Psalm 22.3 - From 'Holy Spirit'

This is continuing from the thread Holy Spirit here in Men's Corner.

Originally posted by psalms 22.3
SCJ, you say you cant see god that way from the bibles standpoint, i truely disagree.

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I have already explained a great deal on my own, that's why I left a great deal out of my post above...it does no good to talk in circles about things, my points are stated and so are yours...others can read them and make their own conclusions. I do want to stress this in this additional post though: I am a minister, I am not a Bible scholar...but I can say that a great deal of my life has been involved in study of the Bible directly and in those Biblical scholars writings.

The things (not all of them) that you have supposed greatly trouble me and I will list them here so we can restate for brevity's sake:

1. God is not Omnipresent (This is in accordance with Merriam-Webster's definition and a Bible Dictionary) You state that you agree with the definition being Omnipresent yet you make the personal assumption that God is not like that.

2. God in not Omniscient: You thought your statement that God is not Omniscient was humorous for some reason, I did not see it this way...I think satan would think it was humorous too. Yet, you said you will not explain why you don't think that God is Omniscient right now...but that YOU can explain it.

3. Man is fully capable of being in the presence of God the FATHER while still being in his sinful state. You state this is Biblical by the three verses that you pulled out, your only comments to my telling you that the Bible has to be taken in context, 'in totality', is that they are my personal beliefs and that my personal beliefs do not make the suppositions right.

4. The Holy Spirit is a physical entity/person that can be seen with human eyes. This flies in the face of all Biblical teaching.

I have gone through my materials in an effort to find not only the simplest and briefest explanation for these points but one which points all the biblical contexts. This is because I really do want you to understand the importance of taking the Bible in context and not speaking out on things that you haven't taken into context.

Yes, I speak with boldness. I do realize that my responses to you have been done with haste and with bluntness. Do you really think that any other type of delivery would have gotten your attention? I am secure in my RELATIONSHIP with my Savior and with the time that I have submitted to studying his word in supplication to the Spirit within me, I sincerely want you to be secure in your relationship in the same manner...to devote time to study and not to arguement which is designed to make you different from other believers (which is your self-proclaimed goal).

Now, since I want to respond to each of the things I have listed, I will do so with each in a separate reply within this post.

Originally posted by SCJ
3. Man is fully capable of being in the presence of God the FATHER while still being in his sinful state. You state this is Biblical by the three verses that you pulled out, your only comments to my telling you that the Bible has to be taken in context, 'in totality', is that they are my personal beliefs and that my personal beliefs do not make the suppositions right.

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I actually want to deal with #3 first and go back to the others.

First off, we are talking about Glory, unapproachable (without the atoning presence of Jesus Christ) light. God the Father has always been this way, Jesus exists in and because of the Father's Glory however Jesus is how (since time began) we can be reconciled to the Father.

I have the apostle Paul’s attitude when he described the glorified Jesus to the young evangelist Timothy? “. . . [Christ] is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power . . .” (1 Timothy 6:15-16).

Paul here speaks directly of Christ as He is now (after the Resurrection), in all of His glory (verses 14-15), but the same description applies to God the Father as well, and always has.

Karen Armstrong, in her book 'History of God' says this: "God was a somewhat shadowy figure, defined in intellectual abstractions rather than images." This term 'shadowy' does not mean 'in darkness' because God is Light that is unapproachable...it speaking purely of God the Father, whom ONLY Jesus has seen.

Now Psalm, if I can reveal only one thing to you (and this in no extra-Biblical theological revelation) it's this: One of the most fundamental principles to keep in mind regarding proper understanding of God’s Word is simply this: The Bible interprets the Bible. We often must look elsewhere in the Scriptures to see more light regarding the meaning of a particular passage. The New Testament sheds much light on the Old, and vice versa.

Now let me simply state this, I think you are aware of the relationship between God the Father and Jesus Christ. If you don't agree then let me know, because that is for another thread. Jesus is the Creator and all things were created through Him. But real quick let me reveal this to you...

In John 1:14 we read that the Word, Jesus Christ, “became flesh and dwelt among us . . . as of the only begotten of the Father . . .” The Greek word monogenees, translated “only begotten” in this verse and verse 18, confirms this relationship between God the Father and the one who became Jesus Christ. Now, in the Old Testament we know that David was a Prophet...in one of David's own Psalms he said, “The LORD said unto my Lord, ‘Sit at my right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool’” (Psalm 110:1). Says The New Bible Commentary: Revised: “Note the striking description of Jesus as our Lord. It corresponds here to the thought of Psalm 110:1, in which David called Him, ‘My Lord’” (1970, p. 1203).

In this remarkable psalm the Father is talking to the Son in prophetic vision—“The LORD said to my [David’s] Lord . . .” Then, about 1,000 years later, the apostle Peter confirms the identity of these two Beings: “For David did not ascend into the heavens [He awaits the resurrection], but he says himself: ‘The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool”’” (Acts 2:34-35).

Remember this important rule for biblical understanding: Check the context. Verse 36 identifies these two Beings: “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God [the Father] has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” How clear can you be?!? These crucial passages—both in Psalm 110 and Acts 2— are talking prophetically about two members of the Godhead: the Father and the Son.

Now that I have explained that as best I can (please let me know if you want to take it to a new in-depth thread?) Let address the main issue at hand. You state that God the Father is seen physically many times throughout the OT but that normally He just resides in Heaven only...and not everywhere at once. I think one of the most striking visions of God the Father is not any that you have yet mentioned, but was given to Daniel. Although God is spirit (John 4:24), which is normally invisible to the human eye (Colossians 1:15), the prophet was permitted to see these two Beings in his mind. As the apostle John would several centuries later, Daniel received a vision of events on the spirit plane.

In this vision (likes John's later visions which were very similar) Daniel sees God the Father and God the Son. This is the understanding of the Godhead, because we do not worship two Gods...the Bible is clear on this, they are one in the same. The Bible makes it abundantly clear there is only one God. Jesus quotes Moses in saying, “Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one” (Mark 12:29; compare Deuteronomy 6:4). Paul tells us that “there is no God but one” (1 Corinthians 8:4) and that “there is one God” (1 Timothy 2:5).

The Bible also tells us that all other supposed gods are idols— figments of man’s own imagination gone awry. Throughout history man has created many false gods. It is with this contrast in mind that we should approach Deuteronomy 6:4—“the LORD is one.”

Now, you spoke many times of God speaking with Moses, I explained that the personal interaction between God and Man in the OT is testament of Jesus, the future Messiah, who has existed from the beginning. Jesus is the Word (John 1:1). That same Word was also the Being who spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai. This was hundreds of years after the days of Abraham. “And God spoke to Moses and said to him: ‘I am the LORD. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name LORD [Hebrew YHWH, or the more common term Yahweh] I was not known to them’” (Exodus 6:2-3).

We should note here that on occasion the biblical expression “LORD” refers to the Father rather than the Word. The context helps us understand which of Them is being discussed.

Jesus Himself later explained this to astonished Pharisees: “While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, saying, ‘What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?’ They said to Him, ‘The Son of David.’ He said to them, ‘How then does David in the Spirit call Him “Lord,” saying: “The LORD said to my Lord, ‘Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool’”? If David then calls Him “Lord,” how is He his Son?’ And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore” (Matthew 22:41-46).

Now, let's look closer at the interation between God and Moses -The Creator’s reply to Moses: “And God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM.’ And He [God] said, ‘Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you’” (Exodus 3:14).

YHWH, or Yahweh (translated “LORD” in many versions of the Old Testament), conveys a similar meaning. It implies eternal, self-inherent existence (compare John 5:26). No one created Him. Understand that God has many names in Scripture, each of which tells us something about His wonderful, divine nature and character.

Continuing with the Exodus account: “And He said, ‘Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, “I AM has sent me to you” . . . This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations’”  (Exodus 3:14-15).

Again, Christ is the “I AM” of the Bible. He was the guiding Rock who was with the children of Israel in the wilderness (Deuteronomy 32:4). Paul wrote: “Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ” (1 Corinthians 10:1-4).

The I AM of the Old Testament is further described as abounding in “goodness and truth” (Exodus 34:6). Similarly, the New Testament tells us that Jesus was “full of grace and truth” (John 1:14). Jesus Christ is “the same yesterday, today, and forever” (Hebrews 13:8).

So, and this is important Psalm because it's what I have been trying to explain to you, except for Christ, no human being has ever directly heard the actual voice of the Father or seen His form and shape (John 1:18; 5:37; 6:46; 1 John 4:12). So the YHWH, the I AM, the Word, who later became Jesus Christ, was the One who dealt directly with human beings in Old Testament times. So the Word was indeed the God of the Old Testament—and yet the Father fulfilled this role in a very real sense as well. For Christ dealt with mankind on the Father’s behalf as His Spokesman (compare John 8:28; 12:49-50).

Of course, since Jesus came to reveal the Father (Matthew 11:27), the logical conclusion is that the Father was not generally known by those in Old Testament times except for a few of the Hebrew patriarchs and prophets. King David, for example, is one who understood (Acts 2:30). Hebrews 1:1-2 states: “God, who at various times and in different ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His [or ‘a’] Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds.”

In this opening passage of the book of Hebrews the clear implication is that the Father is the moving force behind the whole Old Testament. In context, verse 2 interprets verse 1. Though God the Father is the prime mover behind the Hebrew Bible, it is through Jesus Christ that He created the entire universe.

Also, the vital principle of the Bible interpreting the Bible helps us to understand the intent of Hebrews 1:1 in the light of other scriptures. Since God made the worlds through Christ and created all things by Him (Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:16; John 1:3), He dealt with man through the agency of the preexistent Word, Christ. Remember, that Christ said "No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6) and this has been true as long as Jesus has been here...which the Bible says is forever!

So Psalm...remember this if nothing else - the Bible is not a book for speed-reading or careless skimming. Understanding its depth of meaning requires calm meditation and deep thought. Make it a habit to pause to reflect on the meaning of what you read.

Back to your account with Moses, you must really consider the Spirit world and ask yourself: Do spirit beings have form? Do they have discernible spirit bodies? Do they possess personality? Do they have faces? Do they have voices?

Can human eyes see God? Under certain protective conditions, yes, as God testified of Moses: “He sees the form of the LORD” (Numbers 12:8). Putting all the pertinent scriptures together, we see that this divine Being was the preexistent Word of John 1:1 rather than God the Father.

Unique in all Scripture, under protective measures Moses was even allowed to see the back parts of God in His glorified form (Exodus 33:18-23). However, he was not permitted to view God’s face in full glory because, since it shines as the sun in full strength, Moses would have perished on the spot (verse 20).

On another important occasion, after the giving of the Ten Commandments, Moses, Aaron, Aaron’s two sons and 70 elders of Israel “saw the God of Israel. Under His feet there was . . . a pavement of sapphire, clear blue as the very heavens” (Exodus 24:9-10, REB). Presumably in this situation, too, the preexistent Word shielded them from the full intensity of His glory.

John 1:18 should help you a lot: “No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.” Again, Christ came to reveal the Father. God can be seen, but Jesus is the only human being who has ever seen Him face to face in His full, glorified form.

A little later in John’s Gospel account, Christ said to a Samaritan woman, “. . . The hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth” (John 4:21-24). God the Father is not physical; He is spirit—yet that does not mean He is without form and shape!

Christ stated: “And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form” (John 5:37). Yet it is plainly implied from these passages in the book of John that the Father can be both seen and heard, but not by human eyes. He has been seen only by the Son (John 6:45-46) and the angelic host—plus a few human beings, including the Hebrew prophet Daniel and the apostle John, through visions.

Originally posted by SCJ
4. The Holy Spirit is a physical entity/person that can be seen with human eyes. This flies in the face of all Biblical teaching.

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Now, on the Person (physical of the Holy Spirit)...I have to go after this one but will tackle #1 and #2 later this evening. The Holy Spirit is not a physical thing that can be seen - even in visions. It can be symbolized though...that is clear. It's not an uncommon mistake though...so let's address it. First by looking at the language.

Many people assume that the Holy Spirit is a personal entity, based on references to the Spirit as “he,” “him” and “himself” in the New Testament. This confusion arises from two factors—the use of gender-inflected pronouns in the Greek language and bias on the part of some translators.

Greek, as do the Romance languages (Spanish, French, Italian, etc.), invokes a specific gender for every noun. Every object, animate or inanimate, is designated as either masculine, feminine or neuter. The gender is often unrelated to whether the item is indeed masculine or feminine. For example, in French the word livre, meaning “book,” is of the masculine gender and is referred to by a pronoun equivalent to the English “he.” And in Spanish, mesa, or “table,” is in the feminine. Clearly, although these nouns have gender, their gender does not refer to actually being male or female.

In the English language, in contrast, most nouns that do not refer to objects that are male or female are referred to in the neuter sense, with the pronoun “it.”

In Greek, both masculine and neuter words are used to refer to the Holy Spirit. The Greek word translated “Helper,” “Comforter” and “Advocate” in John 14-16 is parakletos, a masculine word in Greek and thus referred to in these chapters by Greek pronouns equivalent to the English “he,” “him,” “his,” “himself,” “who” and “whom.”

Because of the masculine gender of parakletos, these pronouns are grammatically correct in Greek. But to translate these into English as “he,” “him,” etc., is grammatically incorrect.

By the same token, you would never translate a particular French sentence as “I’m looking for my book so I can read her.” While this grammatical construction makes sense in the French language, it is wrong in English. Thus the supposition that the Holy Spirit is a person to be referred to as “he” or “him” is incorrect.

See, there is absolutely no justification for referring to the term “Holy Spirit” with masculine pronouns, even in Greek. The Greek word pneuma, usually translated “spirit” but also translated “wind” and “breath,” is a grammatically neuter word. So, in the Greek language, pronouns equivalent to the English “it,” “its,” “itself,” “which” or “that” are properly used in referring to this word for “spirit.”

So, How, then, do we define the Holy Spirit if it is not a person?Rather than describing the Holy Spirit as a distinct person or entity, the Bible most often refers to it as and connects it with God’s divine power (Zechariah 4:6; Micah 3:8).

In the New Testament, Paul referred to it as the spirit of power, love and a sound mind (2 Timothy 1:7). Informing Mary that Jesus would be supernaturally conceived in her womb, an angel told her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you . . . ,” and he defined this as “the power of the Highest,” which “will overshadow you” (Luke 1:35).

Jesus began His ministry “in the power of the Spirit” (Luke 4:14). He told His followers, “You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you” (Acts 1:8).

Peter relates that “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power” (Acts 10:38). This was the same power that enabled Christ to perform many mighty miracles during His ministry. The Holy Spirit is the very nature, presence and expression of God’s power actively working in His servants (John 14:23; 2 Peter 1:4; Galatians 2:20).

Jesus Christ worked through the apostle Paul “in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God” (Romans 15:19). Again and again the Scriptures depict the Holy Spirit as the power of God.

In its article about the Holy Spirit, The Anchor Bible Dictionary describes it as the “manifestation of divine presence and power perceptible especially in prophetic inspiration” (Vol. 3, 1992, p. 260). Peter noted that “prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:21).

Paul wrote that God’s plan for humanity had been “revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets” (Ephesians 3:5) and that his own teachings were inspired by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:13). Paul further explains that it is through His Spirit that God has revealed to true Christians the things He has prepared for those who love Him (verses 9-16). Working through the Spirit, God the Father is the revealer of truth to those who serve Him.

This Spirit is not only the Spirit of God the Father, for the Bible also calls it the “Spirit of Christ” (Romans 8:9; Philippians 1:19). By either name, it is the same Spirit, as there is only one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4). The Father imparts the same Spirit to true Christians through Christ (John 14:26; 15:26; Titus 3:5-6), leading and enabling them to be His children and “partakers of the divine nature” (Romans 8:14; 2 Peter 1:4).

In contrast to God the Father and Jesus Christ, who are consistently compared to human beings in Their form and shape, the Holy Spirit is consistently represented, by various symbols and manifestations, in a completely different manner—such as wind (Acts 2:2), fire (verse 3), water (John 4:14; 7:37-39), oil (Psalm 45:7; compare Acts 10:38; Matthew 25:1-10), a dove (Matthew 3:16) and an “earnest,” or down payment, on eternal life (2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14, KJV). These depictions are difficult to understand, to say the least, if the Holy Spirit is a person.

So, back to teh question of the original thread? Can the Holy Spirit ever be seen? We should also consider that, in visions of God’s throne recorded in the Bible, although the Father and Christ are seen, the Holy Spirit is never seen (Acts 7:55-56; Daniel 7:9-14; Revelation 4-5; 7:10).

Even in the final book of the Bible (and the last to be written), the Holy Spirit as a divine person is absent from its pages. The book describes “a new heaven and new earth” (Revelation 21:1) wherein “the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them” (verse 3). Christ, the Lamb of God, is also present (verse 22). The Holy Spirit, however, is again absent—another inexplicable oversight if this Spirit is a perceivable (as in - can be seen) member of the Godhead.

Originally posted by tom
god created man all equaly and he [GLOW=purple]is a awesome god
he is always with us in what we say and do.[/GLOW]

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Thanks Tom, I agree with you 100%. So Amen!

I responded in MSWord...but I KNOW that I will have to split this response in half...please read the entire posts since you (Psalm) obviously didn't read the earlier ones in this thread in their entirety.

If you stand and say this is right, this is not, boldly proclaiming something is a truth, and something is a lie, that is dogmatic. It isn’t a harsh word, anything to shy away from, it’s just what you are being, and I am dogmatic in many issues myself.

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I understand your position that you can quote your Bible and it backs your position. Let me be clear (again) in saying that quoting your Bible from different parts does not give the totality of the whole issue. I believe as you do that there is a God in Heaven, I am not taking that away, I just think that you are limiting it because of obscure verses when I am giving you plainly clear ones (that aren’t up to interpretation). I.E. “God is Spirit”, Jesus saying clearly, “No one has see God the Father except for me.”
These are much clearer than Moses seeing the back of God as He passed by, or someone saying ‘My God is in Heaven’. No one has said ‘My God is in Heaven only’. Now, I have to ask, did you read my posts at all or did you get upset and respond? By reading the rest of you post it looks like you just did the latter…because you are calling on me to address many of the things that I did address.

NO, I don’t think I can explain everything god is, yet I do boldly say he is what his word says he is. As the scriptures I have used lead me to believe. I do not understand every aspect of god, I do think the word is clear enough on this issue to know the truth, and understand it.

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I have agreed with you that God does have a form, I am not denying that. But you cannot take one portion of the Bible that talks about God’s form and then ignore the other parts (particularly since Jesus gives them) that God the Father is a Spirit. The form of God (on earth) is Jesus. Jesus said (and I quoted this thoroughly in my posts) that NO ONE (in His Glory) has seen the Father except for Him (Jesus) and that NO ONE can see the Father in His Glory without Him (Jesus).

NO NO NO, I DONT SAY HE ISNT OMNIPRESENT BY DEFFINITION, i disagree with your theology of the word omnipresent and your theology of its definition. i agree HE IS EVERYWHERE PRESENT, yet i do not agree his body is the same, his body is one place, at one time, yet even in this truth, he can still be present everywhere because he is present in spirit.

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There is truly a problem here then, so I need not even discuss these aspects. I gave you the theological definitions of OMNIPRESENT, both from a secular dictionary and the religious dictionary. Those ARE the definitions, I didn’t just make them up…you say they are NOT the definition of OMNIPRESENCE and that you understand it differently, well if it’s different then it IS NOT the same…see what I am saying?

NO NO NO, I DO NOT SAY HE ISNT OMNISCIENT BY DEFFINITION,
and I told you to drop this one, whether you feel I need your help or not, I don’t care to discuss it with you. If i need help in my teaching, I have my places I go, and you do respect my choice of places right? No disrespect to you.
maybe another time sorry.

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Well, I gave you the definition of OMNISCIENCE from many sources and you said they were right in their definition but that your understanding of OMNISCIENCE wasn’t the same…I have gone by the definition, and you don’t care enough to explain the difference of your definition with the Biblical one.

This all boils down to be very basics of foundations of our beliefs, the more we converse the deeper you will see our differences go, just as it led you to seeing I disagree with you on the issue of omniscience, it will many other things, if we continue in this way, discussing every new issue that arises, it could last for years I think.

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I think it has been enlightening…you seem have to become a little more upset in this post and that is troubling. I don’t use my own definition of omniscience, I use the theological definition of it…which you say isn’t true. It’s not just me you disagree with here.

I think it is funny you make a big deal out of nothing, like my style of typing, whether or not I give him a big or little g. so what? When god tells me to type that big G or he’ll get mad, then I will.

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It was a quip; I wasn’t making a big issue of it. The big issue is the understanding of God through His entire Word. Read my posts in this thread please…you undermine the importance of Jesus Christ by what you say

you say

My God (big G) is Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent. There is no 'grey area' with this issue...this is what the Bible says He is, and the Bible is ABOUT God...it's not a miniscule detail of the whole...it's the whole BOOK.

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Yes, the Bible teaches us that God the Father is all of these things and is these things by the standard theological definitions of them (the ones I quoted) but you disagree…I want to know how you disagree but you don’t care enough to tell me. None of these definitions disagrees with a single Bible verse that you have quoted yet your definition (from what I can tell of it in the action of your words) does contradict other verses in the Bible that you are not caring to recognize.

yet you also say

I can't understand what omnipresent is......"

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that really doesnt make much sense. dont you see?

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I understand perfectly what the definition of the word is; I guess my wording is bad here. I can’t comprehend what omnipresent is…. I believe I added right after this “anymore than I can understand/comprehend infinity…” That doesn’t mean that I don’t know what the definition is and what it is not. The definition is that God is everywhere (not in a humanistic way of ‘in everything’) but it is NOT that God is in Heaven and can GO anywhere.
Let me clarify and go back to the start, because your positions have changed many times over the course of this conversation (another troubling thing to me). Here is what you said early on, “god being omnipresent, does not mean GOD IS EVERYWHERE, like he stretches to the farthest corners of the universe. he is omnipresent, but he is not OMNIBODY he is not everywhere, Jesus said ...my father who IS IN HEAVON.... that clearly tells me the father is in Heavon, not everywhere or anywhere else. He is omnipresent, HIS PRESENCE can be felt everywhere. He can effect anything ANYWHERE.” Now, this is where I became confused. By the definitions above you say God is Omnipresent, but He is not Omnipresent. I believe that very statement is what started this discussion. Remember, that Jesus also said that “No one has seen the Father except for Me.” I have no issue with the fact that God the Father is in Heaven but I don’t understand godliness and deity enough to be able to say that He is only in Heaven, and Omnipresence rejects that.

It is only your ignorant naive opinion of me that i only know certain scriptures and i dont know the bible as a whole, this is your reasoning simply because I come to a diffrent conclusion than you, and that is the only basis of belief you have. Because you do not possible know me well enough to know much else.

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I didn’t say that you only ‘know’ certain scriptures, but I do think it’s obvious that you use only certain scriptures to establish your view. By using your scriptures I can certainly say that God did appear to people in the OT (and He did!) but by using all the scripture I can understand that Jesus is God and the functionality of the Hypostatic Union shows that Jesus is how God interacts personally with man, since to be seen in all the Father’s Glory is not possible for a human being except that it be a vision or an event mediated by Jesus Christ Himself.

It is a fustrated attempt to defend ones beleifs, when one says things such as another only knowing parts of scripture and not knowing the whole scripture and not showing scripture to prove it. arent the little pieces what determine the outcome of the finished work? these little peices are what determine the entire doctrine of the bible. yes we must use other scriptures to balance our beleifs, but this you have not done.

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Excuse me? The clear problem in this thread and the one it came from is that your ‘views’ conflict with the totality of Biblical teaching…mine do not, my theological views are perfectly fine with God being in Heaven, God being seen (in and through the person of Jesus Christ) in the OT, and God being Omniscient and Omnipresent…you clearly state that Omniscience and Omnipresence are relative to how you see it. I have only asked ‘how so?’ and you have said you didn’t care to answer. Instead I get cryptic remarks like God is not everywhere, but God is Omnipresent.

ive addressed ever scripture youve shown me, and it all comes down to you simply claiming and assuring me that the overall teaching is what you say it is.

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No you haven’t, sorry. You consistently quote me from Old Testament and I quote Jesus Himself. Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6) this is the plan of salvation and the way to God the Father since the BEGINNING of time. The Gospel of John tells us, “No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.” (John 1:18). Or most importantly when Jesus told us, “And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form” (John 5:37). 
You have not addressed any of this, but I want you to read my whole posts in this thread instead of getting angry and responding, because not only do I present this information to you but I address your scripture very carefully. You accuse me of not addressing your posts and that clearly shows you haven’t even read mine.

i give you a scripture proving my aregument, and you say it only a piece, and not the overall teaching, it suprises me, you are not the first baptist to tell me this, and yet you give me only a piece of scripture to try and prove your aregument.

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There is a fundamental difference. When I explain your OT references in light of the entire Bible (remember: The Bible interprets the Bible) you reject that…there isn’t a whole lot of interpreting needed however when Jesus says plain and simple at approximately 30 B.C. that, “You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form”.

but i address your peices of scripture, and you do not refute my address. you only state that they dont agree with the overall.

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You haven’t done this…that is my point. When I address your verses and then show you the context of the entire Bible (which puts yours in perspective), that is my refutation of ‘your’ view.

the overall teaching of the word is found in the persuasion of the mind of the individual.

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No it’s not. No one can understand the Word without the Holy Spirit’s guidance…not correctly anyway. Man cannot find righteousness and he will not seek it of his own. It has nothing to do with the mind of an individual…the Word is associated with the heart, and not the blood pumping one.

it is not stated in the beggining of ending of the bible as an introduction or recap. it is fine that you beleive the way you do, but as you were persuaded in your beleif, i must be in myne.

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I am confused by this…you will have to explain. You know that Genesis 1:1 is not the beginning verse (in terms of chronology) of the Bible don’t you?

i do study the bible and in depth, though no i have not yet read every book or scripture in it. i will not leave that out in an attempt to defend myself. yet i do not agree it is evidence to say i do yet understand certain issues of it.

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You just don’t seem the grasp the concept that the Old Testament is all about Jesus, and the New Testament is too, you seem to confine Jesus to the NT and that is not right.

i have been through a bible college myself.
i use a strongs concordance to study greek and hebrew also.
i pray and ask the lord for guidance also.
you are covinced you know about the subject, i am sure that i do aswell.

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And yet we disagree, I think it’s then important to find out why. But it is fruitless if you are going to modify your positions on things and give your own definitions to theological terms.

you said

There is nothing great about men who study the Bible with supplication in man's eyes...but I don't seek men's favor.

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you cannot use my disagreement with you, as confirmation of your doctrine.

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Trust me son, you have absolutely NOTHING to do with the confirmation of my relationship with Jesus Christ.

you said

You do, but you aren't using all of His word.

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you think i am not using all of the word, becuase you think i am ignoring scriptures that refute my beleif. as best i can recall, i have addressed every scripture you have shown me, and you have not refuted my address. so, how can you claim that i am not using all of his word? [/quote]
Recall a little bit better because I have given you some pretty cut and dry context that you have said nothing about…and yes I have talked about each of your addresses. I know I talked about Moses, and even added Daniel and talked about Isaiah, and I explained in detail to you, which you said nothing about.

you said

When I see that happen I move in for admonishment and correction swiftly because that is what the Word of God tells me to do.

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we are to correct using wisdom and understanding.
not bum rushing someone with our doctrine the moment we see the slightest hair misplaced in their doctrine.
in view of our weakness and feeblemindedness of  us as humans, surely theres a chance we could be wrong ourselves.

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I agree with you. But this is not ‘doctrine’ as you say…it’s the whole subject of the Bible. Actually I will agree on this, you say that you can stand in the presence of God the Father as you are…this really isn’t damaging because you will never do this (I am NOT judging your salvation here…that is wrong to do – I am saying before Judgment this just won’t happen). So you can believe that if you want to. You say the Holy Spirit is a person with a body, this is totally erroneous but fine, believe that.
What bothers me is that you don’t recognize the full glory and position of Jesus Christ and you advertise this shortcoming and actually teach it, that is what I move swiftly to counter.

Second Part...

ok, i will admit that i am diffrent than other people in doctrine, and that yes i do enjoy debating and discussing biblical issues. that i do enjoy. but i do not take joy from being unique, as if i am better as if i am better. i am not puffed up in my knowlegde.
my joy doesnt come from being diffrent and starting areguments.

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Earlier you said most ‘baptists’ and that was startling. I attend a Baptist church but I really don’t like labels like that. I know that you are Pentecostal and align with Word of Faith teachings (for the most part)…I also do not have a problem with that. You speak as if me being Baptist automatically sets me against you, well it doesn’t. There are two books that I have read that I can remember well, and I was quite shocked when I later heard bad things about the author (things that had been supposedly written in other books). One of them was titled ‘What to do when Faith seems weak and victory lost” and other title I can’t remember off hand…both of them by Kenneth Hagin Sr.
I had no problems with either of the books that I read and they actually played a good part in helping to shape my faith and beliefs. So I am not, as some people would say, an anti-WOF’er in any respect of the word…but if Kenneth Hagin Sr. later made claims in his books that Jesus Christ Himself visited him in body and even took Kenneth to Heaven and revealed certain extra-biblical things to him, well…he and I part ways on that.

ok, USE MY WORDS TO DESCRIBE ME.
HE IS OMNIPRESENT
he is present everywhere, but his body is not.

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Okay, this is a shift from an earlier stance, but I can see more about where you are coming from…this still doesn’t explain why Jesus says “God is Spirit.”
Just to clarify and show how your position has changed on this, You said: “… you cant get away from him, he can go there too,(and that does make sense). i dont think that means he is there already…”
You likened God’s spirit as the same as me saying, “I am with you in spirit, even though I am not there.” That is not the biblical meaning as pertains to God.

HE IS OMNISCIENT
but i do not agree this means he knows the actions of a free will agent before they are commited. thus, he does not know what i will choose, him or satan, life or death.

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Then you don’t agree with the following scriptures?
"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As He says also in Hosea: “I will call them My people, who were not My people,And her beloved, who was not beloved.” “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,‘You are not My people,’There they shall be called sons of the living God.” Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,The remnant will be saved. For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.” And as Isaiah said before: “Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,We would have become like Sodom,And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”" (Romans 9:14-29, NKJV)

"Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham." (Galatians 3:5-9, NKJV)

But let me give you the definitions:
Predestine, Predestination
The doctrine that God has foreordained all things which will come to pass yet He is not the author of sin. He does, however, use sinful things for His glory and purpose. For example, the crucifixion was brought about by sinful men who unrighteously put Jesus to death (Acts 4:27); yet, in that death, we are reconciled to God (Rom. 5:10).
Predestination maintains that God is the one who decides who will be saved (Rom. 9:16) and that it is not up to the desire of the person (John 1:13). God is the one who ordains the Christian into forgiveness, "...and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48). Also, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and who He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified" (Rom. 8:29-30). Further verses to examine are Eph. 1:4,11; Rom. 9.

Or another similar term:
Elect, Election
The elect are those called by God to salvation. This election occurs before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4) and is according to God's will not man's (Rom. 8:29-30; 9:6-23) because God is sovereign (Rom. 9:11-16). The view of election is especially held by Calvinists who also hold to the doctrine of predestination.

You don’t have to agree with the terms or everything they say…but the verses cited in the terms show that God is far more knowing than you think.

jesus does not know the day of the rapture, as he said he did not, for he said it is only for the father to know, and that day is not set in stone, for it has certain conditions upon it that are determined by the progress and actions of the church of god, the people of god, us.

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You have never cited this as I asked…I know where you are getting it from, but in it Jesus simply says ‘It’s not for MAN to know the time’. I do agree with you that the end is conditional…the final judgement (or at least the beginning of the tribulation). The rapture is not conditional on anything, but everything else starts after it (Tribulation, Millennial Kingdom, Final Judgment, etc.).

MAN IS CAPABLE OF BEING IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD IN THE SINFUL STATE.
the presence of god, is not the glory of god. and both are not lethal. as jacob said, surely god was here and i did not know it, he was in the presence of god, and did not die.
and those 3 verses were not my argument for this, but simply showing men have seen gods face. though that does mean men have been in the presence of god.

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Proof that you haven’t even read my posts in this thread…read them please. And note that you are talking about God the Father.

THE HOLYSPIRIT IS A PERSON WITH A BODY THAT CAN BE SEEN.
if the other members of the trinity have the ability to be unseen, we cannot conclude the holyspirit being unseen means he cant be seen. the reasons you use to say he cant be seen or cant be physical, also applies to the other members of the trinity.

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Then show me one place in the Bible where the Spirit is seen in body. You can’t, so to say this would be what is called ‘extra-biblical illumination’…which is a totally different argument altogether if you believe you have this. Read my comments at the end on this...

you said

...to devote time to study and not to arguement which is designed to make you different from other believers (which is your self-proclaimed goal).

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YOU MY FRIEND, ARE AN ABSOLUTE LIAR. For that is not my goal i never proclaimed that.

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Absolute Liar is a strong term, and I have been very systematic in responding to you without name calling…I hope you are not getting upset beyond the ability to discus rationally. I will say that using the term ‘self-proclaimed goal’ was not accurate at all. Nowhere have I seen you say “I study my bible to argue my beliefs with others who also are also believers.” I apologize for making that direct statement.
This is what leads me to that: every one of your posts has a disclaimer statement or some sort which always deals with other believers: (all from different posts)


“well now is where i end up showing that i dont beleive what most people do and they think im crasy or something.”

“it does not bother me a bit that no one else beleives the way i do, and no i am not the only one anyway.”

"ok, i will admit that i am diffrent than other people in doctrine, and that yes i do enjoy debating and discussing biblical issues. that i do enjoy."

“i here people call me and people like me heretics alot, but anyone can make claims like that, and no matter whos mouth it comes from it doesnt mean anything unless you can prove it with the word, and i dont beleive that is possible.”

“you can call them heretics or whatever you like. but we certainly do not come short in our biblical debates on why we beleive the way we do.”

“i know this is getting far out, and you people probly think im whacko for beleive this, since practicly no one else does, well, this is what i find the word to say to me.”

“sorry if that seemed defensive, i really didnt mean it that way. im just use to hearing statements like the one you gave. and it really doesnt effect me anymore.”

“im sorry if that seemed offensive or defensive, im not quarreling, i just really enjoy debates that get down to the nitty gritty details and make you think.”

“ok, i understand that you were simply showing me a diffrent point of view, and thats fine with me. i do not agree with that view.”

“im sorry if it looks like im just areguing, i really just love to discuss these things. if you want me to stop, i will.”


No, I am not attacking you…I have simply seen that from you throughout this forum, and that is what I based my statement on. The statement was too specific. Before you reply with ‘Jesus was considered a heretic’ as you normally do let me say that I agree with you. But when you are on an all Christian Forum, in all Christian sections and a large number of people disagree with you to the point where you feel like a heretic, there is something that you may need to analyze. If anyone at all tells me that I am wrong about something then I go back to the Word and look at my position in context with what they have said...the Word will be true to me, but I don't outright reject them and say "Well, that's just your beliefs...I am different and I don't care if everything thinks I am a heretic, cause I am right." I do a great deal of studying before I respond to each of your posts.
My observation, and the direction of this post, is that you desire to worship the Holy Spirit in some form and no where does the Bible tell us to focus any part of our worship on the Holy Spirit. You made the comment that you want and will see the HS with your own 2 eyes, face to face, one day…that is not for me to dispute or agree with, but that does set off a warning chime that perhaps your desire should be to see Jesus only.
Through your focus on the Holy Spirit you have also said things that bother me to others like telling them to keep up the faith and they will one day be like you, a preacher. Well, a preacher has no more significance in the body of Christ than a Christian mechanic sharing the Gospel in a grease pit…all of us are called to minister the Word and to say things like this really make me assume that you are being more than a little self-centered.

i will reply to your next post another time, and the rest in order, i have run out of time, see you again.

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Like I said, there is no need to discuss Omniscience and Omnipresence with you since you change your positions and don’t accept the standard definitions…I doubt I will be posting on them.

anyway, I give you verses and reasons why people have stood in the presence of a glorious god and did not die, and have seen a glorious god and did not die, until you can show me why this isn’t true, then I don’t really care to continue this. If you simply push my reasons aside ignoring them and continue on a different subject this will never end. address those reasons, don’t worry about you needing to help me in other areas, just address those 2 subjects, and the verses I used, it will make this much simpler and shorter.

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I did, read my first two posts on the subject in their entirety without jumping to any conclusions again….