Romans 8:17 PROVES Jesus is NOT God!

edpobre · Dec 20, 2001

Friends,

Apostle Paul wrote that God SENT his son to REDEEM those under the law that they may receive adoption as sons (Gal. 4:4-5). Thus, one who has been REDEEMED by the blood of Christ by BECOMING a member of the TRUE church of Christ (Iglesia Ni Cristo in these last days), has been ADOPTED as son of God and IF a SON, an HEIR of God THROUGH Christ (Gal. 4:7).

To those who believe that Christ is God, let me ask you. Why did apostle Paul write in Romans 8:17 that as ADOPTED children of God, members of the TRUE church of Christ are HEIRS and JOINT-HEIRS with Christ?

If Christ is GOD, does he have to an HEIR of himself? Any RATIONAL or SANE person out there would definitely say NO!

Apostle Paul was correct in saying that ADOPTED children of Christ are JOINT-HEIRS with Christ because Christ is BROTHER to them and God is FATHER to Christ and to them (John 20:17).

Romans 8:17 PROVES that Jesus is a MAN like us. Thus, anyone who says that we are CHILDREN of Jesus is a FALSE teacher and will only lead us to certain destruction.

Ed

Blackhawk · Dec 20, 2001

The whole Bible proves that Jesus is God.

BlalronResurrected · Dec 20, 2001

Let's look at your argument:

Apostle Paul wrote that God SENT his son to REDEEM those under the law that they may receive adoption as sons (Gal. 4:4-5).

Ok, I agree with that.

Thus, one who has been REDEEMED by the blood of Christ by BECOMING a member of the TRUE church of Christ (Iglesia Ni Cristo in these last days)

"Thus" what? You are making assumptions with no proof. Nowhere in that verse that you quoted, or anywhere else in the Bible, does it say that you have to be a member of your church to be redeemed by the blood of Christ! NOWHERE!

has been ADOPTED as son of God and IF a SON, an HEIR of God THROUGH Christ (Gal. 4:7).

Ok.

To those who believe that Christ is God, let me ask you. Why did apostle Paul write in Romans 8:17 that as ADOPTED children of God, members of the TRUE church of Christ

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

I don't see anything about a "TRUE" Church in there, do you?

How do you become a child of God? The answer is very simple.

Galations 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

If Christ is GOD, does he have to an HEIR of himself? Any RATIONAL or SANE person out there would definitely say NO!

He is an heir to the Father, who is also God.

Apostle Paul was correct in saying that ADOPTED children of Christ are JOINT-HEIRS with Christ because Christ is BROTHER to them

It doesn't say that he is a brother to them.

and God is FATHER to Christ and to them (John 10:17).

You really don't understand that Father and Son are titles, do you?

Romans 8:17 PROVES that Jesus is a MAN like us.

Jesus is a man like us, except he is also God.

Thus, anyone who says that we are CHILDREN of Jesus is a FALSE teacher and will only lead us to certain destruction.

Nope.

edpobre · Dec 20, 2001

Blackhaw,

Does that mean that the "whole Bible" does NOT include John 8:40; John 17:3; Romans 8:17; Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5; and 1 Cor. 8:6 among others?

Honestly Blackhaw, what do you say about Romans 8:17? If apostle Paul knew that Jesus is God, why did he say Chtistians are "JOINT-HEIRS" with Christ? Doesn't this tell you that Christ is NOT God because he stands to INHERIT God's promises too?

Why are adopted children called "HEIRS" of God and "JOINT-HEIRS" with Christ? What are God's promises that they are supposed to INHERIT? And from whom are they going to INHERIT these promises of God? To WHOM did God GIVE these PROMISES that adoted sons and Christ would INHERIT?

Ed

BlalronResurrected · Dec 20, 2001

Does that mean that the "whole Bible" does NOT include John 8:40; John 17:3; Romans 8:17; Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5; and 1 Cor. 8:6 among others?

Yes, they include those verses. The Trinity doctrine fully accepts them as true when taken into context.

Honestly Blackhaw, what do you say about Romans 8:17? If apostle Paul knew that Jesus is God, why did he say Chtistians are "JOINT-HEIRS" with Christ? Doesn't this tell you that Christ is NOT God because he stands to INHERIT God's promises too?

God can inherit his own promises if He wants to.

Psalms 110:1 "The Lord said unto my Lord. Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

Why are adopted children called "HEIRS" of God and "JOINT-HEIRS" with Christ?

Maybe because they are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ?

What are God's promises that they are supposed to INHERIT?

Eternal life.

And from whom are they going to INHERIT these promises of God?

From God.

To WHOM did God GIVE these PROMISES that adoted sons and Christ would INHERIT?

To the Son, that he would be declared King of Kings and Lord of Lords. In that way, he is an heir.

To the rest, who believe on the Son, they get eternal life.

In that way, both the Son and his believers are heirs.

LouisBooth · Dec 20, 2001

"To those who believe that Christ is God, let me ask you. Why did apostle Paul write in Romans 8:17 that as ADOPTED children of God, members of the TRUE church of Christ are HEIRS and JOINT-HEIRS with Christ? "

Wow, that's easy, Because by Christ was have the recoinciling to God, through his blood. We have that kingdom. We are part of the kingdome of God, just as Christ is. See romans 8:29. Does this mean Jesus is NOT God? Not at all. Just means we are made rightous though Christ.

edpobre · Dec 22, 2001

Blalron,

In Matt. 7:26, Jesus said: "Now everyone who HEARS these sayings of mine, and does not do them, will be like a FOOLISH man who built his house on sand."

Your replies to my post once again prove that Jesus is right.

I wrote: oes that mean that the "whole Bible" does NOT include John 8:40; John 17:3; Romans 8:17; Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5; and 1 Cor. 8:6 among others?

You wrote:Yes, they include those verses. The Trinity doctrine fully accepts them as true when taken into context.

Who determines CONTEXT Blalron? Suppose a Baptist says "this is the CONTEXT within which this verse was written" but a Seventh Day Adventist says otrherwise, who settles the issue?

I wrote: Honestly Blackhaw, what do you say about Romans 8:17? If apostle Paul knew that Jesus is God, why did he say Chtistians are "JOINT-HEIRS" with Christ? Doesn't this tell you that Christ is NOT God because he stands to INHERIT God's promises too?

You wrote:God can inherit his own promises if He wants to. Psalms 110:1 "The Lord said unto my Lord. Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

Honestly Blalron, do you really think this is a WISE answer? Do you honestly believe that God would promise something to himself, then inherit his OWN promises, if he wants to?

And you think this what God promised that TRUE believers will INHERIT with Christ? If Christ were God, why would he need God to make his enemies his footstool? Can he not do this by himself if it's true that he were God?

I wrote: Why are adopted children called "HEIRS" of God and "JOINT-HEIRS" with Christ?

You wrote:Maybe because they are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ?

Do you honestly think this is a WISE answer Blalron? Can't you think of something better?

I wrote: What are God's promises that they are supposed to INHERIT?

You wrote:Eternal life.

Earlier you wrote that the promise that God made to himself is to make him sit at his right until he makes his enemies his footstool.

I wrote: And from whom are they going to INHERIT these promises of God?

You wrote:From God.

If Jesus were God, why would God promise him eternal life?

I wrote: To WHOM did God GIVE these PROMISES that adoted sons and Christ would INHERIT?

You wrote:To the Son, that he would be declared King of Kings and Lord of Lords. In that way, he is an heir.

To the rest, who believe on the Son, they get eternal life.

In that way, both the Son and his believers are heirs.

You don't know what you are talking about Blalron and you think you can fool people into believing your LIE. Gal. 3:29 tells us that the promise was given to Abraham and his SEED (Gen. 17:7) and that SEED is Christ (Gal. 3:16).

Thus, Christ is the HEIR of that promise of ETERNAL LIFE.

People who BECOME sons of God THROUGH faith in Christ (Gal. 3:26) and are BAPTIZED into Christ (Gal. 3:27), are ONE in Christ (Gal. 3:2

and CO-HEIRS with Christ according to the promise (Gal. 3:29).

Humble yourself my friend so you can see with your eyes and hear with your ears. Your LYING can only lead you to destruction and that's a FACT.

Ed

LouisBooth · Dec 24, 2001

"In Matt. 7:26, Jesus said: "Now everyone who HEARS these sayings of mine, and does not do them, will be like a FOOLISH man who built his house on sand.""

That's right ed, stop building your house on the sand

"Who determines CONTEXT Blalron? "

The context is first the surrounding passage (which you always leave out) the whole book then the whole bible (you always leave these out too).
It is best to go to the greek or hebrew first also.

"Do you honestly believe that God would promise something to himself, then inherit his OWN promises, if he wants to? "

Umm..there are many sections of the bible that is says the father gave things to the son. This is because of the example the Son shows us. It is clearly said in Phil 2:5-8. He gave up EVERYTHING. So to get it back he had to be given it.

Thunderchild · Dec 28, 2001

Ah... until I saw that "God can inherit his own promises if he wants", I had absolutely no idea how this verse could be said to "prove" anything about the nature of Jesus.

It would be nice sometimes if people would interpret passages with (some might say) "iffy" inferences in the light of those which do not, instead of the other way around.

Somewhere it is written that Jesus "Being in very nature, God, did not count it robbery to be made for a little time lower than the angels." The argument that God would not inherit his own promises is therefore somewhat specious - the Bible states flatly that Jesus was God made man. Ummm.... Perhaps the man Jesus inherits (no, I'm not going there)

WWJD777 · Dec 28, 2001

How can you say this? Are you really a Saved one who has stumbled, or are you a lost soul. If you are the latter, how could you claim to know anything of the gospel. I will adress this grave mistake. First I most say, I am a logical thinker, and most logical thinking makes sense, however, I was stumbed. Then I realized that you couldn't of had any kind of theological back round, or have been a CHristian for that matter, to not understand the many words used for Christians. If you read anywhere in the Bible, you will find that Christians are the children of God, the Sheep, and so on and so forth. The verse says that as children of the Father we most "bare the cross he carries" so to speak. When he says we are "Joint_heirs" Paul is trying to explain in laimens terms to the Romans, that as His Children, we most do as Christ did, and obey Him. I suggest, and this is not a threat, that you think before you say foolish things. From what I hear, you seem to be a crusader. Trying to convinse the foolish Zealots to come to our senses. You undoubtedlly think that we are fools, and we have no foundation for your beliefs. Get some. But, if you want to talk about anything else, post something, or e-mail.

LouisBooth · Dec 29, 2001

Pastor look at the context of what you are inheriting in that verse for the answer. Its inheriting the spirit of God, which Christ had

as do we. Look at verse 9.

epobre · Jan 2, 2002

LouisBooth,

You wrote:

Pastor look at the context of what you are inheriting in that verse for the answer. Its inheriting the spirit of God, which Christ had as do we. Look at verse 9.

Read the following my dear friend and be knowledgeable since you are fond of opening your mouth:

Gal. 3:16; Gen. 17:7
Titus 3:7
Eph. 1:11-14

Ed

LouisBooth · Jan 4, 2002

Gal 3:16- If you look at Verse 14 it is made clear

Gen 17:7-umm..this only proves my point..
"Titus 3:7" YOu seemed to have missed verse 6..THROUGH CHRIST?

"Eph. 1:11-14" This also proves my point..did you miss the in him and through him statements?

MikeMcK · Oct 13, 2003

leecappella · Oct 15, 2003

Blackhawk said:
The whole Bible proves that Jesus is God.

me: If this is true, why does Jesus tell a man, "Why do you call me good. There is none good but God"? Does this make sense if they are one and the same? It might, but explain.

Der Alte · Oct 15, 2003

leecappella said:
me: If this is true, why does Jesus tell a man, "Why do you call me good. There is none good but God"? Does this make sense if they are one and the same? It might, but explain.

He did NOT deny that He was good and He did NOT deny that He was God. In order to clearly show that Jesus was not God, this sentence should continue "Why do you call me good. There is none good but God"? Therefore since I am not God, I cannot be good."

dsa · Oct 15, 2003

Lee's argument is definitely reasonable, if one attempts to interpret the scriptures in an unbiased way. The problem is, so many people who are taught certain doctrine read what they want to, and ignore what would be obvious to others not sharing those beliefs.

In addition to the verse Lee references, remember that Jesus didn't "consider equality with God something to be grasped." If Jesus himself wouldn't, why would we? I don't necessarily believe that Jesus was not God, I'm just trying to present it as a Biblical possibility.

leecappella · Oct 16, 2003

Matthew 19:17 - And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mr 10:18 - And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

me: The possibility of Jesus not being God is possible. If Jesus were God, I would think He would see Himself as good as God is good. Jesus says there is only one that is good: God.

MikeMcK · Oct 16, 2003

leecappella said:
Matthew 19:17 - And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mr 10:18 - And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

me: The possibility of Jesus not being God is possible. If Jesus were God, I would think He would see Himself as good as God is good. Jesus says there is only one that is good: God.

This is the argument that He was making: If you call Me good and you ackowledge that the only one who is good is God, then you must be willing to acknowledge that I am God.

Der Alte · Oct 16, 2003

dsa said:
Lee's argument is definitely reasonable, if one attempts to interpret the scriptures in an unbiased way. The problem is, so many people who are taught certain doctrine read what they want to, and ignore what would be obvious to others not sharing those beliefs.

In addition to the verse Lee references, remember that Jesus didn't "consider equality with God something to be grasped." If Jesus himself wouldn't, why would we? I don't necessarily believe that Jesus was not God, I'm just trying to present it as a Biblical possibility.

So is my argument unreasonable? If one attempts to interpret the scriptures in an unbiased way one does not make assumptions. I answered those assumptions. Also I have studied my faith at the post graduate level and my beliefs and my doctrines conform to the record of the faith and practice of the early church. Unlike so many people who are followers of sects which came into existence in the mid to late 19th century, or later.

"In addition to the verse Lee references, remember that Jesus didn't "consider equality with God something to be grasped." If Jesus himself wouldn't, why would we?" I'm not sure what you are arguing here. That passage continues that Jesus humbled Himself but He was returned to His previous glory.

Romans 8:17 PROVES Jesus is NOT God!

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