are indiscernable and have become like the Gentiles, but God knows who they are.

The covenant given to Abraham was passed on by blood to Isaac and then to Jacob who fathered the tribes; Israel being his name after wrestling with the angel for a blessing - meaning "to strive with God".
After Jacob divided up the blessings among his sons, a civil war caused them to seperate into two bodies - the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Judah is only one name of a son by which people mistakenly call all the Israelites, "Jews" which was actually a slur or cursed name given to them by the Romans who despised this troublesome people who would not give up their identity to God. To Judah, Jacob gave the scepter of leadership, but it was Joseph's sons that received the covenant promise that God made with Abraham - to be the father of many nations and have his seed spead like the stars in the sky. Ten of the twelve tribes of Israel followed Ephraim, the firstborn of God, while only two, Benjamin and Judah, made up the house of Judah. So it is easy to see that it was through the 10 that the promise of God for the multiplicity of seed would be fulfilled.
Ephraim had bad habits of sin, though; always chasing after foreign gods and not honoring the sabbaths and feasts. God warned them they would be taken into captivity, even naming the number of years, if they did not repent. So they were swept away into the Gentile nations, completely losing their identity with God - as if they were never His people or as Hosea and Paul put it "loammi, but the prophet also said that they would return as "Sons of the Living God"........ Now who do you suppose that would be; living among the Gentile nations and prospering even though they were ignorant of their great heritage as the people of God's promise. God says that He never lost track of them:

Amos 9:9 "For surely I will command, And will sift the house of Israel among all nations, As grain is sifted in a sieve; Yet not the smallest grain shall fall to the ground.

So, there are only 12000 of those 144000 that would be of the tribe of Judah and another 12000 representing Benjamin. The other 10 tribes evidently are not lost to God because they are represented in the 144000.

Deut.28:64 YHVH will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth; and there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone, which you or your fathers have not known.

Hosea 5:3 I know Ephraim, and Israel is not hid from me: for now, O Ephraim, thou committest whoredom, and Israel is defiled.

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Jer 3:18 In those days the house of Judah will walk with the house of Israel, and they will come together from the land of the north to the land that I gave your fathers as an inheritance.

Here's a prophecy not yet fulfilled. Who would be the Philistines descendants today? And, of course, Edom is the descendants that have always opposed God - coming from Esau. Would the 144000 be those who have finally gotten themselves in line with God's will enough to fight with Him and stand with Him?

Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. 14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

I agree that the scripture states that the 144,000 are the 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Tavita said:

(Gen 22:18) "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

Click to expand...

None of these passages support that the 144,000 will not be of the tribes of Israel [literal]. As for the one you marked in red, this is referring to Jesus. Trough their seed, Jesus would be born and bless all the nations, it was a messianic prophecy that this passage eluded to. All these passages you quoted are concerning the tribes of Israel, not the Church. All this does is as I said, confuse scripture at every turn of the page.

Daywolf said:

None of these passages support that the 144,000 will not be of the tribes of Israel [literal]. As for the one you marked in red, this is referring to Jesus. Trough their seed, Jesus would be born and bless all the nations, it was a messianic prophecy that this passage eluded to. All these passages you quoted are concerning the tribes of Israel, not the Church. All this does is as I said, confuse scripture at every turn of the page.

Click to expand...

Agreed. Scripture clearly shows a literal fulfillment of these 144,000 from the tribes of Israel.

Daywolf said:

None of these passages support that the 144,000 will not be of the tribes of Israel [literal]. As for the one you marked in red, this is referring to Jesus. Trough their seed, Jesus would be born and bless all the nations, it was a messianic prophecy that this passage eluded to. All these passages you quoted are concerning the tribes of Israel, not the Church. All this does is as I said, confuse scripture at every turn of the page.

Click to expand...

Yes, the 144,000 are the literal tribes of Israel, and that's what I was also trying to show. The ten lost tribes have been dispersed into the world in fulfilment of the promise made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And I agree, through their seed Jesus would be born and bless the nations, but that does not mean the literal line of 'seed' from Abraham stopped flowing.

In Hebrew thought there is four main methods of interpretation. the P's h a t - the straightforward, literal meaning of the text, the Remez - allusions, allegory, spiritual hints, the Drash - moral, reading one's own thoughts into the text (popular during Jesus time), and Sod, the meaning and numerical value of Hebrew letters which hide inner mystical meanings.

So, in those words I made red, you are right in seeing that Jesus was the seed spoken of, that was the Remez interpretation. But there is also the literal meaning or, P's h a t meaning of seed.

When God first told Abraham he would have an heir, Abraham didn't want someone 'adopted', he wanted that 'seed' to come from his own loins... literal.


(Gen 15:4) And, behold, the word of Jehovah came unto him, saying, This man shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

(Gen 15:5) And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and number the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.


The promise to Abraham...

(Gen 17:4) As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be the father of a multitude of nations.

(Gen 17:5) Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for the father of a multitude of nations have I made thee.

(Gen 17:6) And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

(Gen 17:7) And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee.


The promise to Izaac....

(Gen 26:3) Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee. For unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father.

(Gen 26:4) And I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these lands. And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.


To Jacob...

(Gen 28:3) And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a company of peoples.

(Gen 28:4) And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee. That thou mayest inherit the land of thy sojournings, which God gave unto Abraham.


And Jacob's blessing upon Ephraim...

(Gen 48:19) And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: howbeit his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.


This does not mean that only those who are direct descendents with the blood line are Israel. Even those who joined themselves to Israel were to be considered 'one' with Israel.


(Isa 56:6) Also the foreigners that join themselves to Jehovah, to minister unto him, and to love the name of Jehovah, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and holdeth fast my covenant;

(Isa 56:7) even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt-offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.


Jesus is also called 'Israel', the olive tree. And as Paul points out in Ephesians...

(Eph 2:12) that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

(Eph 2:13) But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.

(Eph 2:14) For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,

(Eph 2:15) having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;


What two is he speaking of? Could it be the Jews (Judah) and the Christians, who make up the House of Israel? Reuniting them again 'in Christ'? It's only through Christ that the two houses can come together again in Him, as all Israel.


If the Jews make up the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, then can you say where the other ten tribes are located? The Jews now do not make up all the ten tribes so therefore can't be the total of the 144,000 in Revelation. Where is Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Naphtali, Asher, Reuben, Gad, Issachar, Zebulun and Joseph/Ephraim?

I can see nothing confusing about this whole subject, in fact it's made not only bible prophecy easier to understand, but gives a better overall understanding of the Bible.

Daywolf said:

None of these passages support that the 144,000 will not be of the tribes of Israel [literal]. As for the one you marked in red, this is referring to Jesus. Trough their seed, Jesus would be born and bless all the nations, it was a messianic prophecy that this passage eluded to. All these passages you quoted are concerning the tribes of Israel, not the Church. All this does is as I said, confuse scripture at every turn of the page.

Click to expand...

Your statement is just plain contradictory to the scripture. Jesus is the Messiah, as promised even to Adam, as the son of man that would crush the head of the serpent, but there is more to the covenant that God made with Abraham that Jesus would be born and become the "firstborn" of many brethren. There is more detail that you are alluding to, and it is detail that this thread is digging for - considering the 144000.

Ge 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

Ge 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Barraco said:

So, only 144,000 of the tribes of Israel (ten of which none of us will know) will only be saved? This doesn't sound very fair to say that only 144,000 of some million somewhat Israelites were determined to only be saved over 2 thousand years before they were even born. I've always taken God as a just and fair God. So why condemn the rest of them? You see, it fits your OT descriptions, but it doesn't fit God's character that was described within the pages of the OT itself. The 144,000 isn't a set number and the people saved aren't solely Israelites. There will be no coming antichrist world leader (he's already come since the 12th century) and there will be no pretrib raptrue, all this is supported in Scripture. If there is a persecution for the Church in the end, it will be because of the seven trumpets in which none of the elect will be harmed. This is shown in Rev. 11 in which the people get ****ed with the two witnesses because of all the plagues they endured during their prophecy. This is also the same time that the ten kings destroy Babylon (the Church of Rome) and make war against Christ at his coming. Do you see the bigger picture yet? The antichrist doesn't fit in that picture of the end time 'tribulation' that the Bible describes. Literally research what I'm saying, compare it to the Olivet Discourse and you will see that the whole rapture theory doesn't work out, because there is no seven year reign of the antichrist. Thus those who are sealed aren't literally Israelites because the Church will still be here. That means the tribes are denoting the different kind of Christians (just as there were offspring from Jacob who was called Israel BY GOD, and not by man), and the 12,000 from each tribe denotes the remnant in which will be sealed from within the Church for actually following God (read the letter to Laodicea in Ch. 3.) A true follower of God, according to Revelation 12:17 are those that keep the testimony of Jesus Christ and follow God's commandments. Thus the 144,000 are those that kept themselves pure from idolatry and false worship and followed God's commands and followed Christ whereever he went. These are the 144,000; the offspring of the Church of Jesus Christ, in which the Apostles were elected by Christ to lead.

Click to expand...

My position is that the 144,000 will be 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. They will be the witnesses during the tribulation period. They will not be the only ones saved. They will lead many to salvation through preaching the Gospel.

Barraco said:

right, but it says nothing about what their mission is. That is all speculation SOLEY on the rapture theory that was never observed before the 19th century. The 144,000 are not Israelites sealed just because they are Israelites. The mistake that many make in interpreting Revelation is that they resolve in their heads that the seven trumpets don't mean the immediate return of Jesus. The trumpets herald his return. That means that there is no 7 year triblation, there is no pretrib rapture, and there is no sealing of Israelites. The 144,000 emply the remnant of those that call on the name of Jesus, emplying that these are those that split from major Christian body because of the apostasy. Its in the same context. If you take the 144,000 out of the Church, you no longer make sense of Revelation 14. The Woman of Ch. 12 represents the first Church and the first covenant. This went into hiding during the times of the Gentiles in which her offspring (the Christians who follow God's commandments and keep the testimony of Jesus Christ) were persecuted. Then the false Church arose and the true Church went into hiding among the Gentiles. What do we get out of that???? The 144,000 of the tribes of Israel.

Click to expand...

What has the 144000 got to do with the pretrib rapture theory? I don't believe in pretrib but I believe that if God's word says that 144000 of the tribes are sealed, then that is exactly how many will be sealed. Can't God count? Why does God give us numbers if we just throw them off as not meaning what He says they mean? Numbers have great meaning in scripture. These 144000 are the 'elite' troops, their mission is to bring multitudes to Christ. It doesn't mean no-one else will be saved or sealed. And also... the last trumpet DOES herald the Day of the Lord.

Rafael said:

Ge 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

Ge 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Click to expand...

Right, through Abrahams seed will all the earth be blessed which Christ came from. Christ’s lineage is from Abraham, not from Nero or any other tribe or nation. Trough Abraham was created a great nation, his offspring, and through Abrahams seed, through his lineage the promise of the messiah would come and bless the entire world. This does not say that Abrahams seed would become the world, but that through him the promise of the Christ would come and HE would be a blessing for the world, from Abraham's seed.

Not only would the world be blessed through Abrahams seed by way of Christ, but Abraham would have many descendants. This is told to him during a time when he had no descendants and had a hard time believing it because his wife was old. But God promised that he would in fact be the father of a great nation and that Christ would come through his seed which will be a blessing to the entire world.

Now how would you say the blessing is just his descendants being intermingled with some of the people of this world? that is no blessing for the world for it still results in death for the world. No, he was specifically referring to Christ through his seed that would bless the whole world, not just a select few that happen to be intermingled with the blood of Abraham.