Does God know/see the future?
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errrrrrrrrrrrr...................
i'm not even going to touch what was said after the following comment:
"A person 'chooses' to go to hell, in the same way that a person 'chooses' to be tortured and killed for refusing to submit to the will of an evil tyrant."
Evil tyrant? Why? If God created you, and knows whats best for you...why do you hate him if you deny him and things do not go your way? If you were a child, and ran into the road to spite your parents, would you hate them because you got hit by a car?
Hell is not a torture chamber. it is absence from the love and joy and purpose that God has for you. An absence that you yourself chose.
i'm not even going to touch what was said after the following comment:
"A person 'chooses' to go to hell, in the same way that a person 'chooses' to be tortured and killed for refusing to submit to the will of an evil tyrant."
Evil tyrant? Why? If God created you, and knows whats best for you...why do you hate him if you deny him and things do not go your way? If you were a child, and ran into the road to spite your parents, would you hate them because you got hit by a car?
Hell is not a torture chamber. it is absence from the love and joy and purpose that God has for you. An absence that you yourself chose.
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There comes a time when there is no dust to knock off. His house is immaculate so all you do is bring your dust to him.
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Why is God an evil tyrant? I dont know, I didnt write the Bible.
If my parents were omniscient and omnipotent, and they did nothing to help me.. I wouldn't be very happy with them.
The Bible disagrees with you.
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The bible in no place shows God as being an "evil tyrant". Just, yes. Evil? No. God loves everyone. He loves you. He created you for a purpose. He created you in love. He does not want you to reject His love. His purpose in dying was so that you could be perfect, and all that he wants you to be, even tho you have chosen to sin.
You would be unhappy with your parents if you chose to run out in front of a car after they had just forbidden it? Do you want God to make you believe? Do you want Him to force you to obey? God respects you enough to allow you to make your own choices, and if need be, suffering the consequences. I hope that you will soften your heart, and speak to the God who loves you before it is too late.
It doesn't actually. The language is symbolic. We just miss it, because we didn't live in first century Palestine.
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You're right, it doesn't say that exactly. But, that's the conclusion I've come to by reading about his nature and his actions.
If they knew that I would run out into the street anyway, and they were capable of stopping it, and they did nothing, I'd be upset with them. Id be even more upset with them if they completely abandoned me for making a mistake, like the biblical God does. But, human parents aren't omniscient and omnipotent like God, and good parents would never abandon their children.
Maybe the fire and brimstone part is symbolic, but I don't think the part about Hell being a place of eternal torment and suffering is supposed to be symbolic.
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yo! it seems to me that this conversation/debate is about free-will vs. predestination. Am i wrong? well, operating under this assumption...
Okay, first of all... God does NOT allow us to choose our own destiny; we do NOT have free will. Here's scripture and a little essay to back that up:
Romans 9:16, 18 - It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.... Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. (Cross-ref. Ex. 33:19)
Romans 9:16 is very clear, it states very plainly that God's decision on whom He chooses to have mercy on (the elect) depends only upon Him, and not upon 'man's desire or effort' (NIV). I.e. God's election depends only upon God's choice and not upon any choices foreseen made by men. In the passage from Ephesians I highlighted verse 8. It shows that Arminians are correct in saying that we are saved through believing, not because we believe. Faith is not a work. But they miss what else this verse says. This faith that we are saved through is not something of ourselves, we don't produce it, this faith is a gift from God. Men are passive, refusing to believe and have the faith required, until they are made alive and renewed by the Holy Spirit (1Cor 2:14; Rom 8:7; Eph 2:5) 1Cor 2:14 says: "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."(NASB) When they are renewed by the Holy Spirit, they are enabled to answer, ie made free to respond. (John 6:37, 5:25; Ezek 36:27) In John 6:37 Jesus says: "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."(NASB)
I hope this helps...
God bless y'all!
In HIS service,
Chelsea
Okay, first of all... God does NOT allow us to choose our own destiny; we do NOT have free will. Here's scripture and a little essay to back that up:
Romans 9:16, 18 - It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.... Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. (Cross-ref. Ex. 33:19)
Romans 9:16 is very clear, it states very plainly that God's decision on whom He chooses to have mercy on (the elect) depends only upon Him, and not upon 'man's desire or effort' (NIV). I.e. God's election depends only upon God's choice and not upon any choices foreseen made by men. In the passage from Ephesians I highlighted verse 8. It shows that Arminians are correct in saying that we are saved through believing, not because we believe. Faith is not a work. But they miss what else this verse says. This faith that we are saved through is not something of ourselves, we don't produce it, this faith is a gift from God. Men are passive, refusing to believe and have the faith required, until they are made alive and renewed by the Holy Spirit (1Cor 2:14; Rom 8:7; Eph 2:5) 1Cor 2:14 says: "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."(NASB) When they are renewed by the Holy Spirit, they are enabled to answer, ie made free to respond. (John 6:37, 5:25; Ezek 36:27) In John 6:37 Jesus says: "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."(NASB)
I hope this helps...
God bless y'all!In HIS service,
Chelsea
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Hi Servant,
The debate that Doc, S0ul and I are engaged in is: If God knows the future, why does he create those that are destined for hell.
Now, you hold to a calvinsitc view point, which I do not. That would mean that God creates people for the sole purpose of sending them to hell, and then blames them for not choosing him all thru scripture. I feel very strongly that this is not what is taught at all. It would make God a liar.
God is soverign, but there is a balance betweens God's soverignity and man's free will. we do have free will, as its clearly taught in scripture. as a matter of fact, if there was no free will, why even HAVE scripture?
The debate that Doc, S0ul and I are engaged in is: If God knows the future, why does he create those that are destined for hell.
Now, you hold to a calvinsitc view point, which I do not. That would mean that God creates people for the sole purpose of sending them to hell, and then blames them for not choosing him all thru scripture. I feel very strongly that this is not what is taught at all. It would make God a liar.
God is soverign, but there is a balance betweens God's soverignity and man's free will. we do have free will, as its clearly taught in scripture. as a matter of fact, if there was no free will, why even HAVE scripture?
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Then why doesn't He create everyone to choose heaven?
I am not talking about Him forcing anything. Why couldn't God have created a universe where everybody freely chooses heaven?
It is illogical to think we have free will with a all-powerful, all-knowing deity in charge.
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How can men who are spiritually dead in their sins, spiritually prefer and choose holiness? Only by God's calling.
The question must be asked, "Why should God save anyman?" Why did God choose Jacob and not Esau? Why Mary not someone else? HE is Holy,and His choices are righteous, pure, and merciful. "[HE] has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.One of you will say to me:"then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk bback to God? "Shall waht is formed say to him who formed it,'Why did you make me like this;" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for commen use?" (Romans 9:18-21) Can u refute this scripture? God is merciful, yes, but he is also just. Due to the fall, all mankind is naturally eternally seperated from God. No, he is not willing that any one should perish, but it is all a part of his plan. What is his plan? HIS GLORY. Everything he does is for HIS own glory. His plan is perfect. We have to trust that. We have to trust HIS perfect Word that he gave us.
I am only saying that which Scripture is saying. I dont want to seem impertinent, but when i see scripture clearly dictate one thing, what else could i do but stand up for it!!
Please, if there is scriptural back-up, show me where i am in error.
Thank you for your time!
In HIS service,
Chelsea
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one other quick question: if God is omniscient, omnipresent, and perfectly sovereign, and in control of everything, how does free will fit in? How can there be free-will where there is a totally sovereign God ruling? Why did God choose Moses not Aaron to lead? Why Joshua? "in order that God's purpose in election might stand" (Romans 9:11)
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We don't have any alternative anyway. God created us as we are, knowing full well what choices we were going to make. If an alternative is needed, then why didn't He create everyone to choose heaven except for one person?
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********
There were five wise and five foolish ALL sleeping! ALL??? No atheist seen here.Then outside of Israel were another class? Perhaps some of these thought that they were doing there 'own' atheist thing?? Eph. 6:12 But that in NEVER the case! Gen.4:7
Then, the Master tells us ones living JUST before He comes,
that the COLD class have more hope than the Lukewarm.
Pastor N.B.
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The alternative would still be there, but no one would choose it. If suddenly every person who has 'chosen' hell vanished from existence, would that negate your freewill?
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Why didn't, why didn't, why didn't....
Why do you choose anything? Because that is the way you wanted to do it.
Well I for one am not in the position to say God should follow rules of humanity just like a child doesn't make rules for their parents. They may think the parent is wrong, but to be honest, it doesn't matter.
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If, if, if....
You are trying to speak in hypotheticals that don't exist.
Okay, example:
You have two choices. An infinite amount of money and control of the world or eternal happiness.
What do you choose?
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