Ok.

Optimax · Jun 6, 2006

Tatu said:
I calculated (using UNICEF statistics) that at least 60,000 children die in Africa every month because of malaria.

That's like a killer tsunami or earthquake happening, constantly.

Children alone.

Every month.

A malaria vaccine only costs $2.80 a pop.

That's just one snapshot of poverty. There are people dying because they don't get Vitamin A. They might eat white rice for 6 months in a row if they're lucky.

Here's my question.

Based on a larger scope of the planet: why is the majority of the earth poor like that?

By majority, I mean at least 6 billion people live in complete abject poverty. They can't wear whatever clothes they want -- they're thankful if they get to eat. And have a shoddy roof. And thank God, if they can go to school.

Seriously, why are we all filthy rich compared to billions of people that God loves just as much?

What say you?

Good Post Tatu! Take God's love to recognize this type of thing happening and show concern over it.

Christina M · Jun 6, 2006

Mark 14:7
For you have the poor with you always, and whenever you wish you may do them good; but Me you do not have always.

I believe that there will always be poor, just as there will always be those who are sick, and just as there will always be those who do not accept salvation.

That is why we are instructed so often in scripture to gain wisdom and knowledge to prosper so we can help those in need. (It is hard to give when you barely have enough of your own.)

Psalm 41:1
Blessed is he who considers the poor; The Lord will deliver him in time of trouble.

Proverbs 19:17
He who has pity on the poor lends to the Lord, And He will pay back what he has given.

Proverbs 28:27
He who gives to the poor will not lack, But he who hides his eyes will have many curses.

The part in red above is true with regard to corrupt governments and officials, and even Christians who ignore the need.

Trish is correct in that Deut 28 lays it all out......clear as a bell.

lismore · Jun 6, 2006

Tatu said:
Why are you richer than 5.76 billion people?

The capitalist system. In order for a small number of people to be rich a greater number have to be poor.

pdudgeon · Jun 6, 2006

the very short answer to your question of why there is such poverty and hunger in the world is not because there isn't enough to go around. there is.

God is our provider and He has provided enough for everyone here. But there are people in India who won't eat cattle, there are others in Africa, Europe, Asia and South America who have denuded the forrests and caused the destruction of the land as a result. There are tribes in Africa who won't accept shots of innoculation against disease that is under control or all but erradicated elsewhere, because they hold false ideas that the shots will cause sterility.

the basic reason for all of this is because people have accepted a lie instead of the truth.

how did Jesus put it? John 10:10 "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly."

sherri · Jun 7, 2006

Trish1947 said:
What ever the statistics truely are, would you think that Deut 28 has alot to do with conditions that you see? Both blessings and cursings are listed. It's not that God is the one that is bringing the curse. It's just that we are all cursed until you come to the one true God? In other words, the power of the devil is still active in peoples lives that know not Christ. Thats why the Gospel has to be preached in these area's, to bring people into light, and out from under the power of the devil. Those that have been blessed do help, but when countries are under control of corrupt leaders, your liable to see very little help actually get through to those who need it the most.

I agree. The bible says that the devil comes to rob, steal and destroy. Put him as the head of your nation through worshipping other gods (the bible clearly states that there are only two sources of supernatural power, God and Satan) and guess whats going to happen. The bible says "See, I have put before you both life and death, blessing and cursing, choose life therefore so that you and your descendents may live."

Think about wealth and poverty. Which are the richest nations and the ones with the most peace, best social structures etc in the world? The protestent christian nations. Which are next on the list. The catholic christian nations. Which are next. The ones that used to be christian but threw it away like russia and eastern europe. Which are next. The asian countries that worship buddah or are taoists etc (although the last two can be around the same level in some areas as a lot of modern asia has thrown out religion as well). Next. The Islamic segments. Which are the lowest on the scale. The ones that basically circle around tribal witchcraft like the african nations and the pacific islands.

The root of the problem is worshipping satan. The closer you get to the root source the bigger your problems are, the closer you get to God, the more prosperous and blessed you become.

Alpine · Jun 7, 2006

sherri said:
Think about wealth and poverty. Which are the richest nations and the ones with the most peace, best social structures etc in the world? The protestent christian nations. Which are next on the list. The catholic christian nations. Which are next. The ones that used to be christian but threw it away like russia and eastern europe. Which are next. The asian countries that worship buddah or are taoists etc (although the last two can be around the same level in some areas as a lot of modern asia has thrown out religion as well). Next. The Islamic segments. Which are the lowest on the scale. The ones that basically circle around tribal witchcraft like the african nations and the pacific islands.

The root of the problem is worshipping satan. The closer you get to the root source the bigger your problems are, the closer you get to God, the more prosperous and blessed you become.

I don't agree with that at all. You have to remember that in the middle ages the most powerful and wealthy nations in the world were the Muslim nations! Christian Europe was the 3rd world of that day. Does that mean that Christianity was false because the nations were not blessed?

Look at this list of countries ranked by GNP. Japan is #2. China #6. South Korea #12. India #13. Taiwan is #16. Turkey #23. Indonesia #25. Thailand #26.

All of those are nations where Christianity is a minoritiy religion. How do you explain those nations having powerful economies despite their religious status?

Hisgirl · Jun 7, 2006

Tatu--good topic.

When in Mexico, I saw many families living in squallor...but they were rich in Kingdom things. They loved Jesus and wore a smile on their face. I have a relative who is a millionaire. She eats like a queen. But she is kingdom poor.

So my question to you would be, rich by whose standard?

Kebisoni · Jun 7, 2006

I think that that I fail to see the poor with God's eyes, and I tend to close my own to often. So that though I should have sight to help lead others ought of poverty - I choose to be blind.

Yes, poverty is caused by war, by disobedience to God, by laziness and corruption - but it is also caused when not enough good people care enough about their brothers and sisters enough to offer a glass of water or help them find food and shelter.

So why are there so many poor in the world? Because there are too many good people, like me, who simply aren't doing enough to help. We are so busy with other good things - that we rush by on the other side - and just hope a Good Samaritan turns up - because we know we won't be stopping our own lives. :o

BenAdam · Jun 7, 2006

Tatu said:
Guys, I asked why from a Biblical perspective.

So far I've seen nothing but

the statistics attacked.

self-comforting "poverty is relative" trash.

I am not asking for your practical advice on how to solve world poverty. I'm asking why God made you rich and them poor.

Do you believe that it's God's will for them to be poor?

Nonhype hunger statistic:

So saying billions are starving is hype. But 800,000,000 are starving.

If you want more nonhype statistics, go to http://www.bread.org/learn/hunger-basics/hunger-facts-international.html .

My question still stands.

Nonhype wealth statistic:

That means you're born better off than 86% (or 5.5b people).

BenAdam, I grew up as a missionary kid. I've been to the most extreme conditions of poverty in the western hemisphere and I've lived in one of the poorest countries in Asia for a short time. I've also been to "moderately poor" third world countries on a couple continents..

With the amount of ruin I've seen, you have no idea how ridiculous it sounds to hear someone be flippant and say, "Well, poverty is relative. They're not that poor in their own country."

I didn't say poverty was relative, I said wealth is. Thank you for posting some real statistics, and quite frankly they are staggering.

Now for another Biblical perspective, material wealth isn't true wealth. Spiritual wealth is. Someone that is not well to do but gives anyway is wealthy, someone with everything that gives nothing is impovrished. We need to help take care of the truely needey my friend, that is why God has blessed us with money.

SharonL · Jun 7, 2006

Well another prespective (which you won't like) is this.

I have always helped the poor and needy - I've taken them in my house, I have gathered neighbors around to helped the needy, I've brought groceries into their homes, I've run around to grocery stores and got the veggies they can't sell and distribute them, I've found jobs for those that needed them, I've gone into their homes and cleaned, cooked for them, driven them to doctors, shopping, kids things, etc - now having said that - I've had one family pull themselves up and move on and tell us thank you - now you can go help someone else we can make it - ONE family over the last 50 years -

Now I'm talking about families in the US where there is plenty to go around. It is a different story in third world countries where there is nothing for them.

But I try to help in my own back yard and I give to churches that help other countries.

But I don't see many here that I have helped that want to move on, but just want that hand out and someone to take care of them - now I am not being cruel - this is from experience.

I begged this company to hire this lady whose husband was disabled so she could have some income - after obtaining the job for her - she tells me she would rather stay home - well "who wouldn't" - I didn't see any reason to bust my rear to help her when she didn't want to help herself. When I stopped helping - she called and said "have you given up on us" - I said no - you have given up on yourself.

A lot of times things are not what they seem - some people just do not want to help themselves.

Trish1947 · Jun 7, 2006

Kebisoni said:
I think that that I fail to see the poor with God's eyes, and I tend to close my own to often. So that though I should have sight to help lead others ought of poverty - I choose to be blind.

Yes, poverty is caused by war, by disobedience to God, by laziness and corruption - but it is also caused when not enough good people care enough about their brothers and sisters enough to offer a glass of water or help them find food and shelter.

So why are there so many poor in the world? Because there are too many good people, like me, who simply aren't doing enough to help. We are so busy with other good things - that we rush by on the other side - and just hope a Good Samaritan turns up - because we know we won't be stopping our own lives. :o

I think we need to get at the root of the problem. I saw a couple of weeks ago on the news that showed the food given to Africa sitting stacked in warehouses, and lying on the docks from all the faith based support, and the secular. It was stacked on the docks, stacked to the ceilings of warehouses, unfortunatley the local thugs were sitting there with machine guns, making sure no one got it. It had been seized by the local criminals that are running the show over there. I don't care how much you give, until this can be overcome, no one will eat.
If Jesus said that poor you will have with you always, I don't think He meant its because we don't give enough. It's just that the problem that causes these things, which are many, will not be solved. But it does give opportunity to be generous in our giving. Maybe prayer about these evil governments that use withholding of food that has been given by the many to abtain power over these people, is where we need to start.

Kebisoni · Jun 7, 2006

Trish1947 said:
I think we need to get at the root of the problem. I saw a couple of weeks ago on the news that showed the food given to Africa sitting stacked in warehouses, and lying on the docks from all the faith based support, and the secular. It was stacked on the docks, stacked to the ceilings of warehouses, unfortunatley the local thugs were sitting there with machine guns, making sure no one got it. It had been seized by the local criminals that are running the show over there. I don't care how much you give, until this can be overcome, no one will eat.
If Jesus said that poor you will have with you always, I don't think He meant its because we don't give enough. It's just that the problem that causes these things, which are many, will not be solved. But it does give opportunity to be generous in our giving. Maybe prayer about these evil governments that use withholding of food that has been given by the many to abtain power over these people, is where we need to start.

Yes, I certainly didn't just mean that we need to give more financial help - I do give to developing countries and have worked there as a volunteer - every now and again though I reminded that I don't pray nearly enough for them (or give enough probably) - and I agree - prayer and God will ultimately change things - not money or man alone. This thread has just reminded me though - there is no use complaining I don't like what I see in the world if most of the time I blind myself to the problem and refuse to do anything about it. And I have a tendency to do that....I am sure I am not alone.

There are many ways to help other than just money and prayer too - you can recycle stuff, give to charity shops, buy fair trade products, apply political pressure, run campaigns and fundraisers in church etc....I am just shocked at my recent apathy in this area. When I was younger I did far more.

Christina M · Jun 7, 2006

Kebisoni said:
I think that that I fail to see the poor with God's eyes,

Hey K...

That is exactly how my ministry to the poor and homeless started!!

I was sitting at a stoplight and saw a homeless tweeker-prostitute at the corner. I, as usual, said to myself... "Why doesn't she just get a job and off the streets?"..... all of a sudden a prayer bubbled up: "Lord, let me see her with YOUR eyes!!"

God answered that prayer and the ministry was born in 1997!

GOD IS GOOD!!

Kebisoni · Jun 7, 2006

Great prayer Christina!! One we should all adopt every day....

Christina M · Jun 7, 2006

SharonL said:
Well another prespective (which you won't like) is this.

I have always helped the poor and needy - I've taken them in my house, I have gathered neighbors around to helped the needy, I've brought groceries into their homes, I've run around to grocery stores and got the veggies they can't sell and distribute them, I've found jobs for those that needed them, I've gone into their homes and cleaned, cooked for them, driven them to doctors, shopping, kids things, etc - now having said that - I've had one family pull themselves up and move on and tell us thank you - now you can go help someone else we can make it - ONE family over the last 50 years -

Now I'm talking about families in the US where there is plenty to go around. It is a different story in third world countries where there is nothing for them.

But I try to help in my own back yard and I give to churches that help other countries.

But I don't see many here that I have helped that want to move on, but just want that hand out and someone to take care of them - now I am not being cruel - this is from experience.

I begged this company to hire this lady whose husband was disabled so she could have some income - after obtaining the job for her - she tells me she would rather stay home - well "who wouldn't" - I didn't see any reason to bust my rear to help her when she didn't want to help herself. When I stopped helping - she called and said "have you given up on us" - I said no - you have given up on yourself.

A lot of times things are not what they seem - some people just do not want to help themselves.

Sad to say, SharonL, this can be so true.

We see it alot in our ministry.

We find we need to educate them more on how much more they can have (spirit, soul and body) if they get out there and WORK... once they do, their self-esteem rises, they feel good they have bettered themselves and now are participants in life instead of takers.

It is so wonderful to see the glorious transformations! :clap:

And yes, it is heartbreaking to see those who don't transform. :sigh:

Christina M · Jun 7, 2006

Trish1947 said:
I think we need to get at the root of the problem. I saw a couple of weeks ago on the news that showed the food given to Africa sitting stacked in warehouses, and lying on the docks from all the faith based support, and the secular. It was stacked on the docks, stacked to the ceilings of warehouses, unfortunatley the local thugs were sitting there with machine guns, making sure no one got it. It had been seized by the local criminals that are running the show over there. I don't care how much you give, until this can be overcome, no one will eat.
If Jesus said that poor you will have with you always, I don't think He meant its because we don't give enough. It's just that the problem that causes these things, which are many, will not be solved. But it does give opportunity to be generous in our giving. Maybe prayer about these evil governments that use withholding of food that has been given by the many to abtain power over these people, is where we need to start.

You're right, Trish!

It is a battle that has to be attacked SPIRITUALLY as well as PHYSICALLY.

Andrew · Jun 7, 2006

There are a thousand and one reasons why some people are poor and some are rich -- from laziness to corruption to rejection of the Gospel to lack of wisdom to tithing to lack of grace to wars...

Personally, I believe the main reason is the gospel. Where the gospel has gone to and been received, people of that nation generally prosper. Of cse, there are 'exceptions'.

All I know is that it is God's will for us to prosper and be in health, and that prosperity and health are in the atonement. It's just that these blessings don't exactly fall automatically on your lap just becos you are a believer.

sherri · Jun 8, 2006

Alpine said:
I don't agree with that at all. You have to remember that in the middle ages the most powerful and wealthy nations in the world were the Muslim nations! Christian Europe was the 3rd world of that day. Does that mean that Christianity was false because the nations were not blessed?

Look at this list of countries ranked by GNP. Japan is #2. China #6. South Korea #12. India #13. Taiwan is #16. Turkey #23. Indonesia #25. Thailand #26.

All of those are nations where Christianity is a minoritiy religion. How do you explain those nations having powerful economies despite their religious status?

I don't know where australia is rated on that list but I've been to korea and they immigrate here for a reason. And china is above canada on that list. So the average chinese person enjoys a better standard of living and a better social struture then canada? Really?

I know who has a better standard of living for the average person out of Japan and Australia/America and Britain too regardless of their GNP.

And the muslim nations being more wealthy and powerful then europe in the middle ages :scratch:

Hello! Have you ever looked at the castles and ciites of europe pre-renassaince and compared them with the middle east?

Tenebrae · Jun 8, 2006

Tatu said:
Guys, I asked why from a Biblical perspective.

So far I've seen nothing but

the statistics attacked.

self-comforting "poverty is relative" trash.

Ok you can "relative trash" all you like... However the fact remains is that a family in a western country can not have enough for all the basics, however the money they have, would still feed familes in an african nation

Build a bridge, its a fact

seekthetruth909 · Jun 13, 2006

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0849945305/qid=1150235446/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-1119057-6967933?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

Midwest Book Review
Rich Christians In An Age Of Hunger is written for our times, when every day more than 34,000 children die of starvation and preventable diseases, and 1. 3 billion human beings live in relentless, unrelieved poverty worldwide. Why is there still so much poverty in the world? Conservatives blame sinful individual choices and laziness. Liberals condemn economic and social structures. Who is right? Who is wrong? Both, according to Ronald Sider in this newly revised, expanded and updated edition of Rich Christians In An Age Of Hunger. Sider explains that poverty is the result of complex causes, and then he presents practical, workable proposes for change, proposals that should be taken up by every man and every woman who seeks to deserve the title "Christian" and to apply and to follow the teaches of Jesus of Nazareth in the modern world. --This text refers to the Paperback edition.
Book Description
Do you want to make a true difference in the world? Dr. Ron Sider does. He has, since before he first published Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger in 1978. Despite a dramatic reduction in world hunger since then, 34,000 children still die daily of starvation and preventable disease, and 1.3 billion people, worldwide, remain in abject poverty. So, the professor of theology went back to re-examine the issues by twenty-first century standards. Finding that Conservatives blame morally reprehensible individual choices, and Liberals blame constrictive social and economic policy, Dr. Sider finds himself agreeing with both sides. In this new look at an age-old problem, he offers not only a detailed explanation of the causes, but also a comprehensive series of practical solutions, in the hopes that Christians like him will choose to make a difference.

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