What Day Of The Week Is The Sabbath?

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tall73

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Linda63 said:
SABBATH
(rest). God first gave the sabbath as a duty to man in the book of Exodus. It is true that the sabbath originated at the completion of the creation (Ge 2:1-3), but that was God's rest, not man's. There is no record in Genesis that God gave the sabbath to man, and there is no record of men keeping the sabbath before Israel in the wilderness. Ne 9:13-14 plainly states that the sabbath was first given to Israel.

a. It did not say they were the first to receive it. It said that He gave them His laws, and Sabbaths. First of all it is referring to the covenant agreement which was carried out at the mountain. But the Israelites themselves did not first learn of it there. They were keeping it before Sinai in the gathering of Manna. The point is that God made the requirements of the covenant specifics at Sinai.

b. As slaves in Egypt they would not have been keeping the Sabbath, therefore whether they, thousands of years after Genesis, knew of the Sabbath does not say whether Adam in Eden did. It says that on the Seventh-day He blessed it and sanctified it, and the commandment itself referred back to this event.

Seventh-day Adventists teach that men kept the sabbath from the days of Adam onward, but this is contrary to the Bible's own record. Ex 31:12-18 says the sabbath was a special sign between God and Israel. If mankind in general had been given the sabbath following creation, it could not have been a sign for Israel. The fact is that the sabbath belongs to the nation Israel and not to any other people. It is also important to note that the sabbath will be an eternal possession of Israel (Ex 31:16).


a. It could be a sign if all others were not keeping it at the time.

b. The commandment itself shows that strangers in Israel also had to keep the Sabbath, Israelite or not.

c. The early Christians continued to keep the Sabbath. Paul looked for Christiians in the synagogue. Paul preached to gentile and jew alike in the synagogue. And when there was no synagogue he went to a place of prayer on the Sabbath. James mentions the Sabbath being kept every week in Acts 15. In fact history shows that even through the 5th century AD the majority of Christians were still assembling on every Sabbath.

This sign will never be annulled or transferred to another people. This explains why the prophets foretell that Israel will keep the sabbath even after the kingdom of Christ is established on earth (Isa 66:23). It also explains why Jesus Christ mentioned the sabbath in His prophecies of the Tribulation (Mt 24:20). Israelites in the land of Palestine still keep the sabbath today.
In their writings to the churches, the Apostles only mentioned the sabbath three times.

If you accept that the Jewish Christians are still to keep it, I agree with you there. It is clear that the Nazarenes kept it for some time, and as James said the church at Jerusalem was zealous for the law. Acts 15 is the key text in this regard, and perhaps we should look at it more closely.

However, history also shows that the gentiles kept it.

(1) The sabbath is a symbol of salvation rest in Christ (Heb. 4).
I will address this in the next post due to the length.

(2) The N.T. believer is not bound to keep the sabbath (Col 2:9-17).

Actually that is not what it says.
Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [/quote]

Notice the context:
Col 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God

The text reveals that they were being asked to include various rigorous observances on these various days, including worship of angels, food restrictions etc. The question was not on what day to keep but on judging those who were keeping it.

(3) The N.T. believer has liberty in the matter of holy days (Ro 14:1-23).

There is no mention of feast days or Sabbath days in Romans 14, and the food requirements given were not even those from the OT but were to abstain even from vegetables.

Moreover, if that text is in regards to the Sabbath then it contradicts what you said above. There were Jews in Rome, as we see from the rest of the book. Why would he tell them that they were not obligated to keep it if you said it was forever for them?

Those who teach that the sabbath is binding upon the Christian, are going contrary to what the Apostles taught.

The problem is history does not agree. Even in Col which is the trump text for most it is clear that they WERE keeping those days, but were being judged in how they did it.

And certainly the Jewish Christians were keeping the day, and whenever we see Paul preaching he did not switch them over to Sunday but continued to meet with them on Sabbath, sometimes for years.

Why, then, did Jesus keep the Sabbath? He kept the sabbath for the same reason He kept all the other Mosaic laws. He also observed the feasts. Jesus did these things because He was born a Jew, born under the law, that He might fulfill it and redeem His people from its penalty and bondage (Ga 4:4; Ro 9:5).

The problem is Jesus said He did not come to remove the law. If you say that fulfilling it is removing it , then you make the sentance make no sense. Moreover, Jesus not only kept the day, He challenged the notions of the Jewish leaders who had made it into legalism.

Jesus did not say that the law was bondage. He said that the Sabbath was made for man. The bondage was the legalism of the pharisees.
 
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tall73

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Here is my take on Hebrews 4. To get to the meaning I have made a review of the general content of each chapter so as to outline the themes. The overall theme is simply that Jesus is superior to their previous understanding in every way. They should not fall away from the faith entrusted to them. They are warned not to return to Judaism, or fall away due to persecution, but to cling to Jesus. Jesus touches on the key figures in the Jewish mind, Moses, Abraham, angels, Aaron, etc. and Jesus is superior to them all. To fall away from Him would be worse than to fall away from the first covenant.

The meaning of chapter 4 should be in line with this overall theme.

A. The overall book.
Chapter 1:
Jesus is superior to angels. They are ministering spirits, He is the Son.

Chapter 2:
A warning against falling away from the message they had heard

Jesus made like unto his bretehren. He is able to help them when tempted (to fall away)

Chapter 3:
Jesus was better than Moses. Moses was faithful in all of God's house. But Jesus was the Son, to whom all the house belongs. We are the house.

Another warning against falling away. If today you hear his voice do not harden your hearts. Their possible rebellion against God's will is compared with the people in the exodus, who at first left Egypt but were later punished for unbelief.

They are to encourage each other daily to avoid hardening by sin.

Chapter 4: - to be examined further below

Chapter 5:
A priest must be called

Jesus a High priest in the order of Melchizedek, the source of eternal salvation for all who believe

The Hebrew believers are not able to comprehend, because they are still spiritual infants, though they ought by now to be teachers. They have not spiritually matured. They need basics rather than the teaching about righteousness.

Chapter 6:
A call to not fall away. The strongest yet. It will be impossible for those enlightened ones who have drunk of the Spirit, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance. They will have crucified Jesus again by denying Him publicly.

An illustration is given of a worthless plot of land that takes in rain but never produces. This is a picture of the recipients, who have received blessings from God but have not grown, and are in danger of falling away. But better things are hoped for in their case. They should continue to the end.


Abraham was patient and received what was promised God swore by Himself with an oath. They too have assurance from God.

Chapter 7:
Return to the High priest theme. Melchizedek received tithe from Abraham, had no geneology (was without beginning and end), was called the king of righteousness, and the king of peace and remains a priest forever. He did not descend from Levi. Levi figuratively paid the tithe through Abraham. He was greater than Abraham as the lesser is blessed by the greater.

The levitical preisthood did not bring perfection. Jesus was not of the line of Aaron but of the line of Melchizedek. He was both King and Priest. The Lord made Him a priest forever, not on the basis of lineage, but His indestructible life. He does not offer sacrifices over and over for His own sin and others, but one sacrifice for all time, Himself.

Chapter 8:
Jesus is the High Priest of the true tabernacle in heaven, of which the earthly was a copy.

Jesus' ministry is superior to that of the other priesthood, and his covenant is better.

The old covenant was based on bad promises because the people did not keep them. God therefore made a new covenant. The law was written on the heart and mind, and God forgave their sins, and made them His people. It was not dependent on their promises.

Chapter 9:
A review of the worship in the earthly temple, including a brief layout of the grounds. Particularly the Day of Atonement service is treated. Only the high priest went into the most holy place, once a year. Jesus went through the real tabernacle as high priest. He cleanses us with better sacrifices than cleansed the earthly temple.

Jesus is in charge of a better covenant. Just as blood was necessary for a will, Jesus' death and blood initiated the new covenant.

Jesus died once to take away sin and will return again not as a sacrifice but to bring salvation.

Chapter 10:
Sacrifices are not the reality, they are an annual reminder of sin. Jesus' once for all sacrifice provided salvation and the new covenant.

A call to persevere in light of our great High Priest and the salvation He brought. They are not to forsake meeting together.

Those who continually sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth have no sacrifice for sin left.

He calls to mind the early days of the faith of the recipients when they were persecuted, lost possessions etc. They should not shrink back and be destroyed, but endure and receive what is promised.

Chapter 11:
Heros of the faith are outlined, all of which endured by faith. They did not receive what was promised, but now it is revealed in their time.

Chapter 12:
We are to follow Jesus who ran the race before us, and endured persecution.

Hardships are discipline from the Lord of His sons.

Instruction on holy living.

They are not come to the mountain of fire, trembling in fear, but to Mount Zion, the new Jerusalem, the city of God, to joyful assembly. They should not refuse God, as those who refused on earth did not escape.

Chapter 13:
Closing reminders and calls to obey leaders, holy living, reminders of Jesus' sacrifice etc.

B.
The context of chapter 4.

Chapter 3 begins the thought that is continued in chapter 4. So a closer look is warranted.

HEB 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. 2 He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God's house. 3 Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. 4 For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything.

As Moses was seen as the law giver and friend of God the author wanted to make plain that Jesus is superior to him as well. Moses was a servant of God, Jesus is the Son, over all the house.

5 Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's house, testifying to what would be said in the future. 6 But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.

HEB 3:7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:

"Today, if you hear his voice,

HEB 3:8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,

HEB 3:9 where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.

HEB 3:10 That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, `Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'

HEB 3:11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
`They shall never enter my rest.' "

HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

Here a scene is reviewed from the experience of Moses, through the vehicle of Psalm 95. The exodus experience is in view when the tribes failed to go up and take the promised land. The whole generation died in the wilderness, even though they had left originally in faith. In the same way the ones who were now in danger of falling away had taken their stand for Jesus but now were in danger of falling away.


15 As has just been said:

"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."

HEB 3:16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

It is those who disobey who are in view. Again, an encouragement to the recipients not to emulate them.

C. Chapter 4
HEB 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

"So I declared on oath in my anger,
`They shall never enter my rest.' "

The promise still stands today to enter God's rest. In context, this would be belief and the reward it brings. They are to enter by faith, staying firm to the end, which is where the earlier fell short.

And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5 And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."

God is seen as resting from the beginning of creation. He waits for people to enter that rest. The issue here is simply that God is resting, and waits for others. The view is not that God rests only one day a week, but has been in continuous rest since that time.

HEB 4:6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:

"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts."

HEB 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

Joshua led the people to the promised land. But the psalm still said there was a rest to enter. So therefore the rest was not fulfilled just by entering the promised land. It is the promise of salvation. Salvation is ultimately entering into God's rest which He has been in since creation. It is ceasing from our own works, and living by faith–the opposite of what those who doubted and died did.

The invitation is open to them today. It is the day of decision. But if they fall back they will suffer the same fate as those who fell in the wilderness.

HEB 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Those who are in danger of falling away should remember the example of those who fell in the desert. They cannot hide from God.

HEB 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. 16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Jesus is able to help, being tempted as we are. They need not fall away.

D. Sabbath implications.

This text is neither a support for weekly Sabbath observance, or a text which changes it. It is a call to not fall away as did the people in Moses' time. Their mistake was to not act in faith. It is the purpose of the letter to encourage the Hebrew Christians not to do the same, but to endure in faith.

The Sabbath rest mentioned is not the weekly Sabbath experience, but the lasting rest that God entered into and has remained in since. (This is clearly figurative as God is said to be at work every day by Jesus).

The recipients have the opportunity to enter the rest of salvation in Jesus through faith. But if they turn back they will be like those who fell in the desert.


The term Sabbatismos, while at other times referring to the weekly Sabbath is here simply referring to the eternal rest which that Sabbath rest of God pointed to in a larger sense. The Sabbath is a foretaste of that permanent rest that God is calling us to.

However, since the full meaning of the Sabbath has not been realized, and since the early church continued to keep it, and since the law of God was now written on the heart, how can we say it is fulfilled? If anything Jesus' ministry and death pointed out more fully the meaning of the Sabbath, and its soon coming fulfillment at the end of this earth. (Just as Jesus speaks of the Passover being fulfilled in the kingdom).

The text is not an argument for or against keeping the weekly Sabbath. It is simply an appeal to accept salvation.
 
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tall73

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DeaconDean said:
Friend, I will not debate with you in this thread. As a Baptist, I'm bound to follow the Baptist Faith and Message of 2000. We (Baptists) celebrate the day our Lord rose from the grave (Sunday) by chosing to worship on that day. You have your system, we have ours. You'll not change me, I'll not change yours.

I am not asking to change your system. I am asking to stay on topic which is not repeating our denominational beliefs but getting into the details of the question in the OP.

Instead you were making personal statements about anyone who would consign people to hell, when the whole notion that someone was consigned to hell was someone's sarcastic reaction.

Yes I was, there were people on this thread who were beating him down pretty bad. So I guess I can't offer a word of hope either, hum?

You are welcome to offer hope. I never said you couldn't. It is you that objects to me analyzing your post, not the other way around. I expect you to analyze , that is the whole point of a discussion.

But when you make statements about people consigning folks to hell then you need to back that up. Brightcandle, who he quoted, stated a biblical fact regarding the experience of Adam and Eve. What is the basis then for turning that into a sarcastic statement about consigning him to hell?

Once you defend someone you are going beyond comforting. You are putting yourself in the conversation, as you are anytime you post.

Anybody who says that we are sining by not worshiping on Saturday. (Catholics, who some hold Saturday Mass, Eastern Orthodox, SDA, Jews, anybody who says we are sinning by not observing Saturday as our Sabbath)

So when he quoted a particular poster we are safe in assuming who he meant right?


I will address the health thing in a minute, gotta go workout :)
 
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DeaconDean

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I tell you what friend, don't give me quotes from external sources, use the Bible and show me where:

1) "And the evening and the morning were the first day." -Gen. 1:5
First day=Sunday
2) "And the evening and the morning were the second day." -Gen. 1:8
Second day=Monday
3) "And the evening and the morning were the third day." -Gen. 1:13
Third day=Tuesday
4) "And the evening and the morning were the fourth day." -Gen. 1:19
Third day=Wednesday
5) "And the evening and the morning were the fifth day." -Gen. 1:23
Fifth day=Thursday
6) " And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." -Gen. 1:31
Sixth day=Friday
7) "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." -Ex. 20:8
Sabbath=Saturday

Show me in the Bible, no external sources, show me in the Bible where God gave any day a specific name, and where in the Bible does it say specificly, that Saturday is the Sabbath?
 
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adam332

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DeaconDean said:
I tell you what friend, don't give me quotes from external sources, use the Bible and show me where:

1) "And the evening and the morning were the first day." -Gen. 1:5
First day=Sunday
2) "And the evening and the morning were the second day." -Gen. 1:8
Second day=Monday
3) "And the evening and the morning were the third day." -Gen. 1:13
Third day=Tuesday
4) "And the evening and the morning were the fourth day." -Gen. 1:19
Third day=Wednesday
5) "And the evening and the morning were the fifth day." -Gen. 1:23
Fifth day=Thursday
6) " And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." -Gen. 1:31
Sixth day=Friday
7) "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." -Ex. 20:8
Sabbath=Saturday

Show me in the Bible, no external sources, show me in the Bible where God gave any day a specific name, and where in the Bible does it say specificly, that Saturday is the Sabbath?

I'm not sure what your asking...you do know that
the term Sunday came from the sun god that was worshipped on that day. The Roman empire was filled with Pagan's who worshipped there sun god on "dies solis", a Roman holiday. We received all the names of the days of the week from the planets.

Monday - Moon
Tuesday - Mars
Wednesday - Mercury
Thursday - Jupiter
Friday - Venus
Saturday - Saturn
Sunday - (Sun)

English has retained the original planets in the names for Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. For the four other days, however, the names of Anglo-Saxon or Nordic gods have replaced the Roman gods that gave name to the planets. Thus, Tuesday is named after Tiw, Wednesday is named after Woden, Thursday is named after Thor, and Friday is named after Freya.

You yourself proclaim that Sunday is the first day, in which Christ rose, and that your church has CHOSEN to keep that day. So you nor anyone in your congregagtion has any doubt which day equals the first day. Therefore you perfectly well know what day is the Sabbath.
 
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DeaconDean

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adam332 said:
I'm not sure what your asking...you do know that
the term Sunday came from the sun god that was worshipped on that day. The Roman empire was filled with Pagan's who worshipped there sun god on "dies solis", a Roman holiday. We received all the names of the days of the week from the planets.

Monday - Moon
Tuesday - Mars
Wednesday - Mercury
Thursday - Jupiter
Friday - Venus
Saturday - Saturn
Sunday - (Sun)

English has retained the original planets in the names for Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. For the four other days, however, the names of Anglo-Saxon or Nordic gods have replaced the Roman gods that gave name to the planets. Thus, Tuesday is named after Tiw, Wednesday is named after Woden, Thursday is named after Thor, and Friday is named after Freya.

You yourself proclaim that Sunday is the first day, in which Christ rose, and that your church has CHOSEN to keep that day. So you nor anyone in your congregagtion has any doubt which day equals the first day. Therefore you perfectly well know what day is the Sabbath.

What I go by is the general accepted dates given by the Julian calendar. When Jesus rose from the dead on the third day, the third day could have been thursday. No one knows for sure. So when the Bible says the disciples gathered together to break bread on the first day, I take it to mean Sunday. Shoot, it could have been Monday. The fact is, nowhere in the Bible is any names given for any of the "day"s.
 
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tall73

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DeaconDean said:
So would you say this statement is true:

Healthful Lifestyle
SDAs believe their bodies to be the temples of the Holy Spirit [SIZE=-1]26[/SIZE]. Thus they feel a duty to take care of their bodies as such [SIZE=-1]27[/SIZE] by a healthful lifestyle which includes avoiding the unclean meats [SIZE=-1]28[/SIZE]. They also abstain from alcoholic drinks, smoking and nonmedical drug use, since these do not promote wellness.

26 1 Cor 6:19-20
27 2 Cor 7:1
28 Lev 11

Your core beliefs (in this particular area)have their roots in the law.

Please show me where tobacco and alcohol etc. are in the law? They are not. The belief is about health. The levitical laws are quoted because they are seen to have health principles in them as is seen by modern medicine. The official position of the Adventist chuch is that the written law, in Moses hand, that was placed by the ark, is done away with. The levitical dietary laws come under that heading. It is the ten commandment law, or more precisely the moral nature of the commandments (as Jesus expressed more fully) which are a reflection of God's character and do not change.

So no, I do not keep the levitical laws for salvation or because of the law.

Lev. 11:

And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth. 3 Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat. 4 Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. 5 And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. 6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. 7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. 8 Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.

9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat. 10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: 11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. 12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you. 13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray, 14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind; 15 Every raven after his kind; 16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind, 17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl, 18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle, 19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you. 21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth; 22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind. 23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you. 24 And for these ye shall be unclean: whosoever toucheth the carcase of them shall be unclean until the even. 25 And whosoever beareth ought of the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even. 26 The carcases of every beast which divideth the hoof, and is not clovenfooted, nor cheweth the cud, are unclean unto you: every one that toucheth them shall be unclean. 27 And whatsoever goeth upon his paws, among all manner of beasts that go on all four, those are unclean unto you: whoso toucheth their carcase shall be unclean until the even. 28 And he that beareth the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: they are unclean unto you. 29 These also shall be unclean unto you among the creeping things that creep upon the earth; the weasel, and the mouse, and the tortoise after his kind, 30 And the ferret, and the chameleon, and the lizard, and the snail, and the mole. 31 These are unclean to you among all that creep: whosoever doth touch them, when they be dead, shall be unclean until the even. 32 And upon whatsoever any of them, when they are dead, doth fall, it shall be unclean; whether it be any vessel of wood, or raiment, or skin, or sack, whatsoever vessel it be, wherein any work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the even; so it shall be cleansed. 33 And every earthen vessel, whereinto any of them falleth, whatsoever is in it shall be unclean; and ye shall break it. 34 Of all meat which may be eaten, that on which such water cometh shall be unclean: and all drink that may be drunk in every such vessel shall be unclean. 35 And every thing whereupon any part of their carcase falleth shall be unclean; whether it be oven, or ranges for pots, they shall be broken down: for they are unclean, and shall be unclean unto you. 36 Nevertheless a fountain or pit, wherein there is plenty of water, shall be clean: but that which toucheth their carcase shall be unclean. 37 And if any part of their carcase fall upon any sowing seed which is to be sown, it shall be clean. 38 But if any water be put upon the seed, and any part of their carcase fall thereon, it shall be unclean unto you. 39 And if any beast, of which ye may eat, die; he that toucheth the carcase thereof shall be unclean until the even. 40 And he that eateth of the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: he also that beareth the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even. 41 And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten. 42 Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination. 43 Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby. 44 For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy. 46 This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth: 47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.

So you are submitting yourself to the O.T. law.

Since you do, Paul was adressing the Galatians when he spoke to them about "ceremonial circumcision" when he said:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."-Gal. 5:2

Circumcision was required by the law for Jews:

"And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you." -Gen 17:9-11

It later became a law under Moses:

"And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised." -Lev. 12:3

Back to what I was getting to. Paul said:

"For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law." -Gal. 5:3

Paul was addressing "ceremonial" observance of the law. The Galatians were being misled to believe that not only did you have to have faith in God as Paul preached, but they had to submit to "ceremonial circumcision" also. And Paul stated that if you submit to "ceremonial" observance of the law. then "Christ is of no effect." And you had better be able to do the whole law. So friend you go ahead and observe the "law." As for myself, I am:

"not under the law." -Gal. 5:18

God bless you and your beliefs friend. I've already posted more than I intended to. You have your beliefs and I have mine. Lets leave it that way.

I'm outta here.

a. we do not teach circumcision.

b. I do not put myself under the law to be judged by it, but accept Christ's grace, as you would know if you read my other posts in this thread.

As to your further posting that is up to you. If discussion to you is only to state your denominational beliefs that is fine. But once you put them out there they will be discussed, since this whole forum is for doctrinal discussion between faiths.
 
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tall73

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DeaconDean said:
What I go by is the general accepted dates given by the Julian calendar. When Jesus rose from the dead on the third day, the third day could have been thursday. No one knows for sure. So when the Bible says the disciples gathered together to break bread on the first day, I take it to mean Sunday. Shoot, it could have been Monday. The fact is, nowhere in the Bible is any names given for any of the "day"s.

So if they didn't know what day the Sabbath was, why would there be any problem with them keeping it? (if indeed there was, it is your contention).

The days of the week are not in question since the resurrection. And it calls it the first day of the week. That day was quite well known in the Roman empire and the church has noted both the first and seventh ever since.

Your doctrinal statement does not seem confused on the first day:

From the Baptist Faith and Message of 2000:

VIII. The Lord's Day
The first day of the week is the Lord's Day. It is a Christian institution for regular observance.
 
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adam332

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DeaconDean said:
What I go by is the general accepted dates given by the Julian calendar. When Jesus rose from the dead on the third day, the third day could have been thursday. No one knows for sure. So when the Bible says the disciples gathered together to break bread on the first day, I take it to mean Sunday. Shoot, it could have been Monday. The fact is, nowhere in the Bible is any names given for any of the "day"s.

So you think it's somehow possible that; in the last two thousand years, all the jews on the planet may have accidently all switched to another day? Or pehaps they all simultaneously lost the ability to count from 1 to 7 and lost track of the day?

As far as I know they have been pretty "religious" about keeping every 7th day. But, who knows they may all be trying to trick us.

There is absolutely know reason to believe the seventh day Sabbath that Israel and Christ kept 2000yrs ago has been lost and it is not the same one they keep there today.
 
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DeaconDean

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I tell you what. To foster brotherhood on the forum, I'll bow to your beliefs. But before I go, let me say that nowhere in the Bible does it say what day is what. All God said was that you have six days in which to labor. The seventh day was His day. We are to keep it holy. The Bible never does say that you shall work Sunday through Friday and keep Saturday as the Sabbath. As a Baptist, Paul tells us to: "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord," (2 Cor: 6:17). Peter tells us that we are "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;" (1 Pet. 2:9)

According to the Baptist Faith and Message of 2000, their interpretation of Ex. 20:8-11, "Remember the Sabbath, and to keep it holy." And since the Bible gives no specific day of the week as the Sabbath, since Jesus rose from the dead on the third day (which is commonly accepted as Sunday), as a Baptist we recognize Sunday as our Sabbath, We celebrate our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ's day of rising from the grave on Sunday as our Sabbath.

If your religious denomination choses to worship on Saturday as your Sabbath, God Bless you.

Whatever day you chose to worship God and the Savior on let us agree that:

"This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." -Psa. 118:24

If my posts offended anybody, then I humbly apologize. I will not post in this thread again. May each one of you who want to "discuss and debate" this issue, God Bless.

I'm out of this thread.

God Bless each one of you.
 
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tall73

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DeaconDean said:
I tell you what. To foster brotherhood on the forum, I'll bow to your beliefs. But before I go, let me say that nowhere in the Bible does it say what day is what. All God said was that you have six days in which to labor. The seventh day was His day. We are to keep it holy. The Bible never does say that you shall work Sunday through Friday and keep Saturday as the Sabbath. As a Baptist, Paul tells us to: "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord," (2 Cor: 6:17). Peter tells us that we are "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;" (1 Pet. 2:9)

According to the Baptist Faith and Message of 2000, their interpretation of Ex. 20:8-11, "Remember the Sabbath, and to keep it holy." And since the Bible gives no specific day of the week as the Sabbath, since Jesus rose from the dead on the third day (which is commonly accepted as Sunday), as a Baptist we recognize Sunday as our Sabbath, We celebrate our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ's day of rising from the grave on Sunday as our Sabbath.

If your religious denomination choses to worship on Saturday as your Sabbath, God Bless you.

Whatever day you chose to worship God and the Savior on let us agree that:

"This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." -Psa. 118:24

If my posts offended anybody, then I humbly apologize. I will not post in this thread again. May each one of you who want to "discuss and debate" this issue, God Bless.

I'm out of this thread.

God Bless each one of you.

Deacon Dean, whether you continue posting or not I just want to say that it doesn't hurt brotherhood to disagree on some matters. I don't have a problem with disagreement, and no one expects you to bow to our beliefs. But discussion and debate is the purpose of this forum. So yes, I do come here for that.

God bless you.
 
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SonicBOOM

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KalEl76 said:
I'd like to know what day of the week is the Sabbath and I don't want to hear the seventh day. Is it Saturday?

traditional veiws say Sunday [which is why church is on Sunday] but I think God's purpose for Sabbath keeping was for us not to overwork ourselves, take at least 1 day off every week to rest and relax and you fullfill the purpose of the sabbath
 
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Splayd

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Aaaargh! Why is this so hard to comprehend?

The literal, traditional, definitive Sabbath is Saturday! No question, no query, just cold hard fact. The bible confirms as much every time it uses the word Sabbath because when the Bible was written the Jews didn't call their days Sunday, Monday... Saturday. They called them :
Reeshone, Yom Shaynee, Yom Shlee´shee, Yom Revee´ee, Yom Khah´mee´shee, Yom Ha´shee´shee, Shabbat

"Sabbath" or Shabbat in Hebrew is the name the Jews had for the day we call Saturday. If you want to know what a Hebrew word means - ask the Jews. Sabbath means "Rest" and it's also their name for the day that we call "Saturday" (well Friday sundown to Saturday sundown).

Once we've established what the actual Sabbath is, you really only have 5 options:

1. Keep the biblical/historical Sabbath (Fri eve till Sat eve).
2. Keep the "Lord's day" (Sunday) instead of the Sabbath because the Catholics said it changed.
3. Keep any day (Saturday, Sunday, Monday, etc...) to rest and remember God as a substitute for the Sabbath.
4. Keep every day as a Sabbath because Jesus is our Sabbath rest.
5. Don't keep the Sabbath at all.

It continually surprises me that within Christendom there seems to be little contention among those who opt for choices 2-5. I suspect it's because anyone who chooses to worship on Sunday can do so according to all 4 choices... BUT anyone can worship on Saturday according to choices 1,3,4,5 as well, so I don't understand the big hooha. Ultimately anyone who opts for 3,4 or 5 shouldn't care which day it is, so why do they consistently side with Catholicism (Sunday) and argue against scripture (Saturday).

Anyway - all of this talk about whether we should or shouldn't do something is a distraction. The answer to the OP is quite simply "Yes - it's Saturday".
 
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ThreeAM

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DeaconDean said:
I tell you what friend, don't give me quotes from external sources, use the Bible and show me where:

1) "And the evening and the morning were the first day." -Gen. 1:5
First day=Sunday
2) "And the evening and the morning were the second day." -Gen. 1:8
Second day=Monday
3) "And the evening and the morning were the third day." -Gen. 1:13
Third day=Tuesday
4) "And the evening and the morning were the fourth day." -Gen. 1:19
Third day=Wednesday
5) "And the evening and the morning were the fifth day." -Gen. 1:23
Fifth day=Thursday
6) " And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." -Gen. 1:31
Sixth day=Friday
7) "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." -Ex. 20:8
Sabbath=Saturday

Show me in the Bible, no external sources, show me in the Bible where God gave any day a specific name, and where in the Bible does it say specificly, that Saturday is the Sabbath?

The Sabbath is not Saturday. It is from what we now call sundown friday to what we now call sundown Saturday. So the first few hours of every Sabbath really occur on what we now call friday. And what we call Saturday night is not the Sabbath at all.

Now you have already informed me that you observe sunday because of the ressurection so therefore you believe the resurrection occured on Sunday. Its pretty simple then, the Sabbath occured the day before the resurrection.

Luke 23:54 And that day was the preparation [paraskeue], and the sabbath drew on. (In Modern Greek the word for "Friday" is paraskeue.)

55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.

56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

2. And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.

3. And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.

You believe in Sola Scripta don't you?

Now show me where God has asked you to have your "Sabbath" on the 1st day of the week because of the resurrection. No external sources please.:) God blessed the 7th day of the week and set it asided from the other 6 days of the week by making the seventh day of the week HOLY. Please show me from the Bible where the 1st day of the week has been declared as HOLY by God.
 
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DeaconDean said:
I tell you what. To foster brotherhood on the forum, I'll bow to your beliefs. But before I go, let me say that nowhere in the Bible does it say what day is what. All God said was that you have six days in which to labor. The seventh day was His day. We are to keep it holy. The Bible never does say that you shall work Sunday through Friday and keep Saturday as the Sabbath. As a Baptist, Paul tells us to: "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord," (2 Cor: 6:17). Peter tells us that we are "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;" (1 Pet. 2:9)

According to the Baptist Faith and Message of 2000, their interpretation of Ex. 20:8-11, "Remember the Sabbath, and to keep it holy." And since the Bible gives no specific day of the week as the Sabbath, since Jesus rose from the dead on the third day (which is commonly accepted as Sunday), as a Baptist we recognize Sunday as our Sabbath, We celebrate our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ's day of rising from the grave on Sunday as our Sabbath.

If your religious denomination choses to worship on Saturday as your Sabbath, God Bless you.

Whatever day you chose to worship God and the Savior on let us agree that:

"This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." -Psa. 118:24

If my posts offended anybody, then I humbly apologize. I will not post in this thread again. May each one of you who want to "discuss and debate" this issue, God Bless.

I'm out of this thread.

God Bless each one of you.

The Baptists have a decidedly clear understanding of what and when the Sabbath is. Sorry you cannot accept it.

The Baptists say, “It is sometimes argued that Christ abrogated (annulled) the Mosaic law, and therefore there is no longer any obligation to keep the Sabbath; but He Himself declares that He came not to destroy the law, but to fulfil it. Notice that He never says that He abrogated the Sabbath.” Baptist Sunday School Quarterly, March 1929.
Some people say, “That is it! That is why I don’t have to keep the Sabbath. Christ fulfilled the law.” Dear friends, a crimina1 could take hold of the same kind of reasoning and say,”Well, that is it. That is why I can steal. Christ kept that commandment. I don’t have to keep it.” You see, that kind of reasoning isn’t consistent. It doesn’t add up. It isn’t logical. It isn’t Biblical.
Doctor E.T. Hiscox of the Baptist church says, “It will be said, however, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week. Earnestly desiring information on this subject... I ask, where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament, absolutely not.” From a paper read before a New York Ministers’ Conference, November 13. 1893. Dear Friends, if it isn’t in the New Testament, then it isn’t for us, as New Testament Christians. And the Bible is clear on this and evidently these different spokesmen, representing a number of different churches were also possessed of very definite convictions on this matter.

There are many mainstream denominations that agree with the Baptists.

See link: http://www.sabbathtruth.com/sabbath_books_read.asp?ID=1509



Etc.

Chamber’s Encyclopedia under the artircle, Sabbath, says, “By none of the church Fathers before the fourth century is it (Sunday) identified with the Sabbath, nor is the duty of observing it grounded by them, either on the fourth commandment, or on the precept of Christ or His apostles.” Chamber’s Encyclopedia says again, “Unquestionably the first law, either ecclesiastical or civil, by which the sabbatical observance of Sunday is known to have been ordained is the sabbatical edict of Constantine, A.D. 321.” Article, Sunday. That is a long time after the last book of the New Testament was written; after God had once and for all settled what our duty as New Testament Christians was. Sunday came in far too late to be a part of the New Testament.
 
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ThreeAM

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holo said:
If you didn't consider yourself to be under a law that says 'dont't steal', would you steal? Would you kill?

Holo I think you misunderstand what the term "under the law" means.

If we are true followers of Christ the penalty for our sins has been paid in full by Christ. Even though we are sinners we are not under the death penalty of the law. Christ died for our sins so we would not be under the death penalty.

This does not mean the law is not a reflection of God's will, it simply means that Christ's flawless record will be examined instead of yours and mine. Just because were are under Christ's grace does not mean we should continue in our sins. A true Christians will submit to the will of Christ. We should strive to become more Christ like everyday. We should be obedient not to be saved [our works can not save us] We should be obedient because we love Christ.


Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
 
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TheDag

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ThreeAM said:
You believe in Sola Scripta don't you?

Now show me where God has asked you to have your "Sabbath" on the 1st day of the week because of the resurrection. No external sources please.:) God blessed the 7th day of the week and set it asided from the other 6 days of the week by making the seventh day of the week HOLY. Please show me from the Bible where the 1st day of the week has been declared as HOLY by God.
It is clear from this that you don't understand what sola scripture is. Sola Scripture does not say the only source is the bible but rather if something contradicts the bible then the bible is the authority on the matter. So Sola scripture believers can use other sources.
 
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ThreeAM

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TheDag said:
It is clear from this that you don't understand what sola scripture is. Sola Scripture does not say the only source is the bible but rather if something contradicts the bible then the bible is the authority on the matter. So Sola scripture believers can use other sources.

Oh I understand it. I'll ask you the same question. Please support your answer from the scriptures.

"Now show me where God has asked you to have your "Sabbath" on the 1st day of the week because of the resurrection." :)

My request of DeaconDean was in response to this: "Show me in the Bible, no external sources, show me in the Bible where God gave any day a specific name, and where in the Bible does it say specificly, that Saturday is the Sabbath?" DeaconDean
 
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holo said:
If you didn't consider yourself to be under a law that says 'dont't steal', would you steal? Would you kill?

What did Paul say?

Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Paul does not want us to continue in sin.
 
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