The Spiritual Gift Of Prophecy - is it really a gift?

e4God · Jul 7, 2002

Do you know anything abou the Spiritual Gift of Prophecy ?  I need some wisdom... 

This "Gift" does not seem like a gift.  It is more of a curse.  Many OT prophets paid for the gift with their death. 

As a modern Christian who has this gift, I thought it was cool at first...  I tried to express it in love, but even then most people feel that I am too pushy, out of order, etc...  Actually, many people in the social and spiritual groups I belong to seem to value and respect the gift, but the leadership in these groups do not like it at all.

Then I found this gift was responsible for most of the rejection and pain in my life. I often find myself unpopular - as people don't like to be confronted, preached to, exposed to scripture that counters their agenda, etc...  I am accused of being a moralist, of violating the scripture that says do not judge. 

So I tried to bury it, especially at my church, where prophets are not valued...   But that does not work, as the "gift" simply expresses itself in other ways...  In my business life even.  Whenever leaders get it wrong, and will not listen to truth, it causes a lot of friction.  I learned to bite my tongue and not say anything. But that does nobody any good, least of all myself, in that I am becoming cynical and negative.

What are some good and welcome ways to express this gift in the body today?  What are some expressions of this gift that churches or the christian community actually value?

  

Manifestation1*AD70 · Jul 7, 2002

Originally posted by e4God
Do you know anything abou the Spiritual Gift of Prophecy ?  I need some wisdom... 

This "Gift" does not seem like a gift.  It is more of a curse.  Many OT prophets paid for the gift with their death. 

As a modern Christian who has this gift, I thought it was cool at first...  I tried to express it in love, but even then most people feel that I am too pushy, out of order, etc...  Actually, many people in the social and spiritual groups I belong to seem to value and respect the gift, but the leadership in these groups do not like it at all.

Then I found this gift was responsible for most of the rejection and pain in my life. I often find myself unpopular - as people don't like to be confronted, preached to, exposed to scripture that counters their agenda, etc...  I am accused of being a moralist, of violating the scripture that says do not judge. 

So I tried to bury it, especially at my church, where prophets are not valued...   But that does not work, as the "gift" simply expresses itself in other ways...  In my business life even.  Whenever leaders get it wrong, and will not listen to truth, it causes a lot of friction.  I learned to bite my tongue and not say anything. But that does nobody any good, least of all myself, in that I am becoming cynical and negative.

What are some good and welcome ways to express this gift in the body today?  What are some expressions of this gift that churches or the christian community actually value?

  

Hi e4God

We must remember there is a big difference in those why believe they are prophets of God today, then those who were inspired, prophets of God that were not valued, and died or gave their lives in faith for the promises of God that was to be theirs under the New Covenant (Hebrews 11

We must remember there are no inspired prophets today who speak to Israel on the behaft of God about the coming kingdom.....

Mike Beidler · Jul 7, 2002

Originally posted by e4God
Do you know anything abou the Spiritual Gift of Prophecy ?  I need some wisdom...  As a modern Christian who has this gift, I thought it was cool at first...  I tried to express it in love, but even then most people feel that I am too pushy, out of order, etc...  Actually, many people in the social and spiritual groups I belong to seem to value and respect the gift, but the leadership in these groups do not like it at all.   Then I found this gift was responsible for most of the rejection and pain in my life. I often find myself unpopular - as people don't like to be confronted, preached to, exposed to scripture that counters their agenda, etc...  I am accused of being a moralist, of violating the scripture that says do not judge.  So I tried to bury it, especially at my church, where prophets are not valued...   But that does not work, as the "gift" simply expresses itself in other ways...  In my business life even.  Whenever leaders get it wrong, and will not listen to truth, it causes a lot of friction.  I learned to bite my tongue and not say anything. But that does nobody any good, least of all myself, in that I am becoming cynical and negative.   

 

First of all, it's extremely important that you tell us what you believe constitutes the "gift of prophecy" and examples of how you exercised it in the past.

Patmosman_sga · Jul 7, 2002

Introducing yourself as "a modern Christian who has this gift" raises an immediate red flag. We are not to go around boasting about having this or that gift. That would only call attention to ourselves. The purpose of spiritual gifts is to edify the Body of Christ so that God may be glorified among his people. The gift of prophecy is most certainly not to be used in isolation from other gifts, particularly the gift of discernment. One who believes they have the gift of prophecy must have that gift confirmed by the Body. If you are feeling rejected by your fellow believers, it may just be that you either do not have this gift or you are not using it responsibly.

Prophecy under the New Covenant does not reveal anything new. The gift is intended, rather, to help the community of believers grow in their understanding of the truth God has already revealed in Jesus Christ. So you need to take care that whatever you believe God is revealing to you is consistent with what he has said through the inspired writers of Scripture.

If fellow believers are saying you are being too pushy, you might want to consider their rebuke with grace and humility. You need only venture over to the Eschatology forum to see the bitter fruit of those who have placed themselves above rebuke and correction.

e4God · Jul 7, 2002

Points made are all well taken and have all been considered already.

We must remember there are no inspired prophets today who speak to Israel on the behaft of God about the coming kingdom.....

Don't worry, I am not writing a new bible

 

But there are those who are sensitive to the leading of the Spirit and therefore know how to pray in a given situation, as in for healing or comfort and grace... 

...and those who may receive a word of wisdom or a word of knowledge in order to advise leaders about a difficult decision - as to which choice is most likely within God's will... etc

...and there those who are led by the spirit to share a particular scripture that just "suddenly comes to mind" when whispered by a still small voice, for application in a particular situation in the life of a seeker or believer....

In this age, I believe that the gift of prophecy involves forthtelling, not foretelling.  But Jesus did say, as he left this world, that he had more to tell the disciples, but that they were not ready for it. 

Why would the disciples teach things Jesus had NOT said, except that they believed in ongoing revelation?  Now, I know that most of the Protestant church does not accept this today... and am not trying to start a fight.  (Am even undecided about this myself - But you cannot help but wonder....  Of course I accept the teachings of the modern church that there will be no more scripture revealed...  since I submit to my church leaders...)   

Anyway, if we are to shine the light of truth, using scripture to "expose the fruitless deeds of darkness", then there is no doubt that we will have the experience of being rejected. 

Jesus said, "Be not surprised if you have trouble in this world, even as I have had trouble, but fear not, for I have overcome the world."

We must remember there are no inspired prophets today... giving their lives for the faith

Well, there are.  If you follow world news, you will see that this does not happen often in America, but does happen often enough elsewhere...  The very fact that people give their lives for what they believe continues to be as convincing today as it was back then... 

I certainly agree that today's prophets are not giving us new revelation, but that they might give us new interpretations (that make sense) or new application... or new leadership...  or a better understanding of cultural differences between ancient cultures and our modern culture, so that we can better understand the Word.

We are not to go around boasting about having this or that gift. That would only call attention to ourselves. The purpose of spiritual gifts is to edify the Body of Christ so that God may be glorified among his people.

Agreed, entirely.  I am not running around boasting.  Am asking fellow believers about the use of the gift.  eg:  attempting to discover how to use it better. 

It may be that even with the proper exercise, some persons or church leaders would not respond as desired, but might respond with defensiveness or even rejection, even as Christ was rejected by the Pharisees. 

Jesus said, "I come not to unite the world, but to divide it..."  Sometimes we need somebody to help us make choices, or see the choice in the first place.  Just start calling Sport's Illustrated swimsuit issue "inappropriate contentography" in your workplace and see how much uniting you do

 

Don't you think that loving confrontation is proper exercise of the gift of prophecy, or sharing the result of your scripture meditation and prayer with other believers, even when it does not fit their agenda? 

Or are you saying that when properly exercised, this gift would never cause controversy or conflict ?  Wouldn't that result in a social gospel and a church that was really a social club or book club, instead of a church that was made up of members who could "be bold and do exploits" ?

Patmosman_sga · Jul 7, 2002

Originally posted by e4God

Or are you saying that when properly exercised, this gift would never cause controversy or conflict ?  Wouldn't that result in a social gospel and a church that was really a social club or book club, instead of a church that was made up of members who could "be bold and do exploits" ?

It would not cause controversy among those who are truly spiritual, that is, in a state of full submission to the Holy Spirit. It would cause controversy among those who are lacking in spiritual discernment. "Leaders" are often the most resistant to prophetic vision because they are entrenched and institutionalized. Often, a prophet will come along who calls the Church out of its institutional form of religion and back to its roots under the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. Old guard "leaders" do not like this because they see it as a threat to their authority. In times past, these "leaders" may have been prophets themselves, but they lack the gift of discernment to know when God is calling them to move in a new direction. As a result, they become guilty of a very subtle form of idolatry. Pointing this out to them is not easy.

debs · Jul 7, 2002

Hi e4God..good posting I love to talk about the Gifts.
I have also come aginst the wall of rejection that u speak of. When I first began to move in these things, I soon realised that the leadership of that church just kind of looked at me sidewards and went on with what they were doing which gave me doubts about many things. And I like Elijah really wanted to run away. Since then God has done much teaching and training (including getting rid of caring about what others think (I mean that in a personal internal way of course not as any kind of rebellion against leadership as many would jump to that conclusion as soon as they read that)
I have a check list of faith hope and love, and if a word/vision etc measures up to scripture and this list also, then I go ahead..
I have a friend who says that he doesnt mind if someone prophecies from the flesh/ but dont ever bring anything in the wrong spirit..thats my guidelines anyway.
And how others choose to deal with His message is up to them.

e4God · Jul 7, 2002

Well, pointing things out is easy enough, but the aftermath is not easy to take...

In times past, these "leaders" may have been prophets themselves, but they lack the gift of discernment to know when God is calling them to move in a new direction. As a result, they become guilty of a very subtle form of idolatry. Pointing this out to them is not easy.

debs · Jul 7, 2002

I think that if its of God and theres not too much 'man in it' then hearing is the responsibility of the hearer " be careful therefore How u hear"
I also understand that not every revelation the Lord gives is to be announced...sometimes its up to us to pray about it instead in our closets, so that God can work by his spirit to open ears and hearts.

Brian45 · Jul 8, 2002

Originally posted by e4God
Do you know anything abou the Spiritual Gift of Prophecy ?  I need some wisdom... 

This "Gift" does not seem like a gift.  It is more of a curse.  Many OT prophets paid for the gift with their death. 

As a modern Christian who has this gift, I thought it was cool at first...  I tried to express it in love, but even then most people feel that I am too pushy, out of order, etc...  Actually, many people in the social and spiritual groups I belong to seem to value and respect the gift, but the leadership in these groups do not like it at all.

Then I found this gift was responsible for most of the rejection and pain in my life. I often find myself unpopular - as people don't like to be confronted, preached to, exposed to scripture that counters their agenda, etc...  I am accused of being a moralist, of violating the scripture that says do not judge. 

So I tried to bury it, especially at my church, where prophets are not valued...   But that does not work, as the "gift" simply expresses itself in other ways...  In my business life even.  Whenever leaders get it wrong, and will not listen to truth, it causes a lot of friction.  I learned to bite my tongue and not say anything. But that does nobody any good, least of all myself, in that I am becoming cynical and negative.

What are some good and welcome ways to express this gift in the body today?  What are some expressions of this gift that churches or the christian community actually value? 

 

Prophecy  to  me  and  I  will  tell  you  whether  you  are  a  true  or  false  prophet  .

e4God · Jul 8, 2002

Brian:  I will assume your post was made in love.

Prophecy  to  me  and  I  will  tell  you  whether  you  are  a  true  or  false  prophet.

 

I know that Scripture says to judge prophets by the truth of their prophecy.  If the prophecy is false, even once, the prophet is not a true prophet.  The scriptural support for this, and application, is in regard to foretelling, not forthtelling.  However, with regard to forthtelling, Consider this: 

Jesus told a story about the wheat and the tares...  Tares are a weed that looks just like wheat until it is mature and goes to seed (bears fruit).  Jesus said that believers should leave the tares until the end.  His story says we are not the final judge.  The implication is that we cannot tell the difference correctly, and that we may end up being  surprised about who actually gets into heaven and who does not. 

By this story I gather that none of us are in a position to make the judgement you promised to make, except in the case of foretelling, which most believers is not a gift for today. 

All teachers are supposed to be able to rightly divide the word.  On the other hand, prophecy in the form of application, or counseling, by the use of scripture along with words of knowledge and wisdom, is to be judged on the last day, by its fruit, by God, not man, with Christ as mediator. 

Does anybody believe that there are prophets today who can predict the future, in our present church age?  Did Christ give the teaching about judging prophets, or was it one of the disciples?  Was he speaking about dead prophets?  Was this teaching given in a particular tense that would inform us as to its meaning and application in time?  Does anybody know?

Thunderchild · Jul 8, 2002

It figures: "Your sons and your daughters will prophesy" is part of the Old Testament prophecies regarding the New Covenant - but of course, there are those today who will tell you that the prophets and apostles are no longer with us - and the Sadducees of Jesus's time declared that there were no angels.

Are we under the New Covenant? Or perhaps we are under some post-New Covenant that God neglected to mention would be brought into effect?

Thunderchild · Jul 8, 2002

I know that Scripture says to judge prophets by the truth of their prophecy. If the prophecy is false, even once, the prophet is not a true prophet. The scriptural support for this, and application, is in regard to foretelling, not forthtelling. However, with regard to forthtelling,

False...in part. The fact is that a prophet in training will often interpret the prophecy he (or she) is given, rather than give the prophecy in the pure form. In doing so he or she will contaminate the message - and the contaminated message will often not quite match the facts. Under the tutelage of more experienced prophets, that error would be caught, and a true rendering given. However, to be able to do it, the prophet in training needs to have access to a more experienced prophet. That doesn't often happen in this age (reasons many and varied - but predominantly it has to do with the way the churches react to the presence of a prophet).

Does anybody believe that there are prophets today who can predict the future, in our present church age?

(I think I have addressed the answer to the balance of this passage already - could be wrong.) I believe what I have seen - and I most certainly believe that there are prophets today who can predict the future. Those matters I am familiar with address the specific circumstances of specific individuals though - I have not seen mass scale prophecy at all, and small scale (with regard to a church) only once. In each of these cases, the prophet, where an error was made, became aware of the error before the prophecy was fulfilled, and with rare exceptions, was able to correct his foretelling before the events came to pass.

Thunderchild · Jul 8, 2002

Eze 2:2 - 7

And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me. And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, [even] unto this very day. For [they are] impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD. And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they [are] a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.

Eze 2:6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns [be] with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they [be] a rebellious house. And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they [are] most rebellious.

To those who criticise the passing of judgement, say this: "If we are not permitted to pass judgement, by what right do you pass judgement on me? Or explain how the Bible is wrong in its instructions regarding unruly members. How can they be expelled from the assembly without that judgement be passed against them?" (this is likely to get you expelled from the assembly - don't sweat it, the event is outlined in the gospels - but don't go courting it.)

Recommended reading: Ezekiel

e4God · Jul 8, 2002

Patmos, Debs, and Thunderchild:

Good stuff... Thanx....  

I note that Ezekiel is OT, but the advice is timeless...  Still, would be nice to have more NT on Prophesy

The verses, "Your old men will dream dreams and your young men will see visions..." supports the mystical or prophetic methods of communication with God...  as does the experience of the apostles themselves. 

If the prophet is truly not to be concerned with the response, then this is my point of failure.  I am very sensitive to what I preceive as my failure to persuade...  even though in the NT the heart preparation and response would be job of the Holy Spirit, not the prophet...  

People have told me that I am only responsible for delivering the message when I believe God lays one on my heart, and That I am not responsible for the response. 

But somehow, I still wonder if I did something wrong.  It is terrible to think that I might be the cause of something going wrong in the Kingdom if I fail...   But it is comforting to know that I tried, and won't carry that blood on my shoulders.

The pastor that discipled me when I came back to Christ as an adult believed in and encouraged those who showed promise with this gift.  He profited by surrounding himself with those who had this gift as well as those with the gifts of discernemnt and intercession. 

But in my current church, there is not a lot of support for the practice of these gifts.    

Practising the gift became painful, so I started avoiding the use of it, and trying to bury it.  But like the parable of the talents, that is not what God would have me do with what he gave me...  so now I want to get help developing the proper understanding and practice of the gifts about which I speak.  I know that the use of these gifts is like the use of a muscle - the more we use them, the stronger we get. 

Are there any really good web sites where somebody could learn more about this gift without ending up in a loony bin?  I tend to be cautious around people who claim to have this gift, and have not met any local church leaders recently who want to work with or help me develop this gift. 

Kind of a shame, really, since the Pattern favored by God is for Kings and Preists to consult with the prophets...   

 

e4God · Jul 8, 2002

BTW:

Thunderchild, I like your sig line

The truth is out there? Where is "out there"?

The truth lived, died and rose again to live and reign in the hearts of believers, therefore, the truth is within, even as Christ said, the Kingdom is within....

This is not the new age "The answer is in you" crud, but is the Christian, "Christ in you, and through you, shall reveal all truth, as you are able to understand it"...

Thus we pray for wisdom so we can understand all truth...

Brian45 · Jul 8, 2002

Originally posted by e4God
Brian:  I will assume your post was made in love.

 

I know that Scripture says to judge prophets by the truth of their prophecy.  If the prophecy is false, even once, the prophet is not a true prophet.  The scriptural support for this, and application, is in regard to foretelling, not forthtelling.  However, with regard to forthtelling, Consider this: 

Jesus told a story about the wheat and the tares...  Tares are a weed that looks just like wheat until it is mature and goes to seed (bears fruit).  Jesus said that believers should leave the tares until the end.  His story says we are not the final judge.  The implication is that we cannot tell the difference correctly, and that we may end up being  surprised about who actually gets into heaven and who does not. 

By this story I gather that none of us are in a position to make the judgement you promised to make, except in the case of foretelling, which most believers is not a gift for today. 

All teachers are supposed to be able to rightly divide the word.  On the other hand, prophecy in the form of application, or counseling, by the use of scripture along with words of knowledge and wisdom, is to be judged on the last day, by its fruit, by God, not man, with Christ as mediator. 

Does anybody believe that there are prophets today who can predict the future, in our present church age?  Did Christ give the teaching about judging prophets, or was it one of the disciples?  Was he speaking about dead prophets?  Was this teaching given in a particular tense that would inform us as to its meaning and application in time?  Does anybody know?

 

Hi e4god  .  I offten visit a friend in a mental institution ,  and most of the people I meet in these places offten talk about God and satan  ,  one woman told me she is going to have jesus christs baby ,  another guy told me he was king of the vampires ,  so when I hear people making claims of this or that  ,  I have to question their claim .

There are people on this forum who have claimed that God has spoken to them  ,  do you understand where I'm coming from ?

So if you are making a claim that you have a gift of prophecy ,  then I must ask you to prove it  .

e4God · Jul 8, 2002

Hello Brian:

I understand your position. But you are not presently at the mental institution...  So perhaps the context could be taken into account?

With the kind of ministry you have to the mentally ill, one may need to guard against hardening of the heart, and cynicism about claims to holiness or giftedness, as these can be occupational hazards. 

Technically, you and I are Christ, so if one addled brother or sister shares this out loud, he or she probably needs grace, and medication, more than a rebuke

Did you notice that I did prophesy to you by sharing appropriate scripture into the situation. 

BTW: A real prophet has nothing to prove, (IMHO) though (by models given in scripture, is free to enage in contests of proof (As Aaron or Elijah did, or to refuse to engage (as Job and Christ did).

Jesus himself forbade the disciples from attacking the "one who is not among us but is proclaiming the gospel and working miracles". Jesus said, he who is not against us, he is with us (I paraphrase). 

By this scripture, It is my clear belief that God says it is up to the doubter to prove the prophet false, and that we should be careful about doubting!  In other texts, it is made clear that it is up to every believer to learn enough of the WORD to expose a false prophet, by testing what they say and do against scripture, as well as by observing the fruit of the prophecy.

Even so, this may not prove anything within a timeframe that is understood by a man.

IN EXAMPLE:

Jonah K N E W that the people of Nineveh would think him a liar if God repented of his plan to destroy the city... And Jonah even pleaded with God to follow through with his plan. But God decided not to destroy the city, since they all repented and came to know HIM after Johah prophosied as God directed him to prophecy.

The city was not destroyed.... So it appeared that Jonah was wrong, when in fact the fruit was a Godly repentance and salvation for an entire nation that turned toward God for many generations.

Did that make Jonah a liar or false prohpet?

No - because of the fruit, we know that he was a true prophet. Then, because of the eventual truth of his prophesy...

Actually, God did follow through and destroy Ninevah, many generations later, when the people of this city turned away from Him and went back to idol worship and sin as a way of life. I think that destruction is even recorded in historical works...

So... there you have it. We are probably not qualified to judge, but should test against scripture and should evaluate fruit....

By their fruits you shall know them? Eh ? 

We can test the spirits, by asking if Jesus is Lord.  Scripture says that no man can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the power of the Holy Spirit!

Jesus Is Lord !  Master, Savior, and Lord of All !  One Righteous who offers us His own righteousness.  Hallelujia !

Brian45 · Jul 9, 2002

Hi e4god . If you won't show me what you can do with your special gift of prophecy , could you at least pull a rabbit out of a hat for me , ha ha

e4God · Jul 10, 2002

Brian:

I was making a serious inquiry into people's thoughts about the gift of prophecy.

The last post stikes me as insensitive and off topic. Looks like flame bait to me. This would not fit the call to have Love for one another.

Some of the posts were on target and helpful, and I hope we can continue this conversation in that vein.

Can anybody else help me with my questions about the gift of Prophecy, how to best deal with the burden of pain and rejection that comes with it, and how to best practice that gift in the local church body?

The Spiritual Gift Of Prophecy - is it really a gift?

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