Promises to Israel, fulfillment in the Church

Kimberlyann said:

Tychicum,

I didn't know what a preterist was before coming here.

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Oh ... that is fairly obvious ... you didn't know much of anything at all before coming here ...

OP ... means "opening post" by the way

Take if from me ... the position you are supporting is a preterist heresy.

One would think if you didn't have a clue what you were talking about you would just be honest enough to just state so ... instead of risking misleading someone. And having to be judged accordingly ...


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I especially like this one, taken from the vision of the valley of dry bones

Spoken to Israel -
"My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
-Ezekiel 37:27

Notice also the passage from the same context

"They shall live on the land which I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where their fathers lived..."

Whose fathers?

The New Testament verses quoted in the OP are quotations made from Christ, Paul, and Peter....you can't get any more othodox than them.

Of course, many in their day thought otherwise, particuarly the religious authorities in Jerusalem.

Promise to Israel -
"Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be
measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You
are not My people,' There it shall be said to them, 'You are sons of the living God.' -Hosea 1:10

Fulfillment the church -
"What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much
longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the
riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even
us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" As He says also in Hosea:
"I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved."
"And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There
they shall be called sons of the living God." -Romans :22-26

Yes, this was fulfilled with the gospel coming to the gentiles and the setting aside of israel, but if you continue reading through Hosea you will see these verses

4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Kimberlyann said:

That was harsh. Why the personal attacks? What did I do to deserve all this venom?

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Please distinguish between a PERSONAL attack and a refutation of ones BELIEF SYSTEM.

No one has attacked you PERSONALLY! Im sure you are a nice young lady. That is not the point, however. You are making statements that mislead others and that are simply NOT biblically factual. OH, yes, they are found IN the Bible, but you are putting a spin on them that isnt found there.

No one is being venomous either. We take the truth of Gods Word seriously, as should YOU. STOP teaching and sit and LISTEN. BE taught before you become a teacher. BELIEVE what the Word says to YOU...not to Israel. Its all TRUE, but its NOT true for YOU. The majority of scripture was written to the Nation ISRAEL...does this mean we discard it? NO..we study it to SEE the differences between Gods dealing with them under the LAW, and His dealing with the TWAIN made ONE under GRACE.

Dont make this a personal issue. WE are trying to show you error in your THINKING according to scripture.

Kimberlyann said:

That was harsh. Why the personal attacks? What did I do to deserve all this venom?

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What you are espousing has a name. Preterism. That is not "harsh". It is just a name.

Oh and a heresy.

It isn't some kind of judgement of mine. It is a name on a sign hanging above the line up you are standing in.

If you don't like the name on the line up ... move.

I didn't name that line up ... preterism is a defined term you can find in any number of dictionaries ...

The views of preterism and futurism deal with the interpretation of specific New Testament passages - the Olivet discourse (Matt 24; Luke 21; Mark 13) and the book of Revelation.

In the Olivet discourse, both Partial Preterists and Futurists hold that there are two basic events in view - the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD (a past event) and the Second Coming of Christ (a future event). Partial Preterists perceive that much of the Olivet discourse refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, while Futurists believe that much of the Olivet discourse refers to the events surrounding the Second Coming of Christ.

The same is true of the book of Revelation: Partial Preterists see most of it as relating to 70 AD, but they still see future events in it, especially in the latter chapters. Futurists see most of Revelation as referencing the future. Both partial preterism and futurism are found within the pale of historic Christian doctrine.

Confusion comes in with the term Full Preterism.
Full Preterists hold both the events in the Olivet discourse are one and the same: i.e., that Christ's Second Coming occurred in 70 AD. Full Preterists reject the basic Christian creeds because it explicitly excludes their view, and they have difficulty explaining the resurrection passages (among other things). A good number of Christian individuals and organizations - ChristianForums being one of them - do not view Full Preterism as falling with the pale of historic Christian doctrine.

Full Preterism and Partial Preterism are not the same view. The Partial Preterist position is definitely allowed on ChristianForums, the Full Preterism position is not.

Now the definitions of preterism don't have anything to do with how OT passages are applied/fulfilled in the NT, as the OP lists them. And, there is a big difference between an application of an OT passage and a fulfillment of an OT passage. When a NT writer like Paul said "do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain" in reference to church elders, is it fulfillment? Of course not, Paul quoted Deut 25:4 in 1 Tim 5:18 because it held forth a principal or application to the situation, not because it was a fulfillment.

Now here is Rom 9:25-26 and the Hosea passages. There is an original context in Hosea that refers to the nation of Israel, in which God shows His love for those who have gone astray from Him:

Hosea 1:9-11 Then the LORD said: "Name him 'Not My People' (Lo-Ammi), because you are not my people and I am not your God." 10 However, in the future the number of the people of Israel will be like the sand of the sea which can be neither measured nor numbered. Although it was said to them, "You are not my people," it will be said to them, "You are children of the living God!" 11 Then the people of Judah and the people of Israel will be gathered together. They will appoint for themselves one leader, and will flourish in the land. Certainly, the day of Jezreel will be great!

Non-dispensationalists, in particular those who hold that the church is a continuation of the remnant of Israel, will say that the NT passage of Romans has further expanded the meaning of the original OT Hosea passages. That is, while Hosea referred to a nation of Israel at the time, God was actually referring to His people Israel - His people the church - which in the future would include believing Gentiles. Therefore non-disps would say what Paul did in Rom 9:25-26 was a fulfillment of Hosea rather than an application, since the NT passage expanded the meaning of the OT passage.

Dispensationalists however will retain the original audience and say it refers to the nation Israel in the future. Therefore what Paul did in Rom 9:25-26 was an application of the passage, not a fulfillment - since Gentiles are not in view in Hosea. What God did was reveal He expanded His mercy to the believing Gentiles in NT times, Gentiles who were "not my people."

Lamorak Des Galis

Kimberlyann said:

The elect of all the ages are seen as one people, with one Savior, one destiny. This continuity can be shown by examining
a few Old Testament prophesies with their fulfillment.

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Good point.

Tychicum said:

Preterism is a variant of Christian eschatology which holds that some or all of the biblical prophecies concerning the Last Days (or End Times) refer to events which actually happened in the first century after Christ's birth.

The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning "past". Adherents of Preterism are known as Preterists.

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And only Full Preterists are prevented from presenting their views on this forum according to this forum's guidelines. So your implication is false that something's heretical or prohibited in the forum guidelines about all forms of preterism.

Frankly I don't see the implication that K. is a full preterist. It doesn't sound like it, and she didn't make such an assertion from what I can tell.

Preterism and Futurism [dispensational premill] were both created by Jesuits, isn't that an interesting fact, it removes the possiblity of recognizing the anti-Christ in both systems...

Something to think about.

JM said:

Preterism and Futurism [dispensational premill] were both created by Jesuits, isn't that an interesting fact, it removes the possiblity of recognizing the anti-Christ in both systems...

Something to think about.

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Why would WE need to recognize the antichrist? We wont BE here when he is revealed, but taken UP to meet OUR Lord in the air where we will be forever more.

Dispensational theology recognizes that God has INTERRUPTED His prophetic program with Israel to introduce the MYSTERY. It has been there since the world began , but ONLY in the mind of God...KEPT SECRET until due time, and then revealed.

God will again resume the unfinished program with Israel...she has yet seven years on her timetable to complete, and this is what the GREAT TRIBULATION is all about...Jacobs trouble.

So ....nothing dispensational has been cooked up by Jesuits...but in actuality, but God Himself. Studying the bible and comparing the scriptures would show any honest student of the Bible these FACTS.

eph3Nine said:

Why would WE need to recognize the antichrist? We wont BE here when he is revealed, but taken UP to meet OUR Lord in the air where we will be forever more.

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Why then would Paul give us the information he gives us in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, things that must take place before "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him"?

Looking back over your posting and the connections made with it, an odd question emerges. I look at the Apostolic quotes of the Old Testament and they're often addressed to Israel.

What dispensational program were the Apostles using to make connections between the Old Testament and the New?

What's the connection between the people God meant to address in the Old Testament, and the people God meant to address in the New Testament? Is all this typological?

Kimberlyann said:

The new Covenant in Jeremiah 31 is clearly addressed to Israel. And it is to the house of Israel that the fulfillment came.

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The New Covenant has yet to find its fulfillment, as its program has been INTERRUPTED. The prophecy program has been temporarily SET ASIDE, and will AGAIN resume when the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. When this present age of GRACE is finished, God will continue ON with the seven years remaining in of Israels final course of curses.

Kimberly...stop making these foolish, unsubstantiated claims and STUDY.

In its origin the Christian Church was an Israelitish body, qualified to claim the promises made to Israel. Once the Christian Church was established many Gentiles came into it, but that didn't make it a Church from among the Gentiles. They were all Israelite members of the Old Covenant, to whom the promises have been made. To them the believing remnant the promise of the New Covenant was fulfilled.

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This is just plain embarrassing, or it should be, to you, Kimberly. We, who are the church which is His Body have NO connection at ALL with the program God had with the Nation Israel. It is a completely NEW program, with a NEW appointed apostle...NOT the twelve...with new instructions, NOT the law, making it a NEW CREATION out of TWAIN...ONE NEW man.

Stop embarrassing yourself here. Admit you dont know what you are talking about and study, please.

It wasn't until around the spring of 30 AD that most of them that called themselves Israelites cease to be such for prophetic and covenant purpose, because they forfeited their citizenship in the commonwealth of Israel by refusing to accept the Messiah. That is when the promises and privileges of the Abrahamic Covenant went to the believing remnant, which was now true Israel and Judah, the Seed of Abraham, the Christian Church.

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YOU are not listening. We gentiles were "aliens to the covenants of promise, strangers to the commonwealth of Israel, without hope and without God" under the covenant program.

We arent IN that program today. YOU are trying to make of Israel the Body of Christ today. NOPE NOPE NOPE.

Kimberlyann said:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2 Corinthians 3 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:5 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, [/FONT]3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;* for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.




How can Paul be a minister of the new covenant if there is no new covenant in this age?

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2Cor.3:6 "Who also hath made us able ministers of THE new testament: not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life" (KJV)

2Cor.3:6 "He has made us competent as ministers of A new covenant-not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" (NIV).

2Cor.3:6 "Who also made us sufficient minnsters of A new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kissl but the Spirit gives life" (Greek NT).

You should notice that the NIV and the Greek NT render the covenant as A new covenant, whereas the KJV renders it as THE new testament. IMHO I believe that the NIV and Greek NT is a more accurate translation.

I will copy a portion of the commentary of 2Cor.3:6 by Dr. Ernest R. Campbell, founder and presesident of Canyon View Bible College.

(I will omit the words written in the Greek language, and place () where those words were omitted.)

(SNIP)
Next we observe that they were made sufficient minsiters of "a new covenant" (). It is interesting that according to the Greek text Paul does not say tha he is a minister of the new covenant, but of a new covenant. If he had in mind the covenant promised to Israel in the Old Testament, we would anticipate that he would have used the phrase the new covenant. It is true that the Gospel of Grace as it pertains to salvation has roots in the Old Testament, but the Gospel of Grase as it pertains to the Mystery is totally absent from the Old Testament. Since Paul and those associated with him were ministers of the Gospel of salvation and the mystery, we would not expect them to be ministers of the prophesied new covenant (Jer. 31:33; Matt.26:28; Heb.8:10). Paul affirms that they are not, but that God made them sufficient ministers of a different covenant,[/b] a new covenant.

This new covenant of which the Apostle Paul was made a minister is not the "letter" (), that which is written in the Mosaic Law, BUT () in strong contrast, he is a minister of a covenant of the Spirit. In verse 3 and in verses 7-8, against the background of the Law, Paul exalts the superiority of God's ministry of the Spirit, thruth revealed to and through him for the Church, the Body of Christ. It is impossible for a person who understands the glorious TRUTH OF THE MYSTERY to comprehend why one would try to put himself under the Law. The only answer is-such a person must be totally ignorant of the Mystery, God's plan and purpose for the Chruch.
(SNIP)

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!