Preterist interpretation of events?

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Originally posted by Mike Beidler
One of the biggest problems Christians, in general, have today is that they forget there is such thing as the Old Testament, that the OT is completely irrelevant to the interpretation of the New Testament.  They erroneously think that while the OT can use poetic, exaggerative language with voluminous amounts of metaphoric language, the NT does not.

People fail to realize that the NT authors borrowed from, alluded to, quoted from, and saw typological fulfillments in the OT, and that the borrowed language needs to be read in the same light as it was originally used.

Little do Christians understand that Revelation borrows so heavily from the OT that you very well could stick it amongst the Prophets and not realize the difference if it weren't for the mention of Jesus Christ.  Once the key to the OT is turned, Revelation opens itself so wide you can't help but fall through the door!

Instead, people rip headlines from the news and paste them amongst the words of Christ and the Apostles.

I agree Mike Another thing Christians, in general, have forget is that Jesus was a Jew who was familiar with Jewish prophetic thought (Matt. 5:17, 13:17; Luke 2:41-47, 24:27).  And your right his disciples also borrowed heavil from the OT.

The first thing one must understand about Revelation is that it is a book composed almost entirely of symbols-symbols that a first century Jew would have found immediately recognizable. These symbols were used before in such books as Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Zechariah.

When a "mark" is spoken of, it should bring to mind a previous reference to a mark, found in another place in the Old Testament. The "mark" received upon the right hand or the forehead, is a Jewish typological picture (as is virtually all of Revelation), not to a "physical" mark on a persons body, but to the fact that in Jewish thought form (which is where John was coming from).

But how did one, receive "the mark" and what did it mean in Jewish thought? It means that those who "took the mark" willingly, on their "right hand" (the Jewish picture of action and power), did whatever they did under the control of Rome, and they acted in accordance with that ungodly religious system (Pantheism).

The "mark" on the foreheads, was referring to the fact that Rome and their ideologies/ religions etc, were controlling the "minds and thoughts" of those who willingly followed this mind set. A perfect picture of this action in see in John. Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, Behold you King!" But they cried out, Away with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priest answered, "We have no king (but Caesar!") John 19:14-15.

This is the meaning of the "mark of the beast." Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him. But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did. Then the chief priest and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, What shall we do’ For this Man works many signs. "If we let Him alone like this everyone will believe in Him, (And the Romans will come and take away both place and nation).

Those who "took the mark" in the foreheads, were referring to the fact that Rome and their ideologies/ religions etc, were controlling the minds and thoughts of those who willingly followed this mind set. All the Jews understood this typological picture. Since John was a Jew he used numerous Jewish allusions out of the Old Testament in his book of Revelation. John writes in Greek, he thinks in Hebrew, and the thought has naturally affected the vehicle of express."

The same language of John’s Revelation when a "mark" is spoken of, should bring to mind a previous reference to a "mark" found in Ezekiel 9:3-6.  In that context, Jerusalem was also about to be besieged and destroyed (by the Babylonians). The Lord commanded an angel to place "a mark on the foreheads" of those that lamented the wickedness of the city. This angel is described as having "a writer’s inkhorn at his side" (9:3), with which he was to mark the righteous. It is clear from the context that this was not to be taken literally, as if an angel needed to carry a pen around with him and an inkhorn in which to dip it.

This was a figurative (symbolic) way of showing that there was a specific class of people within the doomed city that were being set apart for preservation (9:6). In Revelation, a similar "mark" is placed on those whom God wishes to preserve (7:3, 14:1). A "mark" is also received by those loyal to the beast, one which sets them apart for destruction (14:9-11). The mark is an emblem of ownership (John 19:14-15.)

We must allow Scripture to interpret itself whenever possible. Whether or not it or its fulfillment conforms to the unbiblical traditions we have been taught of what it should be like, is irrelevant! Most people today jump into the book of Revelation with the brazen assumption that it speaks of our times or a time yet future.

This ignores the book’s clear statements regarding the time of its fulfillment. To the readers of the first century, not the 20th, it was written that these were "things which must shortly come to pass" (Rev.11), and that the time for its fulfillment was "at hand" (Rev.1:3). And just in case they missed the point, it was reiterated at the end of the book that these were "things which must shortly be done" (Rev. 22:60.
 
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davo

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G'day chaps! :wave:

Yes exactly right. "The Scriptures" as mentioned in the NT are the OT writings -these were those that: He, having opened their minds, comprehended the Scriptures Lk 24:45, they were: ...the Scriptures ...which testify of Me Jn 5:39, which is seen in: Philip opening his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture [Isaiah], preached Jesus to him Act 8:35, and as Paul said: what saith the Scripture? Rom 4:3, Gal 4:30 etc etc etc.

Lk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

davo :)
 
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Mike Beidler

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Originally posted by Mandy
So do you deny that the NT is the word of God?

 

I'm genuinely shocked you asked that question, Mandy. :scratch: :confused:   The answer is:  OF COURSE NOT!!!!  Peter clearly refers to the writings of Paul as Scripture, and Jesus told his disciples that the Holy Spirit would bring to remembrance all the things that he said and did, implying that any "memoirs" of the Apostles would be "inspired."

But in the verses Davo quoted above referred only to the OT, not the NT.  To imply that they refer to the NT would be anachronistic.

Even in 2 Timothy 3:16, the Scriptures referred to there are the OT, and don't include the NT.  Of course, that's not to say that the NT doesn't meet Paul's definition and description of Scripture.  Although only an understanding of the OT was required to bring one into a saving knowledge of the Messiah, once the NT was written, Paul's definition and description of Scripture could be applied just as equally to the NT.  In fact, once one had a knowledge of the traditions enscripturated in the NT, the responsibility to respond favorably to the Messiah became greater.
 
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davo

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Originally posted by Mandy
So do you deny that the NT is the word of God?

Mandy, are you fair dinkum :scratch: or just needing to say something?

2Tim 3:15-16 [NKJV] 15and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures [OT], which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture [including NT] is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

2Pet 1:19-20 [NKJV] 19And so we have the prophetic word [of which the prophets of old searched] confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,

Rom 16:25-26 [NKJV] 25Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--

The Prophetic Scriptures included the Old Testament and that of the New Testament which was in the process of being written in that generation. Notice also that the "commandment of the everlasting God" [Matt 24:14, 26:18-20] is now made known to all nations -already.

davo
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by jamieluther
a question to preteriest what does the future look like to the bride of jesus christ? are what you all looking for? i am confused. any help would be appreciated.

Hi Jamieluther,

The preterist view is one of 4 major interpretations of Christian eschatology.  However, preterists look at the book of Revelation as depicting a shift in covenant from old to new.  I know it may sound strange, but Heb 8:7-13 and Gal 4:21-31 make it clear that during their day the old covenant didn't fully pass away.  Preterists also believe that the early Christians were living the last days (Heb 1:2, 1 John 2:18).  Preterism is also known as covenantal eschatology.  I actually prefer that term more than preterism.

So anyway, getting back to the topic, we look forward to our heavenly dwelling (2 Cor 5:2).  Preterists do not believe in a physical resurrection of believers (1 Cor 15:50) and that we won't know what our bodies will be like in heaven (1 John 3:2).  So the hope that we have is heaven. 

Also, I personally look forwards to many other things in the future: getting married, raising children, adopting a child, seeing believers of various denominations coming together to worship, seeing Christians actively involved in politics and many other wonderful things pertaining to Phil 4:8 =)

Now there's something to look forward to =)

-Jason
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by parousia70
Yeah Rainbow, I read that book too. the one that spells out all of what you just posted, almost verbatim

A co-woker of mine lent it to me...isn't it SDA in origin?

One thing stuck out to me.

Where in the Bible does it say  New England would be the only place of "darkness"?

 

If it was indeed the fulfillment of Bible prophesy, what prophesy did it fulfill?


Hi P70,

Is SDA, Seventh Day Advent?  And that 'book' sounds like a historicist approach to Revelation.

-Jason
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by npetreley
Can anyone point me to a site/article/series/whatever that describes how preterists assign various prophecies to actual events or even spiritual/symbolic interpretation?

I'm looking for explanations of things like (assuming it's all past) when the sun went dark and the moon turned the color of blood -- when the two witnesses manipulated weather, were killed, and people of the world celebrated by giving each other gifts -- when every living creature in the sea died -- when the Euphrates dried up, and that sort of thing.

Hi npretley,

This might help =)

http://www.liberty.edu/courses/theo250/preterism.html

http://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/index.html

God bless!

-Jason
 
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parousia70

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Originally posted by Hoonbaba



Hi P70,

Is SDA, Seventh Day Advent?  And that 'book' sounds like a historicist approach to Revelation.

-Jason

 

Yes, 7th day adventist it is, and yes it is an historical aproach. My futurist co- worker lent the book to me because he was so excited about some of the things it said, placing the fulfillment of many prophesies he'd once expeted to be yet future, in the past, although recent past.(last few hundred years).

I, in turn, lent him Noe's BEYOND THE END TIMES and a coulple of David Curtis' sermons I have on CD.

I told him, "you're looking int he right direction, just not far enough!"

Needless to say, He's was blown away!

It's really cool to see the light go on in someone after experiencing it yourself!

 

 
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by parousia70


 

Yes, 7th day adventist it is, and yes it is an historical aproach. My futurist co- worker lent the book to me because he was so excited about some of the things it said, placing the fulfillment of many prophesies he'd once expeted to be yet future, in the past, although recent past.(last few hundred years).

I, in turn, lent him Noe's BEYOND THE END TIMES and a coulple of David Curtis' sermons I have on CD.

I told him, "you're looking int he right direction, just not far enough!"

Needless to say, He's was blown away!

It's really cool to see the light go on in someone after experiencing it yourself!

 

 

Praise God!

Actually, what sermons are you referring to?  I think I might want to listen to them myself and share with some friends =)

God bless!

-Jason
 
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davo

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Originally posted by Hoonbaba
Actually, what sermons are you referring to?  I think I might want to listen to them myself and share with some friends =)

G'day Jason :)  how are ya mate! Try this link for some of David Curtis' sermons, and a few others.

www.audiowebman.org/bbc/audios.htm

davo
 
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Originally posted by Mandy
So do you deny that the NT is the word of God?

Another thing that I am aways amazed at is how the futurist always us all kinds of elaborate devices to try and defend their unbiblical views of end time events. 

One of the easiest thing for preterist is letting the Old Testament and New Testament speak for itself.   One of the difficult thing for futurist is letteing the New Testament and Old Testament speak for itself.   And you question here shows that is a fact.
 
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Sorry, I will humble myself and say that I am not as armed with self interpreted scripture as some of the preterists here, I know my scripture but I have not dissected it and decided I have the divine wisdom to make the assumption that Jesus' return will be spiritual. I believe it as I see it, and the way I see it, it will be a physical return.

The day I see humbleness in a preterist, and see that a preterist can consider that Christ has not returned yet, is the day I will consider seeing this from a preterist angle. And stop seeing preterism as 1 dimensional misinterpretation.

Most of the preterists are so high and mighty they believe their word is infallible and any other view is folly. [/B][/QUOTE]
 
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parousia70

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Very Ironic indeed!

I was just about to lay into ya for posting such drivil, then I saw it was but a quote.

I guess I'll lay in to whoever wrote it:

I know my scripture but I have not dissected it and decided I have the divine wisdom to make the assumption that Jesus' return will be spiritual.

Divine wisdom to make the assumption?

Isn't that oxymoronic?

Jesus' return, whether you view it past or future can only be accomplished and understood by it's inherantly spiritual nature.

How else do you suppose 1 billion Christians will get to be "face to face" with Jesus for eternity?

Or do you think we'll all have to wait in line in Jerusalem to get some "face time" with Christ, which we would have to do if Jesus returned in the same 6 foot physical frame He left in. (as I understand you are suggesting)

Lets see, a line of 1 billion in Jerusalem to see Christ "face to face" (as we are promised).

If each Christian gets 5 minutes "face to face' with Christ before moving on, you'd still be standing in line for over 1000 years.

...or perhaps you are suggesting we'll all get our own personal physical savior who'll be a our beck and call.
...or perhaps a Physical Jesus on every street corner.

Why don't you share how you are able to "De-spiritualize" an event that can only be understood and  explained by it's spiritulal nature?

The day I see humbleness in a preterist, and see that a preterist can consider that Christ has not returned yet, is the day I will consider seeing this from a preterist angle.

Here's the thing about that,

preterists, by and large, already did consider that Christ has not returned, many, like me, even  believed it with all their heart.

Preterists have been down that road, and saw the dead end, turned around, and sought a clear path.

You' ve yet to even look down this road, yet you have the gaul to claim "it must go nowhere". (humble indeed)

If you really want to attempt a lucid refutation of preterism, you might want to immerse yourself in preterist theology first. You might be suprised where the road leads ;)

 
 
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Guess what church I belong to?

The point I believe is that prophecy has always been interpreted historically. Daniel read from Jeremiah's writings (Dan. 9:2) and understood a seventy years of prophecy were about to end. I believe Daniel was worried the 2300 day prophecy in Dan. 8:14 was going to extend that time period past 70 years.

Real Bible prophets interpreted prophecy historically, so there is no other way to interpret it.

God Bless, Joe.
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by SDA7
Guess what church I belong to?

The point I believe is that prophecy has always been interpreted historically. Daniel read from Jeremiah's writings (Dan. 9:2) and understood a seventy years of prophecy were about to end. I believe Daniel was worried the 2300 day prophecy in Dan. 8:14 was going to extend that time period past 70 years.

Real Bible prophets interpreted prophecy historically, so there is no other way to interpret it.

God Bless, Joe.

You are a Seventh Day Adventist and you are a Trinitarian. Welcome to this section of the forum SDA7.

Ed
 
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