It was Gods will that Adam sinned.

woobadooba · Jun 7, 2006

karen72201 said:
If God knew it advance all the suffering and pain that would be caused by Adam and Eve and if He knew all of the billions of people that would burn and suffer in hell forever,but he did it anyway.......does this make God good or completely evil on the same level as Hilter or Stalin?

For some reason this doesn't make logical sense for an omniscience and omnipotent being.I think something is wrong with your concept of God: for this type of God by definition cannot and doesnot exist.

Or it could be that you have a false concept of what free-will is, as well as what hell means...

To understand what the Bible really says about hell, you can go here: http://amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=667

Reformationist · Jun 7, 2006

holdon said:
And your answer is: God put that sinful desire there?

Of course not. Why would you ask me such a thing? :scratch:

That's all nice "holy" talk. But what Scripture do you base this on?

Here are a couple that explicitly teach that:

Prov 16:4
The Lord has made all for Himself,
Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Rom 9:17
For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.

And why is such a view "incongruous". Is it more "congruous" to say that God planned sin and the Fall?

When speaking of an omniscient, sovereign God, yes.

And why can't God not know it would come to pass and yet not have willed it to come to pass?

Holdon, we're speaking about God here. We can't even view God's passivity in a way that implies that He just stood off to the side and watched it happen because God is sovereign. That means that if God chooses to remain passive, i.e., let things happen as they naturally would without His intercession, He has to make a choice to be passive. Therefore, as God is omnipotent, we know that He could stop anything from coming to pass. The fact that He knew the Fall would come to pass yet did not engineer creation such that it would not come to pass (and despite the consensus, sin is not the invariable result of free will), we can conclude that on some level, God was allowing the Fall to transpire. If He allowed it to come to pass, He had a reason for allowing it to come to pass. His reason for allowing it to come to pass shows, implicitly, that He wills that it comes to pass, if only in a passive role.

Oh, "Almighty" means God can plan the Fall and sin and evil?

I beginning to think you're not interested in discussion on this. My point in acknowledging the Almighty nature of God is that if I start off with certain perceptions about God, i.e., He is eternal, immutable, omnipotent, omniscient, and sovereign, then I must acknowledge that He both knew the Fall would come to pass and that He had the power and authority to stop it from happening. The fact that He did not stop it from happening shows me that His plan, which is unchanging, included within it the Fall.

And what has "I know that thou canst do everything, and that thou canst be hindered in no thought of thine." to do with it?

For my own benefit, I'll post it in the NKJV:

Job 42:2
I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.

This verse was cited to reflect the omnipotency of God. Therefore, if God is omniscient then He knew the Fall would come to pass. If He desired that it not happen, He could have stopped it, and nothing could have thwarted Him from stopping it. The fact that He chose to not stop it from coming to pass, shows that He did not purpose to stop it.

Let me get this: He decreed it to come to pass, based on the fact that it did come to pass???? So, what is "decreeing" needed for then?

Holdon, I am a finite creature. I was not there when God decreed the course of history. Therefore, when I see an event come to pass, like the Fall, it logically works backwards that if God, having both the power and authority to stop that event from coming to pass, had chosen to stop it, it never would have happened. Therefore, when I, a finite creature, acknowledge that the Fall did come to pass, I can reliably state that it is clear that God chose to not stop it from coming to pass. As I previously mentioned, there isn't anything that God isn't ultimately concerned with in the course of the manifestation of His plan. It's not like He looks at an event and says, "Well, that event isn't that pivitol so I'm not going to concern Myself with whether I should assure it has the desired result." No. God is sovereign over all of history. Not just the big events.

But it still a big "IF", whether God "decreed" the Fall, isn't it?

Maybe for you but, for in my opinion, not at all. The fact that it did happen is proof positive that God decreed that it should come to pass.

No evidence from God Himself for that: no Scripture.

Let me ask you something. Do you believe that man, as a whole, fell from grace?

And why did Adam deserve it, if he was innocent?

Adam didn't deserve the wrath of God, until he sinned. What's your point?

So, all that comes to pass is God's desire??

I can already tell where this is going to lead but, for the record, there is a difference between saying that God desires something to come to pass and saying that God delights in it. The death of His only begotten Son is the prime example of this. God sent His Son to be a propitiation so it is explicitly obvious that He desired the death of His Son. That does not mean He delighted in the death of His Son.

Don't you think it strange that all the bad stuff in the world would be ordained by God?

Oftentimes, yes. However, when I remind myself that God's ways are not my ways and that He will work all things to the good, whether I understand how it can be so or not, I am reminded that I am part of God's plan, not the center of God's plan.

God can surely make something good out of bad. But does He need bad to make something good? That's the fundamental question here.

Well, let's look at it systematically. Could God have created you with the ability to love those who wrong you without you ever having to actually experience being wronged? He's God. Surely He could have. However, it's clear that He did not do that. Clearly, God purposed to sanctify you through the things which you suffer. You and I, like our Lord, learn obedience through our sufferings (Heb 5:8).

And Joseph's story has nothing to do with that men had to commit sin in order to accomodate God's plan.

Once again, you argue against a point I never made. What I was saying about Joseph was that it was an example of the providential government of God, that though man freely wills to commit such evil machinations, those sins actually ushers in the plan and purpose of God. Joseph did not say, "You meant it for evil but God made something good out of your bad intentions." His brothers knew they had done wrong and were begging for mercy. Joseph didn't say, "Well, you should be sorry. Do you realize what I went through?" No. He said, "Do not be afraid, for am I in the place of God?" Joseph knew that the things he experienced, as bad as they were, did not give him the authority to condemn his brothers. "Why?!!" we would ask. It's because Joseph recognized that God had a purpose in everything he experienced. It wasn't that these bad things happened and God manipulated events to bring bout a favorable and glorifying outcome. No. God had a purpose from the beginning, and every event, including all of the terrible things that Joseph experienced, were part of that plan. As Jospeh so eloquently and faithfully points out, the same events that those who sin against us mean for evil, God means for good. When someone seeks vengence against us or to harm us by sinning against us, God is teaching us that we are to rely on Him in times of struggle and trial. IOW, we are conformed to the image of Christ by the sins of others.

So, the answer is: you don't know and you know it was not God. That's certainly fair. Especially, since it exonerated God.

Oh good.

Now, the question is of course that if God decreed the Fall, and whatsoever comes to pass, how it come that the sinful desire was NOT "assured" by Him.

I don't know how a creature without sin came to desire something God had forbidden.

Yes. The only conclusion is that: "it must happen". But that is not the same as: "God willed it to happen".

I believe the reason you take issue with that is that you read "willed" and interpret it as "caused." They're not synonymous. It can certainly be God's will that something come to pass and that event come to pass because man chose to do something. As I mentioned earlier, the death of Christ is the most explicit biblical example of this precept.

God's providential government includes the sinful actions of His creatures. So, that means God willed Adam to sin. And that is against James 1:13 for instance. And it goes against the Nature of God.

It does not violate Scripture because God "willing" something to come to pass isn't indicative, or implactive, that He caused it to come to pass.

Reformationist · Jun 7, 2006

genez said:
They did not tempt themselves. A sin nature would have caused that. Their temptation came from the outside. From an evil creature.

I agree. However, we cannot blame the temptation for the sin, for being tempted does not necessitate sinning:

Heb 4:15
For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

In a perverted, noble sort of way. They desired a good thing. They wanted so much to be like God. In hopes of becoming like God, they pushed aside the command from God.

After all... They really liked what they saw in the LORD! They wanted to be like him! So, under the influence of evil, they ate to become like God.

I have heard this explanation before and, while plausible, it doesn't make the punishment fit the crime. Think about it, God casts man from His presence and condemns him because he wanted to emulate his Master? Not saying you're wrong but I don't see how it jibes with the nature of God.

That is why God was free to forgive them.

Um...do you have any biblical support for this? I ask because you're advocating the idea that God was "free to forgive them" because a noble desire predicated their sin when, in actuality, the Bible lists the atoning work of the coming Messiah as the basis for pre-Incarnate man's forgiveness.

God bless

Reformationist · Jun 7, 2006

karen72201 said:
If God knew it advance all the suffering and pain that would be caused by Adam and Eve and if He knew all of the billions of people that would burn and suffer in hell forever,but he did it anyway.......does this make God good or completely evil on the same level as Hilter or Stalin?

Do you think that God knew in advance that all the suffering, pain, condemnation, and stuggle would come to pass before He created Adam and Eve?

For some reason this doesn't make logical sense for an omniscience and omnipotent being.I think something is wrong with your concept of God: for this type of God by definition cannot and doesnot exist.

Not sure who this is addressed to but could you clarify what you mean?

Thanks,
God bless

GenemZ · Jun 7, 2006

karen72201 said:
If God knew it advance all the suffering and pain that would be caused by Adam and Eve and if He knew all of the billions of people that would burn and suffer in hell forever,but he did it anyway.......does this make God good or completely evil on the same level as Hilter or Stalin?

Isaiah 55:8 niv
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD."

God sees the Eternal world in mind. We tend to only look at the temporal. If God did not weed out evil now? With all its suffering involved in exposing the intents of each soul? If God left those who are evil alone to be content? In Eternity it would be infinitly worse, and never ending torment for those who love God.

Those who end up in Hell would have made it Hell for all who love God, forever...

If not placed in Hell, and shown the reason they must be there. That being, Hell is what they would have made our lives to be if allowed promotion into Eternity. That is why their very punishment will be the reason they are there. For they would have made life Hell for everyone who loves God if they were allowed to enter into the Eternal life God has planned for all creation.

The Hell of Hell, is showing them the very reason they are there. The message in Hell will be..."You say its wrong to be placed in the torments of Hell? Well, this is what you would have made life for all who love me if allowed the power of Eternal life! Your very suffering is the very reason I must isolate you from Life. Now you see why you must be isolated from those who love God"

God created free will so true love can be expressed between God and creation. The price paid for creating free will is to have some go against God's will. The very fact that Hell exists proves God was sucessful in creating a life, with a mind of its own. Impossible for any inventor to accomplish. For our limited abilities must always pre-program function in what man creates and invents.

For some reason this doesn't make logical sense for an omniscience and omnipotent being.I think something is wrong with your concept of God: for this type of God by definition cannot and doesnot exist.

It only makes no sense if God's objectives were the same as your own. God personally created every atom and molecule in existence. Right? From one end of the Universe to the other! His mind is beyond our finding out. If we learn to trust God? Then we know all things are for a good reason in the end.

Romans 8:28 (New International Version)
"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."

In Christ, GeneZ

Reformationist · Jun 7, 2006

genez said:
The price paid for creating free will is to have some go against God's will. The very fact that Hell exists proves God was sucessful in creating a life, with a mind of its own.

Gene, it seems as if you're saying that rebellion is the invariable result of free will and that the existance of hell indicates that having a mind of one's own is the reason people go to hell, as if having a your own mind cannot result in obedience.

Can you clarify?

Thanks,
God bless

holdon · Jun 7, 2006

Reformationist said:
Here are a couple that explicitly teach that:

Prov 16:4
The Lord has made all for Himself,
Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Rom 9:17
For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.

I fail to see how those verses answer to your contention that "but the sins of man surely usher in God's decrees, in which God surely delights."

Holdon, we're speaking about God here. We can't even view God's passivity in a way that implies that He just stood off to the side and watched it happen because God is sovereign. That means that if God chooses to remain passive, i.e., let things happen as they naturally would without His intercession, He has to make a choice to be passive. Therefore, as God is omnipotent, we know that He could stop anything from coming to pass. The fact that He knew the Fall would come to pass yet did not engineer creation such that it would not come to pass (and despite the consensus, sin is not the invariable result of free will), we can conclude that on some level, God was allowing the Fall to transpire. If He allowed it to come to pass, He had a reason for allowing it to come to pass. His reason for allowing it to come to pass shows, implicitly, that He wills that it comes to pass, if only in a passive role.

Well, if it is passive then He didn't will it, because "willing" is active. And re. His reasons for staying passive, are indeed not revealed to us.

Holdon, I am a finite creature. I was not there when God decreed the course of history. Therefore, when I see an event come to pass, like the Fall, it logically works backwards that if God, having both the power and authority to stop that event from coming to pass, had chosen to stop it, it never would have happened. Therefore, when I, a finite creature, acknowledge that the Fall did come to pass, I can reliably state that it is clear that God chose to not stop it from coming to pass. As I previously mentioned, there isn't anything that God isn't ultimately concerned with in the course of the manifestation of His plan. It's not like He looks at an event and says, "Well, that event isn't that pivitol so I'm not going to concern Myself with whether I should assure it has the desired result." No. God is sovereign over all of history. Not just the big events.

Well, He is certainly sovereign and knows everything and can do everything. But it's a fallacy to say that He does everything. To say that the things that come to pass are caused by Him, is nothing more than worshipping Fate, and that's not Him.

Maybe for you but, for in my opinion, not at all. The fact that it did happen is proof positive that God decreed that it should come to pass.

Your whole supposition is without foundation. We have no revelation whatsoever about such a decree.

Let me ask you something. Do you believe that man, as a whole, fell from grace?

Yes. And?

Adam didn't deserve the wrath of God, until he sinned. What's your point?

Because you said: "Whatsoever "ill fate" befalls us, we deserve by virtue of our sinfulness." Therefore I asked: why did Adam deserve it then?

Reformationist · Jun 7, 2006

holdon said:
I fail to see how those verses answer to your contention that "but the sins of man surely usher in God's decrees, in which God surely delights."

Really? Do you really fail to see how they do or are you being obstinate for the sake of maintaining your disagreement? Romans 9:17 explicitly states that God raised up a sinful ruler and placed him in an unparalleled position of human authority so that He could show His power in the face of the sinfulness of mankind. God purposed to manifest His power and purpose in the obstinate behavior of the Pharoah to persecute God's people. You're a smart guy holdon. Think about it. You'll get it.

Well, if it is passive then He didn't will it, because "willing" is active.

Pray tell, where is the source for this definition of willing? Consider these words of Dr. Francis Turretin:

The will of decree may be that which determines the events of things, but the will of precept is that which prescribes man his duty. Therefore God can (without contradiction) will as to precept what he does not will as to decree inasmuch as he wills to prescribe something to man, but does not will to effect it (as he willed Pharaoh to release the people, but yet nilled their actual release.)

In actuality, the "will of God" is spoken of in three different ways in the Gospel, His decretive, or sovereign, will (the will by which God brings His plan to fruition), His perceptive will (His Law), and His will of disposition (that which God finds pleasing).

Well, He is certainly sovereign and knows everything and can do everything. But it's a fallacy to say that He does everything.

Good for you. It's not a claim that I made so I fail to see why you argue against its validity to me. What I'm saying is that there are no events that come to pass of which God is unaware. So, being that God is aware of everything that comes to pass, and considering that He has both the power and authority to stop it if He desires that it not come to pass, the only conclusion we can rationally make if the event does come to pass is that God chooses to not stop it from coming to pass.

To say that the things that come to pass are caused by Him, is nothing more than worshipping Fate, and that's not Him.

I never made that claim so, again, your point is moot.

Yes. And?

Do you believe that God foresaw the Fall happening before it happened?

Because you said: "Whatsoever "ill fate" befalls us, we deserve by virtue of our sinfulness." Therefore I asked: why did Adam deserve it then?

What ill fate befell Adam which you contend that He didn't deserve? :scratch:

Reformationist · Jun 7, 2006

Another quote from Turretin that speaks to the various "wills" of God:

Hence have arisen various distinctions of the will of God. The first and principal distinction is that of the decretive and preceptive will. The former means that which God wills to do, or permits himself; the latter what he wills that we should dothe former cannot be resisted and is always fulfilled (Rom. 9:19)the latter is often violated by men (Mt. 23:27)

God bless

GenemZ · Jun 7, 2006

Reformationist said:
Gene, it seems as if you're saying that rebellion is the invariable result of free will and that the existance of hell indicates that having a mind of one's own is the reason people go to hell, as if having a your own mind cannot result in obedience.

Can you clarify?

Thanks,
God bless

Rebellion, and choosing to disobey, are not the same things.

We all disobey at some time in our life.

Does that mean we rebel?

Rebellion is when one not only disobeys the one in authority. Its when one disobeys, and desires to take over the authority.

Satan and his angels rebelled against God.

Adam, disobeyed.

Adam repented.

Satan and his angels, refused.

Free will makes it inevitable that at some point time we all (still with fallen natures in potential) will disobey a command. (all, but Christ, who always obeyed). For we must learn with our fallen state remaining with us, obedience.

Romans 11:32 niv
"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

Obedience is something we must learn! God baptizes our souls into fallen flesh. We are bound over to disobedience in that manner. We are also ignorant of truth at birth..... All men are bound over to disobedience by God. The answer to this dilemma is God's MERCY.

Adam, who was sinless, disobeyed out of disbelief. He called God a liar by listening to a lie. .

Adam was ignorant of all he needed to know of what God is. Jesus, in contrast, learned through his own obedience all what was needed to counter all lies against the truth.

If Adam had done God's will? He could have cried out for help to God when tempted, but refused.

Ignorance was Adam's downfall. Willful ignorance by refusing to cry out to the LORD for help. And, from then on knowledge had become the key to overcoming evil, and entering into the favor of God. Knowledge of good and evil was the new system given to Adam by God.

Jesus suffered in his obedience. It was nothing he did like a duck takes to water. He was assigned a plan and knew what he was to do. Knowing God, he was able to trust God in all he did. We fail to trust God when we fail to see God. Ignorance.

Hebrews 5:7-9 (New International Version)
"During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him."

The 'perfection' spoken of here does not speak of sinless perfection (which Christ already possessed from birth). It speaks of having his volition tested in every conceivable way, as to overcome anything that may temp mankind.

Hebrews 4:15 niv
"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin."

Jesus showed us how Adam should have learned obedience, but failed. If Adam learned obedience? Being in an inferior position to Satan? Then there would have been no fall of man, and God's judgement over the fallen angels would have been proven to the ignorant elect angels, to be just and fair.

But, it did not happen that way. So, alternative, Plan B was set into motion. One that God always knew would be the one to happen. So, he provided for every need before the world began.

God is now vindicating, and has vindicated, his judgement of those who reject Him, with the Plan B, alternative plan. And now, with a different tact from Plan A. Yet, Jesus stuck to what was in Plan A, and showed us what it was that Adam failed to do to please God.

Once Jesus overcame all that we can face? He then proved that Adam did not face the inevitable. That he had to fall! That God gave Adam a fair chance not to fall. It could have been done. Jesus just showed how. Obedience and growing in knowledge out of love for God.

Just the same, with reality being what it became to be. Jesus in his humanity perfected the salvation system we are now to follow after regeneration.

So, now, when ever we are tempted? Jesus has the way to win. And, he learned from the Father the way to overcome as he suffered in obedience to the Father's will.

There is no temptation we can possibly face that Jesus in God the Holy Spirit's power did not perfect a way to overcome! He perfected our salvation from evil in the world through the obedience he suffered.

In Christ now are treasured all ways to overcome any evil we may face in life. And, all ways to live in joy and happiness he wants to give those who please him. Its our ignorance of God's Word that keeps us from knowing how to win.

Tradition and ritual? Its dead works! No knowledge is gained by performing ritual, or following blindly traditions. Its like putting currency in a Divine vending machine, and expecting blessing to come down the shute.

Blessing can not be earned by works. Though, certain works will be manifested automatically, as our inner life receives blessing of Divine guidance for our souls.

Ephesians 2:10 (New International Version)
"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

God's mercy allows us to fail as we are growing and learning to become transformed by grace and knowledge into the thinking and character of Christ. Mercy reigns over judgement, if we are following after God's heart. Mercy gives us love and encouragement as we fall down flat on our face while we are learning to walk by faith.

2 Peter 3:18 niv
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen."

I do not know if that answers your question to your satisfation. But, that was what was placed on my heart after reading your question.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

andy153 · Jun 8, 2006

GeorgeE said:
I am one of these believers that believe God is God. He is sovereign which I know already that bothers some people. So I brought Webster Dictionary in the picture.

Main Entry: 1sov·er·eign

Variant(s): also sov·ran

/'sä-v(&-)r&n, -v&rn also 's&-/
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English soverain, from Old French, from soverain, adjective
1 a : one possessing or held to possess sovereignty b : one that exercises supreme authority within a limited sphere c: an acknowledged leader : ARBITER
2 : any of various gold coins of the United Kingdom

I dont think God has spiritually speaking cares about the gold coins in the United Kingdom, nor do I believe His sovereignty is within a limit sphere.

I do believe He has a plan for all mankind and even had a savior before He had a sinner, for the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth.

Where art thou?
Who told thee that thou wast naked?
Hast thou eaten of the tree?
What is this that thou hast done?

It is clear from the questions that the Lord God asked that he never planned the fall or indeed played any part in it.

With love and respect, Andy153

ohgin · Jun 8, 2006

relspace said:
I not only believe in free will, but I believe that free will was the whole point in creating this universe of time, space and its mathematical physical laws. There is no doubt that God can do and know whatever he wills. The physical laws of this universe do not restrain Him, but He does restrict himself to acting within these laws. I firmly believe that for someone who is all-powerful, knowlege and control are indistinguishable. So for free will to exist God must restrain both His power and His knowledge. Furthermore with God's power and knowledge, His ability to subtly manipulate events would be just as irresistable as outright control. I cannot imagine that He would fail to infuence us to do exactly what He wished us to do everytime He had any interaction with the world. Since I beleive that God interaction with the world is quite intimate and all the time, I must believe that He chooses not to know what we will do as part of His purpose to preserve our free will.

To answer your question more specifically would divert this discussion quite badly since the name "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" and "Tree of Life" shout SYMBOLISM at me. But to put it simply, I think that everything in the Garden of Eden had a role in human life that had nothing to do with the fall. The possibility for evil derived directly from the existence of free will. God being all knowing does not mean that He cannot choose not to know things. We often do believe in giving people some degree of privacy. I believe that God gives us privacy in regards to what our future choices will be, in order to preserve our free will.

So I do not think that God is cruel. I do not think that God seeks His own glory. What need could he have for such a thing? God may want man to glorify Him but only for man's own sake. Therefore I cannot believe that God created the universe or man in order to bring glory to himself. He may point to the universe which He has created in order to inspire man to glorify God. But this is because God is the source of eternal life and by glorifying God we orient ourselves away from sin and death towards life.

Free will is a result of God choice not to control absolutely everything. But no I do not think that what God wants to acheive is based on what man decides to do, not in the long run. But I do think that part of what He wants for us individually depends on our choices. Just as Solomon wished for wisdom as a child and God responded to this wish by leading Solomon into great wisdom, I think God responds to our choices as part of His individual plan for us.

No I am quite aware of the elements of predestination in the Bible and I do not deny that God can and does predestine certain events according to His will, but I do not think that God predestines everything. I do not believe that Romans means that all are saved or damned according to His will alone and that our free will is irrelevant. When it says that God is like a potter having the right over His clay to make of it what He wills, I think its purpose is only to endorse the proper fear of God, that salvation and judgement are God's perogative alone and that we cannot think to manipulate God in any manner whatsoever. I think it also means that we cannot usurp God's postion to stand in judgement ourselves as in Rom 10:6-7 "Do not say in your heart 'who will ascend into heaven?' (that is to bring Christ down from above) or, 'who will descend into the abyss?' (for that is to bring Christ up from the dead)."

Well I cannot help trying to make sense of it all.

I find the idea of eternal damnation as a punishment completely nonsensical, for in my mind the purpose of punishment is behavior modification, but do not have any problem with the idea of eternal damnation as an unavoidable consequence of the nature of spiritual existence. God is the source of eternal life and it is an unavoidable fact that by cutting yourself off from this source you condemn yourself to an eternal existence without any meaning or joy. On that basis I also have no difficulty with the fate of the good man who rejects God. I do not think these difference between good and bad among people amounts to anything because without the intervention of God we are all under the law of sin, just as a thrown ball is under the law of gravity. So whether it is thrown up or down a ball eventually ends up in the same place: on the ground. I believe that Jesus died on the cross for all men. And even if it takes the intervention of God to deliver us up from the web of our self deceptions for one moment of truth where our free will can make a choice, God still requires that choice, before he will intervene further our life to do what it takes to bring us home. Asking God into our life is not any kind of free pass, it just means that we have given the doctor permission to operate, and there is no anesthetic for the kind of surgery He must perform.

I can't say that I agree with this but it is an interesting theory. But do you realize what this theory is really saying? I does away with any need for the idea of original sin. For if it was necessary for Adam, who was created without sin, to experience sin before he could be saved, then naturally the same must hold true for every human being -- every child. Also, it seems to me, to make the role of Jesus a bit ambiguous, for was not Jesus also created without sin? Did Jesus need to experience sin and if not then was he not so different from Adam as to be nothing like a man at all? I thought that Jesus had to be fully man as well as fully God in order for his atonement and resurrection to be effective.

So you are willing to believe in a god like the Zeus or the golden calf? Are you saying that you are willing to believe in a God that is evil? As Christians we believe in a God that is infinite, all-powerful, all-knowing, creator of all things, and perfect in goodness and love. But this means that by our description of what God has done we are also describing what is good rather than evil. So I think it is only natural for me to say that I cannot attribute what seems self-evidently evil actions to God. I also think that it is a perfectly adequate Christian response to simply say that this is beyond our understanding, for we cannot imagine that we have all the facts. But I think this means that we would have to admit that there must be more to the story and I am not sure you can so confidently rule out the possibility that my understanding of what is going on is at least partially correct.

As Christians we know that (at least after the fall) mankind is incapable of connections with God. I think that man is so full of lies, wishful thinking, delusions, and manipulative behavior that any concept of God has no relationship or connection with the real thing and that therefore our attempts appease or find favor with God are meaningless. It is only through understanding who Jesus is and what He did that we can cut through the deceptions to accept His gift of a relationship with a God that is the real thing. Perhaps through that relationship, God may conform our concept or understanding to the reality, and perhaps these concepts and understandings have so little importance that He does not. Perhaps He tells each of us only what we need to know.

You are free to doubt my relationship with God and feel concern. But I feel that it is more proper to express that concern in prayer to God rather than in condescension to others. I do not mean that you should fear to offend others, but only that you should fear God. For I feel the that the proper fear of God must acknowledge that salvation and judgement is God's alone, making the judgment of others quite impossible. But of course the sincere effort to bring others to into the knowledge of God cannot be criticized. And I will never hesitate to welcome any prayer of invitation to God, for I put no faith in anything of myself to say, that "I am saved and have no need of God's grace." The only assurance I have is of the power and goodness of God and that is the only assurance of which I feel any need.

Wow such a long post. I really find it hard to reply but since I used to be a Physics student like what you are now, I will try my best. And yes your post can be a little mind wrenching like my post. And really your idea is a little refreshing ,I think no one has discussed something like you have discuss now.

Well first of all, why would God limit Himself to being all-knowing and at the same time give us free will. There is another possibility that could occur and that is that He could just be a bystander that stands by and met out the necessary punishments only after the events has happened. But I think that has been discussed before and I don't really want to discuss again. But my question to you is this: Why would God want to limit His power just to cater us. Are we higher then God that God must do all these things? God does not have to limit His power just to suit us you know. Of course the next thing that you say is that He did it out of love. But how in what way does it benefits us if He limit his power. He could have just be a bystander. What does not knowing something has got to do with events. God could have chosen not to do something even though He knows that it is going to happen.

Ok, my question to you is this again. Do you really believe that God choose not to know the choices that Adam will make??Well we know that God is all-knowing and by your argument God chooses not to know something. Then why can't God also make the same choice in terms of sin. Why must He punishes us for sin. Can't He just pretend not to see it???We should acknowledge that God is all-knowing and we really should not add factors to make God less then that.

Well I dun really know the real reason as to why God created man and the universe. And I guess not many of us know the answer but I guess He wants to shower his love on us since we have will of some sort(Not Free Will) and that we are the perfect instrucment to show love.

I guess if you think carefully, you will realize is that in most cases there is no free will. Our decision is based on our desires. Why do we sin?? Because it make us feel good. Why do we obey God? Because we come to the realization through the holy spirit that our fleshly desire is nothing compared to the eternal blessing from God. If our desire to sin is more then our desire to obey God, then most likely we will sin. Vice Versa. That is why it is always more important to have a firm knowledge of God's word so that when the temptation of sin comes, we will still continue to stand on the truth. I also think that the holy spirit changes our desires slowly through God's word by giving us revelation. You see, it is impossible to understand what God is telling us if we look at the word physically but we must also understand the spiritual meaning of the word and that can only come from the holy spirit

Well I guess that it is your perogative to think in this manner too. But I think it is more then just fearing Him. It is clear that Romans also say that God chose Jacob over Esau before they were born and that is to fulfil to purpose of election or predestination. Obviously, it is not what Jacob or Esau has done that God chose Jacob but it is to fulfil the purpose of election. What do you think about this. What do you also think of the verse when God says I will have mercy on whom I have mercy on and I will also have compassion on whom I have compassion on. God did not say I will have mercy on those who do good. God did not say that I will have mercy on all "christians".

You dun believe there is an eternal damnation?? Then where will Satan and His fallen Angel end up in heaven eventually??? What does the verse in revelation says when it mentioned that Satan will be tormented forever and ever. It also mentioned that those who follow Satan and that those whose name is not in the book of life will be thrown into the same lake of fire as Satan. I know that you are kind in heart and you think that the whole world will eventually accept Jesus.Dun u realize that there is a really great difference between the world and christianity???It is like two forces fighting against each other from opposite ends.It is mutually exclusive. Do you really think that those who belong to the world will have a change of entering heaven??? No.The bible has already stated very clearly that those who do not enter heaven will be tormented forever and ever. Yes,I agree with you.Hell is not punishment.Hell is damnation.

No I am not willing to believe in the gods of man creation but I am willing to believe in the One True God even if not all of his qualities fits into my description because I a mere Human Being cannot understand everything about God.Are you very certain that your description of God is totally correct??? God is love but He is definately not love to those who are going to spent eternity in hell. I shall repeat again, even though God is not RESPONSIBLE for the evil that we have commited, but I think he willed it since I believe that everything is under his control. Ok, mayby there is part of what you say that is true but I am not very convinced yet.

Well how are we going to come to repentence if we do not sin???? Only through sin can there be repentence. Jesus will born without sin because He came in this world through the seed of a woman called Mary. But we came into this world through the seed of man. Mary was a virgin at the time when Jesus was born. Of course God was fully man. In the bible ,it was clear since He exhibited all the physical qualities of man. But spiritually, He is fully God and the only way that it is possible is that He was without sin.

Well I hope that I have answered your question

ohgin · Jun 8, 2006

relspace said:
Man's spiritual nature relates to the choices which he makes. These choices determine a man's habitual behavior and define what kind of person he is. Sin is the making of choices and the habits which they initiate which are destructive of the process of life, destroying a man's own potential for greater life. Without the input of God, the pressures of this world make it inevitable that we will make such choices. Each bad choice create habits that by destroying the life process within inevitably leads to more and more such choices and habits. It is like a degenerative disease, which not only progressively destroys our own life but which by the examples of behavior and destructive effects contributes to the negative pressure of this world passing sin from one generation to another. Like the law of gravity, the relentless acceleration of sin means that the farther we fall the faster we fall, and no matter whether we are going up or down at moment, it is inevitable that (without the intervention of God) we will all end up in same place.

No. These sinful habits include a great deal of habitual lies and self-deception. All ideas of God are self-serving delusions of wishful thinking and our habitual attemps to manipulate God are meaningless. Only an act of God can remedy this situation, and the most important was God's incarnation in Jesus, His atonement on the cross and resurrection. But the utter depravity of man and the necessity of God's divine intervention does not change the fact of our free will, or the fact that God requires that we exercise that free will to choose to accept His gift, when by His intervention He makes this possible.

I agree, perfection can only be found in God. Even without sin, man is in a perpetual state of incompleteness or imperfection, for we are made for a relationship with God as our shepherd, parent and teacher for all eternity. But all this being repulsive to God is nonsense. That is a human feeling only. God loves us. But he did not give us life and free will only to take it away. Therefore, we cannot escape the responsibility of living life ourselves and making our own choices, so at the very miniminum we must choose life when we are given the opportunity. Adam chose Lucifer and death, and the habits of sin and death which this choice brought have ruled mankind since that day. But in the atonement and resurrection of Jesus a way was found in which God can give us the opportunity to choose life once again.

Well if man's spiritual nature is based on the choices that he makes then you should not use nature to describe anymore but we should use someother word. But the bible did clearly say that death(sin) came through Adam and Life came thorgh the second Adam which is christ Jesus. I think that just because we are christians does not mean that we have a better quality of life because even if we are obedient, we still have to experience certain trails because God is using those trails to mould us into something perfect. It is possible for those that are not following God to have a better life then those who are because God wants us to see clearly that it is not life in this world that we should seek after but the life after this world that is more precious. It is possible for a non christians to have a better standard of life then christians depending on the environment, but dun forget without suffering there will not be hope. God wants us to see something that is beyond this world.

I think the bible does states clearly in Romans that all our actions before we know christ are an abomination. Even the good deads that we do are just filthy rags. I am not saying that we are robots. All I am saying is that God has a higher will then us. What God wants to accomplish in us He will. Because we have a will, we have a responsibility to be obedient to God and choose life over death.

Reformationist · Jun 8, 2006

genez said:
Rebellion, and choosing to disobey, are not the same things.

We all disobey at some time in our life.

Does that mean we rebel?

Rebellion is when one not only disobeys the one in authority. Its when one disobeys, and desires to take over the authority.

Satan and his angels rebelled against God.

Adam, disobeyed.

Adam repented.

Satan and his angels, refused.

I'm not sure where you got this definition, nor does it sound very defensible. Every time we sin against God we subordinate the will of God to our own will which is an act of rebellion. Repenting for our rebellion against the law of God doesn't make it not rebellion. It simply makes it rebellion for which we've sought reconciliation.

Free will makes it inevitable that at some point time we all (with fallen natures) will disobey a command.

It seems as if you equate "having the ability to disobey God's commands" with "free will." If that is the case then you are sadly mistaken. "The ability to disobey God's commands" does not indicate a will that is free. It simply acknowledges that man is a volitional creature. Once again you, like many others, seem to errantly equate an ability to sin with a proclivity to sin.

Obedience is something we must learn!

That is because fallen man is born with a will that is not free but, rather, enslaved to sin. Sin became a constituent part of our nature in the Fall and though God redeems us, He does not remove from our being all vestige of sin. Therefore, we encounter the struggle of the regenerate soul against the sinful flesh. We learn obedience through our struggles. The idea that free will ultimately necessitates a disobedient response is not supported anywhere in Scripture. What necessitates a disobedient response is a heart that is aligned against God in rebellion. This is the state into which all people, excepting Jesus, are born.

Adam, who was sinless, disobeyed out of disbelief. He called God a liar by listening to a lie.

Sounds like rebellion to me....

Ignorance was Adam's downfall. Willful ignorance by refusing to cry out to the LORD for help. And, from then on knowledge had become the key to overcoming evil, and entering into the favor of God. Knowledge of good and evil was the new system given to Adam by God.

This, too, is completely unbiblical. Adam may not have had a personal awareness of sin but he was certainly aware that he was required to obey his Creator. To suggest otherwise is to truly implicate God in exercising His wrath against one who knew no better.

Once Jesus overcame all that we can face? He then proved that Adam did not face the inevitable. That he had to fall! That God gave Adam a fair chance not to fall. It could have been done. Jesus just showed how. Obedience and growing in knowledge out of love for God.

Okay. I am not aware that anyone was presuming that Adam didn't have the ability to remain obedient.

Jesus in his humanity perfected the salvation system we are now to follow after regeneration.

And that "salvation system" is...?

God's mercy allows us to fail as we are growing and learning to become transformed by grace and knowledge into the thinking and character of Christ.

No. God's mercy is the reason we are forgiven as we fail during the process of our sanctification. Nothing about God ever "allows" us to sin.

Mercy reigns over judgement, if we are following after God's heart.

This, too, is an inaccurate way of viewing the dispensation of God's grace. Mercy doesn't overcome judgement. Judgement against the sins of God's elect was executed. It just wasn't executed against the elect. God's wrath against the iniquity of the elect was exercised against Jesus, in the atonement. It is the value and perfection of His sacrifice that makes it fitting for God to be merciful to those for whom Christ died.

I do not know if that answers your question to your satisfation. But, that was what was placed on my heart after reading your question.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

Well, I truly appreciate the time and effort you put into the post but, much of it seemed to be more pastoral in nature than actually addressing what seemed, to me, to be a rather simple question.

My question:

"Is rebellion is the invariable result of free will?"

The answer:

"No. Rebellion is the invariable result of a fallen, unregenerate nature."

God bless

GenemZ · Jun 8, 2006

Reformationist said:
I'm not sure where you got this definition, nor does it sound very defensible. Every time we sin against God we subordinate the will of God to our own will which is an act of rebellion.

We sin at times unawares we are sinning. Rebellion is knowing when one is being disobedient. Sins of ignorance are not rebellion, any more than going over the speed limit having missed the sign that said the speed limit had just changed.

Repenting for our rebellion against the law of God doesn't make it not rebellion. It simply makes it rebellion for which we've sought reconciliation.

True. But, with my revised answer that preceded this question, included. Not all sin is rebellion. Not all sin is disobedience when one is ignorant of a command. If we are ignorant of something being sin, and we do it? Its still sin. But, its not rebellion. Rebellion requires cognizance of the fact one was commanded not to do something. There were sacrifices for sins of ignorance included in the Law. Not all sin is rebellion, nor an act of disobedience. Its doing something that God does not want done. But? Being ignorant of this? Its still sin. Yet, not rebellion.

It seems as if you equate "having the ability to disobey God's commands" with "free will." If that is the case then you are sadly mistaken. "The ability to disobey God's commands" does not indicate a will that is free. It simply acknowledges that man is a volitional creature. Once again you, like many others, seem to errantly equate an ability to sin with a proclivity to sin.

Not that simple. We are born with sin natures.

Romans 5:12 niv
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned."

We have a proclivity to sin by default when we are in the flesh. Sin is the cause of spiritual death we are all born with. Hence, we need to be born again spiritually. For we are born with a sin nature as a result of the fall. It is inevitable that we as fallen creatures will eventually sin when the opportunity rises.

God gave his commands in the Law because he wanted to expose man's sinfulness, so man could begin to see and define sin, and seek the need for salvation. The Law was God's way of defining man's condition so he could see a need for a Savior.

Romans 3:20 niv
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."

That is because fallen man is born with a will that is not free but, rather, enslaved to sin.

The sin nature resides in the FLESH. Our will resides in the soul. The soul is not free to do what it wills because the flesh with its sin nature dominates over the soul.

Romans 7:18 niv
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

The soul is ensalved to this flesh. That is why the will (which resides in the soul) is not free to do good. In God's salvation plan it is His grace that controls the flesh so that the soul can be made free to choose with free will to do what it desires to do.

Romans 8:6 niv
The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace."

Sin became a constituent part of our nature in the Fall and though God redeems us, He does not remove from our being all vestige of sin.

That is why Jesus said, "the truth will make you free." Our experiential sanctification is a spiritual battle for the freedom of our soul. The more truth we possess in our spirit, the more access the Holy Spirit has to controlling our flesh and freeing our soul. The more our flesh is controlled in our lifetime, the more access we have to experiencing free will in our soul for given situations.

Its when believers resort to rejecting truth and follow after human viewpoint (opinion based on human experience) or false doctrine, that we deny the Holy Spirit access to control our flesh and free our soul to be spiritual in Christ. Then we sin.

We have the access to the experience of having free will, as long as we grow in sound doctrine... "The truth will make you free." But, having absolute free will can not take place until we are in a resurrection body which is free of the sin nature.

In the mean time, our sanctification is a race to finish mature and complete in Christ before we die.

Therefore, we encounter the struggle of the regenerate soul against the sinful flesh. We learn obedience through our struggles. The idea that free will ultimately necessitates a disobedient response is not supported anywhere in Scripture.

We can progressively secure more and more areas of freedom in our soul. Just like a nation may have pockets of crimminal activity in certain cities, but over all, the nation is law abiding. Such it is with the state of the believer. Our objective is to fight the good fight. To test and discern BS, and to cling to Truth! For its by means of the Truth that we become one with the Holy Spirit in our thinking!

Jesus Christ wants to make himself to be at home in us! That only comes by not rejecting the truth when it comes our way. He wants to feel at home in us. Relaxed with his feet on a foot stool, even though down the block in another house a husband and wife constantly fight and the kids cry over it.

In our soul he wants to make himself feel at home. He can only do so by 'cleaning house' with the TRUTH of God's Word we volunteer to invite in. It also means we deny access to garbage and junk that wants to become part of our living quarters in our soul.

Ephesians 3:17 (Amplified Bible)
"May Christ through your faith [actually] dwell (settle down, abide, make His permanent home) in your hearts! May you be rooted deep in love and founded securely on love."

Faith is what we believe! Faith comes by hearing the message!

Romans 10:17 niv
"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."

Faith is based upon Bible knowledge! The truth will make us free!

What necessitates a disobedient response is a heart that is aligned against God in rebellion. This is the state into which all people, excepting Jesus, are born.

Total depravity is what that is. We had no choice in the matter. Yet, God's grace is what enables the soul to see clear of the flesh as to make a choice for Christ. Without grace? No one would be saved. For? Without grace? All flesh is anatgonistic to the Spirit. Since we had no choice in being fallen? God gives the flesh no say when he draws our souls. Grace controls the flesh so the soul is made free to choose for the truth being presented to the soul.

Yet? The soul is not a slave to grace. The soul is only freed by grace from the effects of the sin nature dominating its freedom to choose.

If the soul is free of the sin nature's oppression during times of God's drawing? Then, sin which comes from the flesh, is not the reason for rejecting the truth!

Its no longer sin, then, when grace is given and the soul is freed from the flesh to make a decision for truth being presented

When grace is being given, and the soul rejects truth? It was not oppressed and ensalved by the sin nature when it decided to reject? Its no longer sin!

That is what is called "Evil."

Evil and sin are not the same thing. Jesus died for our sins. He did not die for evil. If he could die for evil all unbelievers would be saved. Evil is living in thinking that erects anti-truth to live by. Satan promotes evil, not so much sin. Satan would rather create a good world with little sin that replaces God's system. Evil competes with Divine good. That is why evil loves to promote and debate false doctrine.

False teaching competes for dominance over the truth.

That is why we "fight the good fight."

Grace and peace, GeneZ

Reformationist · Jun 8, 2006

genez said:
Not that simple. We are born with sin natures.

Romans 5:12 niv
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned."

We have a proclivity to sin by default. Sin is the cause of spiritual death we are all born with.

Okay. I completely agree.

Hence, we need to be born again spiritually. For we are born with a sin nature as a result of the fall. It is inevitable that we as fallen creatures will eventually sin when the opportunity rises.

I agree that it is man's natural inclination to sin. After all, I'm a reformed Christian. If you're familiar with the tenets of reformed doctrine you'll be well aware of where I stand on the condition of man's fallenness. Regardless, you didn't previously claim that our fallen nature makes it inevitable that we will eventually sin when the opportunity rises. You said, "Free will makes it inevitable that, at some point, all those with fallen natures will disobey a command." You see the difference? In your former post you attribute the inevitability of sin to the free will of man whereas, in the latter, you submit that it is our fallen, sinful nature that ensures that man will sin. Can you explain which, if either, you believe to be the truth?

The sin nature resides in the FLESH. Our will resides in the soul.

The will is nothing more than the mind choosing. And, the mind chooses based on the strongest desire or inclination at the moment of choice.

The soul is not free to do what it wills because the flesh with its sin nature dominates over the soul.

This is absolutely untrue. First off, the Bible speaks of God removing fallen man's "heart" of stone and replacing it with a "heart" of flesh (Ez 36:26). The word translated here as "heart" is not a reference to the muscle that pumps blood throughout our body. It is the Hebrew word leb, which means, "inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding." When God regenerates man from death in trespasses and sins to life in Christ, He does so by giving him a new nature, that is, changing his will from one that is inclined to sin to on that desires to obey God. The problem that regenerate man faces is that his regenerate nature still resides in fallen flesh. Secondly, in saying that the "soul is not free to do what it wills because it is dominated by the sinful flesh" is to espouse the falsehood that the soul of natural, unregenerate man desires to do the will of God but is incapable due to the sinfulness of his flesh. The truth of unregenerate man is that he is incapable of doing the will of God because sin has pervaded, and corrupted, every aspect of his being, from his flesh to his fallen desires.

The soul is ensalved to this flesh. That is why the will (which resides in the soul) is not free to do good.

Your citation of Romans 7:18 is compleetely inappropriate in this situation because Paul is a believer when he differentiates between the newness of his regenerate nature and the fallen weakness of his flesh.

Total depravity is what that is. We had no choice in the matter.

Well, you and I may have had no choice in the matter but a choice was certainly made on our behalf and the choice that was made was the exact same choice that we would have made.

Yet, God's grace is what enables the soul to see clear of the flesh as to make a choice for Christ. Without grace? No one would be saved. For? Without grace? All flesh is anatgonistic to the Spirit. Since we had no choice in being fallen? God gives the flesh no say when he draws our souls. Grace controls the flesh so the soul is made free to choose for the truth being presented to the soul.

What you describe sounds like nothing more than the unbiblical view of prevenient grace. Tell me Gene, if God universally controls the flesh, thereby enabling the souls of all people to "choose for the truth being presented in the Gospel," what is the determining factor in why some accept that truth and why some choose, as you call it, "evil?"

Grace and peace, GeneZ

Same to you. I look forward to your response.

God bless

Jedi · Jun 8, 2006

Reformationist said:
The will is nothing more than the mind choosing. And, the mind chooses based on the strongest desire or inclination at the moment of choice.

I really don’t see where you’re getting this stuff. If what you say is true, then people aren’t really people but mere programs that happen to follow whatever desire happens to be strongest. I’m sorry, but there’s more to people than that. No doubt there is some degree of psychological programming (e.g. programmed responses and the sort), but if we limit all human thought to that alone, we are no different than the computers we type on: mindlessly responding to whatever exterior stimuli happens to influence us. I do not suppose to know how the mind or will fully functions – I did not make humans. However, I know what it cannot be alone (unintelligible, programmed responses).

If all of human thought and action were based merely on whatever desire happened to be strongest, moral praise and condemnation would be rendered senseless. People have no choice in what they do since they can only do whichever desire randomly happens to be strongest. Thus to condemn a bad man for his evil actions makes no sense – he could have done nothing else. Likewise, praising a good man for his righteous actions makes no sense – he had no choice in the matter. It would be like praising a tree for providing shade or condemning mud for sticking to your shoes. This being true, we can safely conclude human thought is more than mere programming based on the strongest desire, since God sees it fit to commend or condemn men based on their moral choices. If what you say concerning the human mind and will were true, Reformationist, God’s judgments would be perfectly senseless.

Beoga · Jun 9, 2006

Jedi, why did you type this post?
Did you have a stronger desire to something else?

Jebediah · Jun 9, 2006

Ok, now we are getting into philsophy of mind, and this is just not a simple subject...one of the most difficult in philosophy and the best two in the field are also PhDs in neuroscience.

The primary issue relevant here is what is causal in behavior? If we say that we have beliefs and desires and that they motivate behaviors, you then run into beliefs and desires causing beliefs and desires in layers of interaction eventually leading to an action or reaction.

So we end up also possesing "meta-reasoning", where we have people who choose to use a belief/desire (a belief in the existence of reason, or ethics, or aesthetics, or whatever and the structures thereof) and desire (the desire to modify one's actions relative to that belief) to control, interact with, and choose from many beliefs and desires to behave differently. This leads to attitudes, ways of making choices, introspection, and conceptual manipulation plus language.

Then we have to take into account the beliefs and desires change and are added to by learning and experience. Some parts become more ingrained than others and therefore are less easy to change. For example certain ideas I have about my emotions change a great deal and so one interaction may be enough to change my belief about my emotional state in a given situation. But if someone tells me something in science or math, I have to have a great deal of information change in order to change a basic idea (I would believe that some fundamental law in physics changed due to new knowledge, but only after a great deal of info from almost every source relevant that agreed with the change). However, I would only accept my internal data (direct feeling of an emotional shift) for one and only relevant sources (including following an experiment or proof) for the other, which also makes an argument there may be different types of beliefs, defined by how you choose among information sources.

Then you have to account for the fact that the perceiver of consciousness, the "self" that has beliefs and desires, has thoughts about them and that takes actions...the problem being that the "self" that has beliefs, desires, experiences, thoughts, a body, and takes actions is itself none of those things.

So, if we look just at the belief-desire thesis, we end up seeing that choice is not a simple question. People make choices for very complicated reasons, usually, if we actually make choices and take actions at all. Causality has a lot of sides on the issue.

GenemZ · Jun 9, 2006

Reformationist said:
I agree that it is man's natural inclination to sin. After all, I'm a reformed Christian. If you're familiar with the tenets of reformed doctrine you'll be well aware of where I stand on the condition of man's fallenness.

Having not (knowingly) studied the tenents of reformed doctrine (as you put it) I would have to simply say that we agree because this is a Biblical principle that holds true.

Regardless, you didn't previously claim that our fallen nature makes it inevitable that we will eventually sin when the opportunity rises. You said, "Free will makes it inevitable that, at some point, all those with fallen natures will disobey a command."

I am not sure what context you got that from. It seems that when I speak of certain things , as far as the state of man when he is unregenerate, and when he is carnal, and when he is spiritual, you are not sensing the context in which I speak. I can not locate what it is you are directing your remark about......

You see the difference? In your former post you attribute the inevitability of sin to the free will of man whereas, in the latter, you submit that it is our fallen, sinful nature that ensures that man will sin. Can you explain which, if either, you believe to be the truth?

Its the sin nature that makes sin inevitable. I am not sure how you get that with the free will issue. For we may be walking in the Spirit one second, and the next (because we chose to) find ourselves walking in the flesh. Why? We have free will to sin while the Spirit controls us. We must choose to sin. Its no longer having no choice as before we were saved.

The will is nothing more than the mind choosing. And, the mind chooses based on the strongest desire or inclination at the moment of choice.

Not necessarily when the decision is based upon a conflict we are facing which we know the doctrinal truth for. Sometimes the desire is stonger and the inclination is leading one way. Yet, in our heart we know logically what is right. The Truth.

Philippians 2:13 niv
"For it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

So, we must pray and deny the strong inclination, or desire... To take up our cross if we truly desire to follow Christ and deny self. It may even be done in a sense of great personal weakness. Yet, his grace is perfected in our weakness.

When we are weak, he is made strong. He sees that we desire to do what is right. He even enables us to desire what is right!

Philippians 2:13 niv
"For it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

His power makes it happen in that case. Your example of how the mind choses applies mostly to the unregenerate's state of mind. Or, the carnally minded. It can apply to the mature believer. But, that result is brought about by a transformed mind conditioned to respond to truth with desire and inclination which came from God's training.

That is why in the early years there is a need to work our our salvation in fear and trembling.... As Jesus said; we are to lose our life, rather than try to save it. If, we are going to find our life (in Christ).

As we mature and grow in grace and truth, we will find making a right choice a matter of having gone beyond the conflict stage. But, having free will means at times the denying what is the stronger of the two. As you claimed with...

The will is nothing more than the mind choosing. And, the mind chooses based on the strongest desire or inclination at the moment of choice.

That is how all unbelievers choose. That is how believers 'may' choose. It all depends if they are in the Spirit, or in the flesh. Even Jesus said at one point..."Not my will, but thy will be done." His inclination and desire was not the one he chose.

Transformation is what is taking place when we deny self and go with the truth which we must acknowledge as being true.

me said:

The soul is not free to do what it wills because the flesh with its sin nature dominates over the soul.

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you said:
This is absolutely untrue. First off, the Bible speaks of God removing fallen man's "heart" of stone and replacing it with a "heart" of flesh (Ez 36:26).

I was speaking of the state of man outside of control by the Spirit. That was the context. You placed what I said into another context. Yet, it can also apply to a believer who chooses to sin.

When the Spirit does not control us (from a refusal to acknowledge a sin we fell into) the flesh gains the ascendency as long as we keep denying we sinned about something. We need to admit our sins to God in order to stay in fellowship (grace enabled) as believers!

1 John 1:6-10 (New International Version)
"If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives."

The word translated here as "heart" is not a reference to the muscle that pumps blood throughout our body. It is the Hebrew word leb, which means, "inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding."

I understand this. In the Greek it was nous and kardia. One side of the brain takes in information (nous). The other side (kardia=heart) is where our decisions are made, and personal values are stored. God looks upon our heart and sees who we really are.

Proverbs 23:7a
"For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he."

When God regenerates man from death in trespasses and sins to life in Christ, He does so by giving him a new nature, that is, changing his will from one that is inclined to sin to on that desires to obey God.

That inclination to obey is there as long as we remain in fellowship with the Holy Spirit. Paul had a terrible time with the carnal Christians in Corinth. They were saved, but they still thought like the world in many ways. As we mature we do not become sinless. We simply become stronger in grace and truth, and "sin less."

The truth of unregenerate man is that he is incapable of doing the will of God because sin has pervaded, and corrupted, every aspect of his being, from his flesh to his fallen desires.

Its the flesh that has full reign over the soul. Just like booze in excess controls the body. Yet, God's grace has power to isolate the effect of the flesh over the soul, and gives this enabling grace at moments when truth is given, so the soul can be isolated and allowed to choose for, or against the truth. Without grace? He could never choose but to reject out of sin's impulse. The sin nature must be isolated from the soul before a soul can be free to choose as one would truly desire.

Your citation of Romans 7:18 is completely inappropriate in this situation because Paul is a believer when he differentiates between the newness of his regenerate nature and the fallen weakness of his flesh.

I was just citing how carnality works in the immature believer. So was Paul at one time. For he spoke in retrospect. To show that we are not out of the woods yet right after we are saved.

Sanctification is progressive, not instantaneous once we are saved. Positionally (what God declares as being, without sight evidence to back it up) we are all sanctified in God's mind. For he sees what will be, as if it already is. Yet, experientially (what we do experience) we need to go through the process of progressive sanctification which is never 100% completed until we are in the new body.

Well, you and I may have had no choice in the matter but a choice was certainly made on our behalf and the choice that was made was the exact same choice that we would have made.

That is where God's omniscience comes into play. He knows exactly how we would feel about our current life, if we were in our resurrection body, being made able to look back to this point in our lives.

Sometimes I believe I would want to beat the daylights out of myself to make sure I do not take the wrong turn if I could look back on my life on earth when in Eternity.

God scourges those he receives as sons. He knows now where we should be in Etermity. No matter how painful our discipline may be, we would have been the one clobbering ourselves if we could be simultaneously in this body, and looking down from Heaven from Eternity. So, I agree with what you say. I will repeat it, again....

Well, you and I may have had no choice in the matter but a choice was certainly made on our behalf and the choice that was made was the exact same choice that we would have made.

He may even be a bit more gentler with me than I would have been with myself.

me said:

Yet, God's grace is what enables the soul to see clear of the flesh as to make a choice for Christ. Without grace? No one would be saved. For? Without grace? All flesh is anatgonistic to the Spirit. Since we had no choice in being fallen? God gives the flesh no say when he draws our souls. Grace controls the flesh so the soul is made free to choose for the truth being presented to the soul.

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you said:
What you describe sounds like nothing more than the unbiblical view of prevenient grace. Tell me Gene, if God universally controls the flesh, thereby enabling the souls of all people to "choose for the truth being presented in the Gospel," what is the determining factor in why some accept that truth and why some choose, as you call it, "evil?"

Why did Lucifer choose evil? He did not do so from a fallen state. That followed after he rebelled. That is the reason why some who receive the grace to free up the soul from the dominance of the fallen flesh, still reject Christ. Its the same as the evil of Satan. That is why they share in the Lake of Fire that was created for the Devil and his angels.

Here is an example of what grace I speak of. Grace that took was provided in the early stages of the drawing of God upon a soul. A soul whom desired to reject the knowledge of God after grace made it known to him.

Romans 1:18-21 (New International Version)
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitieshis eternal power and divine naturehave been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened."

That is a prime example of how grace freed up a soul to know truth in the drawing of God, yet evil took over and was used to suppress the truth God had made known to them.

Those souls in Romans 1 were heading to become reprobates. Why would God draw a reprobate? That is, if he only draws those whom he knows will believe?

That passage shows that God draws all men. Even those whom God knows will become reprobates!

These reprobates got no further in grace than God consciousness and said, "NO MORE!" The wickedness they suppress this truth with might today be found in someone with an obsession with atheistic evolution. Who knows?

But, they choose evil (lies to counter the truth) as the means to suppress the truth God made known to them. For, it says... God himself made it known. They are without excuse.

"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. "

"have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. "

Why are these reprobates without excuse? Grace made their souls aware of God's truth about himself. It took grace to make their soul see what God made known as to leave them to be without excuse. For if grace did not open the eyes of their hearts to see the truth? Then they would be with excuse for rejecting what was shown them. Sin did not cause the rejection of truth. Evil did. Sin makes one blind. Grace makes one able to see. Evil shuts the eyes after it has been shown and denies having seen anything.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

It was Gods will that Adam sinned.

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It was Gods will that Adam sinned.