Why?
Or, a better question, why not create a universe where all souls go to heaven?
Or, a better question, why not create a universe where all souls go to heaven?
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Does God know/see the future?
- Thread starter Childlike
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Which is sort of what free-will is about, don't you think? I know that from God's perspective, nothing can seem like free-will, since He knows everything that will happen before it does. God also holds the authority to intervene at whatever time he'd like to over-throw the natural course that we would take ourselves because of his own purposes. Example would be Saul/Paul. There are apparently others that he creates with full knowledge of their choice, and does not intervene, and lets them take the natural course of their own decisions.
We aren't debating God knowing and creating those that will go to Hell...as far as I know.
Okay, what if we had a pet turtle. We take our little turtle outside and put it at the beginning of a little road. we really want to turtle to know enough to run to the end of the road, but we know that it will probalby run off to the side of the road instead. We let the turtle go. To get the turtle to go anywhere but the natural couse, I will have intervene and push or drag the turtle along to the end of the road. If I let the turtle go its natural course (to the side of the road) then I have allowed the turtle to take its own natural course. Did I have the power to stop it? yes! but that would violate the way the turtle wanted to go.
I still see a slight (but huge) difference between "allow" and "make". If I allow you to do whatever you wish without stopping it, who's responsiblity is it? If you were a 2 year old, I can see the problem. The issue is, we are not two year olds. We are rational adults with the ability to choose God or reject Him. Its the first cause of things...God doesn't say "I am going to create Carrie Bradley because I want to send someone to Hell" He says "I am going to create Carrie Bradley, because I have a purpose in her being on earth. She will choose to reject me, even tho I have given her all she needs to know the truth and accept me. I will not intervene, I will allow her choice to be her choice"
or He can say: "Carrie Bradley would choose Hell if I created her, and because I dislike that, I am going to not create her at all"
I honestly don't think God could say "I will change her choice, because like i've said before, to change my choice would be to take away who I am. I would no longer be who I am, but a different person.
In control of, yes. ultimatley responsible for? no. I don't think that circumstances make a choice for you. God has a puropse for you, even if you are evil. Perhaps you will have offspring that will be saved, perhaps you affect someone so that they will be saved. He has you here because you are supposed to be here at this time and this place. but strip that all away, and regardless of who you are and where you are, every single person has the fundamental choice. Right now, I am constantly making choices. God knows what I will do before I do it, but that doesn't mean that he makes the choice for me. That is such an important difference.
thats for sure.
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Of course not!
[/QUOTE]
Perhaps. But we still know that somehow He knows. Even if we can't know How he knows, he knows. He says so. Here is one of the most difficult passages in scripture (in my opinion), but it is very clear:
Romans 9:10-22
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Maybe we are. You are saying that God gave them the choice to choose hell, I am saying God created them to go to hell.
There is a difference to us because we are finite beings with limited ability. But God is different.
Suppose there was a person dangling from a cliff. And you see him and are in a position to save him. Let's say you don't and he falls to his death. Are you responsible? Maybe, maybe not. But suppose you know with absolute certainty that he will die if you don't help him. And you know with absolute certainty that if you do help him, he will live. If you choose not to help him, are you responsible? I would say absolutely.
But God has an even further level of responsiblity. Suppose not only could you help that man, but you created gravity and created the human body to not be able to withstand great falls. Suppose you created the whole concept of dying and living. I think your responsibility would be even greater then.
But God is the one who created the first version of you, what does matter if He changes it? Who is the master, God or His plan?
Couldn't God have constructed a universe where evil would not be necessary at all? If so, why didn't He? If He could save everyone and wishes everyone to be saved, it is irrational that He wouldn't do it.
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Good illustration! (I am not Doc, but...)
What do you think of the last part of Rom. 4:17's verse for our 'meat fed' diet? Also comes to mind Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:14-15? Pastor N.B.
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btw-
just wanted to take a time out to wish everyone here a very happy and blessed 4th of july!
just wanted to take a time out to wish everyone here a very happy and blessed 4th of july!
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Hey Doc,
it's really hot here in boston, and i'm getting ready to go see the pops, so i can't spend too much time answering all the points right now.
however, there is one thing that i would like to attempt to address: you seem to be asking "why couldn't God create a different world" or at least create people differently so that they would choose him. I think part of the answer to that question is that God desired to create us in his own image. This means that we have certain limited attributes that God has. Our existence, like Gods is relational. a loving relationship (which God desires) does not work without the freedom of the person to choose. also, to be created in God's image we must be able to choose because he is able to choose. God is all powerful, yes. but I believe that in a certain way, he allows his omnipotence to be defeated in order to allow our power of choice to prevail.
Yes, we agree that God creates people knowing that they, in their own power will choose to reject him. God just sees our choice before we make it. This does not mean that the choice is taken away from us, he just knows the choice that we will make, and allows us to make the choice that we will make. Why would he bring someone that makes the choice to reject him in the world? Well, its very difficult once you start getting beyond 2 or 3 people, because we are here to impact eachother. Perhaps Gods intent is to get as many souls into heaven as possible, and if that means creating some he knows will reject him to serve his own purposes...so be it.
Just like in Romans (which i posted above), God used Pharoh's hard heartedness to demonstrate to the Israelites that he was in fact God. Maybe millions of people were saved by Pharoh's own choice to hate God and not listen to him.
it's really hot here in boston, and i'm getting ready to go see the pops, so i can't spend too much time answering all the points right now.
however, there is one thing that i would like to attempt to address: you seem to be asking "why couldn't God create a different world" or at least create people differently so that they would choose him. I think part of the answer to that question is that God desired to create us in his own image. This means that we have certain limited attributes that God has. Our existence, like Gods is relational. a loving relationship (which God desires) does not work without the freedom of the person to choose. also, to be created in God's image we must be able to choose because he is able to choose. God is all powerful, yes. but I believe that in a certain way, he allows his omnipotence to be defeated in order to allow our power of choice to prevail.
Yes, we agree that God creates people knowing that they, in their own power will choose to reject him. God just sees our choice before we make it. This does not mean that the choice is taken away from us, he just knows the choice that we will make, and allows us to make the choice that we will make. Why would he bring someone that makes the choice to reject him in the world? Well, its very difficult once you start getting beyond 2 or 3 people, because we are here to impact eachother. Perhaps Gods intent is to get as many souls into heaven as possible, and if that means creating some he knows will reject him to serve his own purposes...so be it.
Just like in Romans (which i posted above), God used Pharoh's hard heartedness to demonstrate to the Israelites that he was in fact God. Maybe millions of people were saved by Pharoh's own choice to hate God and not listen to him.
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He never does that.
He doesn't make you choose ANYTHING! But He can use your choices to let His will be done.
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Because God lets us choose whether we want to be with Him in Heaven or not. He didnt create robots, He created humans with free-will.
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Never? So, do you reject any experience where someone claims that God spoke to them? Afterall, if He never intervenes...
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This is total BS. God wants everyone to CHOOSE to go to Heaven.
Because He doesn't want robots.
This makes no sense at all. It is illogical to think we have free-will, but expect everyone to be saved anyway.
You choose Heaven, or you choose Hell. Take your pick.
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A person 'chooses' to go to hell, in the same way that a person 'chooses' to be tortured and killed for refusing to submit to the will of an evil tyrant.
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No you think you know you are right. I, on the other hand, am over here cracking up!
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Oh, I see now. You have no real reason to believe that I'm wrong, but you do, just because. And you think that I'm the one who needs to grow up?
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Originally posted by Neo
Oh, I see now. You have no real reason to believe that I'm wrong, but you do, just because. And you think that I'm the one who needs to grow up?
You do.
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