Heavenly or earthly millennium?

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adam332

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Most everyone agrees, that Rev 20 gives some details that will occur during the millenial reign, so do I. So this is our foundation. However that passage does not tell us where the reign will be.
All I'm asking is....

What passages you have found that show those same terms, images, and events from Rev. 20, that gives you the impression it will be on earth?


 

Ethan_Fetch

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I'm not sure what you're wanting here.

I'm Amil so I believe the thousand years to be non-literal and representative of the Church age.

When Christ gave the parable of the Strong Man (Matt. 12 and Mark 3) I believe He was describing the age after His first coming and just prior to His second.

The strong man is Satan who has held the world in bondage as his "house". At the cross, Satan was bound. This corresponds to the Rev. 20 account of him being bound as well.

Of course we're not talking about a physcial binding. Satan is not tied up somewhere, but he is prohibited from hindering the Gospel; i.e. having his goods plundered (his slaves stolen and saved).

At the end of the church age he will be released and will wreak havoc on the earth, His rage will be great, and the Church will be persecuted like never before.

Then Christ will return, defeat Satan and his minions finally and utterly judge the world and establish His Kingdom really and perpetually here on a renewed earth.

So the "millennium" is the Church age, it is both heavenly and earthly, I guess.
 
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adam332

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Ethan_Fetch said:
I'm not sure what you're wanting here.

I'm Amil so I believe the thousand years to be non-literal and representative of the Church age.

There are many millennial camps, but what appears to be the two biggest differences is when and where.

The point of the OP and this thread is; to show that Rev. 20 doesn't supply where this will occur. So if you want to know where the location that saints on thrones judging will occur, but the only verifiable passage doesn't tell you where, ... then one must seek out contextually relevant scripture that shows those same terms, images, and events.

To put it simply when one is trying to find out about the "flood", one doesn't do a word search on "leak".
 
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DeaconDean

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adam332,
You need to back up one chapter when reading this. Now I'm a premil. I'm not here to put down the amil's or the post-mils. But I do believe that the passage you want information on starts in Rev. 19:11.

But before I start, I must say, I take this passage of scripture literally. Not symbolicly, not metaphoricly, not allegoricly, but literally.

Here look:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." -Rev. 19:11-21

Then the passage you speak of picks up in verse 1. The Lord Jesus comes back with His armies to defeat the false prophet, the beast, and Satan. Where are the false prophet and the beast? Here on this present earth. So when Jesus defeats Satan and his armies and consequently is bound and cast into the pit, this all takes place here on our earth. So that chapter 20 is a continuation of chapter 19.

I hope this helps.
 
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adam332

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DeaconDean said:
adam332,
You need to back up one chapter when reading this. Now I'm a premil. I'm not here to put down the amil's or the post-mils. But I do believe that the passage you want information on starts in Rev. 19:11.

But before I start, I must say, I take this passage of scripture literally. Not symbolicly, not metaphoricly, not allegoricly, but literally.

Here look:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." -Rev. 19:11-21

Then the passage you speak of picks up in verse 1. The Lord Jesus comes back with His armies to defeat the false prophet, the beast, and Satan. Where are the false prophet and the beast? Here on this present earth. So when Jesus defeats Satan and his armies and consequently is bound and cast into the pit, this all takes place here on our earth. So that chapter 20 is a continuation of chapter 19.

I hope this helps.
Thank you DD,
I understand and agree that the events in Rev. 19 are indeed on earth and that they continue over in the sense that Satan is bound here. And for that reason many see it as being an earthly millennial reign.

In the same sense many others people believe they are justified with their view on a heavenly millennium... because they see the promises of new jerusalem and the mansions and the fabulous story of this city that is promised for the saints...and apply the inheritance of this city at that moment.

So somebody is misapplying scripture. Either the promise of the inheritance of that city in heaven doesn't occur then, or it does and those who believe in an earthly millennium have misapplied something.

Either way I am seeking to use the scripture we all agree on to discern which may be correct.
Christ does have to make his presence here, that doesn't mean he remains here nor does the text specify whether he does or doesn't.

We do know that there will be thrones in that place, and we do know that there will be saints judging on them.
 
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Easystreet

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Earth - Next event on Prophetic Calendar the Rapture of the Church, 7 year Tribulation, Second Coming the beginning of 1000 year Kingdom. Of the living on the face of the earth only the saved will enter the earthly kingdom and the church returns with Christ. All living lost at the second coming are raptured to hell, where all lost are until the end of the 1000 year kingdom at which time all lost on earth at that time born to the parents of the saved people that enter the kingdom and lost in hell are cast into the lake of fire with Satan, and all his demons.
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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Moving thread to Eschatology

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jeffweeder

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Considering what is going to happen at the 2nd coming, according to the following passages,


God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and[4][Lit along with us ] to us as well when[5][Lit at the revelation of the Lord Jesus ] the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His[6][Lit the angels of His power ] mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He comes to be glorified in[7][Or in the persons of ] His saints[8][Or holy ones ] on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count[9][Or make ] you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,
12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2PET3
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

A New Heaven and Earth
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its[2][Lit the works in it ] works will be burned[3][Two early mss read discovered ] up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


So we have nothing left, and all that is left is the new heaven +earth, where righteousness dwells.

so if the millenium starts here, where do the enemies like the sand of the seashore come from ? ( after the mill )

They come across the broad plain of the earth. ....

This must be the old earth, because no-one unrighteous, can get in to the new heaven or earth, where righteousness dwells.

At the great white throne we see heaven and earth flee , because no place was found for them, and this fits peters desciption above . His eyes were on this day, in response to the promise of his coming


7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance
 
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good4u

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Actually, here is what I believe as taught by Scripture:

The new Jerusalem where the saints reside will be suspended above the Mt. of Zion and connecting earth and the new Jerusalem will be the throne of the Lamb. So that Jesus will rule the earth from Mt. Zion and be connected to his Bride which hovers or suspended above Mt. Zion. Now, how cool is that?

How does the Apostle John explain that, why it is in Rev. 20.
 
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inhisdebt

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Ok here is your answer.
rev7v13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes

Zech 2v10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again

Ezekial 48v8 And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand reeds in breadth, and in length as one of the other parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sancnctuary shall be in the midst of it.
9 The oblation that ye shall offer unto the LORD shall be of five and twenty thousand in length, and of ten thousand in breadth.
10 And for them, even for the priests, shall be this holy oblation; toward the north five and twenty thousand in length, and toward the west ten thousand in breadth, and toward the east ten thousand in breadth, and toward the south five and twenty ththousand in length: and the sanctuary of the LORD shall be in the midst thereof.

There are many other scriptures to support this but this hits the basics we are to be in the temple and the temple is to be in jerusalam, and christ is to be there with us.
 
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Daywolf

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adam332 said:
In the same sense many others people believe they are justified with their view on a heavenly millennium... because they see the promises of new jerusalem and the mansions and the fabulous story of this city that is promised for the saints...and apply the inheritance of this city at that moment.
Actually, the new Jerusalem does not enter the scene until the end of the millennial rule of Christ which is at the seat of David. So you have ch 19 and the end of the world system, ch 20 with the millennial kingdom here on earth and then ch 21 which ends the millennial kingdom per say and continues into the everlasting kingdom with the unveiling of the new heavens, new earth and new Jerusalem. There is a 1000 year separation between the beginning of chapter 20 and chapter 21 which brings forth the New Jerusalem.
 
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inhisdebt

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8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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inhisdebt said:
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
If we are reigning on earth, what the heck is the purpose of Christ having to come down, sit on a chair in Jerusalem, and give orders for over 10 to 15 generations.?

Does that also mean we will have to do sacrifices to Him while living and reigning on earth :confused: The jews must be laughing their heads off at this belief in christianity. Egads!!!!
 
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inhisdebt

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LittleLambofJesus said:
If we are reigning on earth, what the heck is the purpose of Christ having to come down, sit on a chair in Jerusalem, and give orders for over 10 to 15 generations.?

Does that also mean we will have to do sacrifices to Him while living and reigning on earth :confused: The jews must be laughing their heads off at this belief in christianity. Egads!!!!
(Gen 15 v 18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates ) is the purpose, this promise remains to be filled. No we will already be transformed into our new spiritual bodies we will not need sacrifices our price has been paid. However there will be 1/3 rd of the earth to survive the day of the lord , they will revert to animal sacrifices as faith is impoosible with G-d visably present. And this statement was made by the original 24 in heaven, so they were clearly looking forward to an future earthly reign. And actually the jews are and were expecting an earthly kingdom to begin with as that is what the OT teaches.
 
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Daywolf

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Yes, the sacrifices were only in place as a way to look forward to the Lamb of God and his sacrifice which is the only way sinful man could be atoned and remissioned from sin, the animal sacrifices in themselves do not remove sin. If there are animal sacrifices in the millennial kingdom, it will only be to look back at the cross in celebration of what took place and for other observances, as always it will be a feast. It would be like saying taking communion is what saves us, but really it is just in remembrance of what was done.

When the Jews died then, they did not go to heaven, they went to Abrahams bosom and waited for the finished work on the cross before they were able to enter the holy of holies in the heavenly places. Sacrifices are just for observance, for the promise to come or for observance of what God did do such as for Passover or as communion with God in celebration.
 
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