The Believers of the Great Tribulation

I will also be watching this thread, and stand with Yauming and Mandy.

If you are not able to get your point across, without being rude and caustic, this thread will be closed. Consider this a final warning. The next person who violates forum rules in this thread, will banned for two weeks.


John

...There's over 30 things stated by prooftext in the original post...

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I personally don't believe that the Bible says those of us in the tribulation with the faith of Jesus will not be Christians.

To begin with the word Christian simply means follower of Jesus. If a Jew is a follower of Jesus He will definately be among the saved.

The other truth is there is no difference made between Gentiles and Jews. All are Jews if they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

In AD 34 when the Nation of Israel officially rejected the gospel message.Until that time the disciples were to preach to the Jews first. "Go not into the way of the Gentiles,... But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matt.10:5,6

Jesus had made it very clear that the special status of the Jewish nation would be revoked if the people persisted in rejecting the Messiah. "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Matt. 21:43

Now what is this other "nation" spoken of in Matt. 21:43? "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal.3:29.... Now it appears to me that Israel here means any that are Christ's, not just the nation of Israel. It also says that those that are Christ's are Abrahams seed and will receive the same promise that once belonged to the nation of Israel.

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; ... But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly". Rom. 2:28,29 In other words if we are Jewish by blood it means nothing, It is what we are inward. If we are not Christ's we are not Jews, even if we were born one.

In 34AD with the stoning of Stephen the literal Jewish nation longer was the only Chosen of God. Because they consistently resisted God's plan for them, the nation of Israel in no longer the central focus of end-time prophecy. Now all who accept Jesus are His chosen and the promises God made to literal Israel now also apply to spiritual Isarel.(Rom. 9:6-8). The only ones exempt from these promises are those that do not totally accept christ, otherwise no one would be.

Go for it Carl , don't let em get away without any verses to prooftex it .
Some of these people can be very shiffty .

Matt. 21:43...The kingdom of God shallbe taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

In this text Jesus made it very clear that the special status of the Jewish nation would be revoked if the people kept on rejecting the Messiah.

As far as the word spiritual Jew, why should those words be litterally mentioned in the Good Book? Most every one believes in a rapture of some sort, and the word rapture isn't in the book.....

Most believe in a mellinium of some sort, and the word millenium isn't mentioned either. It is no different with the word spiritual Jew.

Gal.3: 26-29
For ye are al the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ;s, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Jewish nation no longer is top dog so to speak it is all those that are in Christ and they only. If a Jew accepts Christ then they to will receive eternal life.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Gather, but by me...It is only thru faith in Christ we will receive eternal life. (Jew or Gentile.)There is no more distinction between the two.

From this text there is only one way to God the Father and that is thru Jesus. Now any that do not accept Jesus as their saviour will not be among the saved in any way shape or form. The resurrected righteous and living righteous at the second coming of Christ are those that believe in Christ(Christians). If they do not then they are the unrighteous, there is no inbetween in Rev. You are either righteous, or unrighteous.

Those in Rev. then that make it are those that "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.(Rev. 12:17)...Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Rev. 14:12)........Those that do not possess this will not make it to eternal life no if ands or buts about it.

Originally posted by rainbow promise

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Gather, but by me...It is only thru faith in Christ we will receive eternal life. (Jew or Gentile.)There is no more distinction between the two.

Those in Rev. then that make it are those that "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.(Rev. 12:17)...Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Rev. 14:12)........Those that do not possess this will not make it to eternal life no if ands or buts about it.

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If only faith in Christ can get one to heaven, then how did the prophet Daniel enter. He was promised an inheritance after his old age. There are many old testament saints that will be in heaven and never even heard of Jesus in their whole lifetimes. The Jews under the law were forgiven just as we are. The main difference was that our forgiveness was done once for all and for all time, but the Jews had to renew their forgiveness every year. In this age we are no longer under the law, but after the rapture Israel will rebuild their temple and sacrifice again, and God will honor them again. The anti-christ will put a stop to this sacrifice, but God has still promised to save them.

Now I have a question for you. Where in your bible did you ever get the idea that the church is now Israel?? Israel is being punished, but no one will ever take her place. God is married to Israel. They are separated, not divorced. Jesus' Bride will come from the church. Israel the woman bore the Son. Do you also believe that the Son would try to steal His Fathers wife?? God never gave Israel a certificate of divorce. You people need to wake up. Are you another preterist??

...Replacement theology...

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Can anyone come to the Father apart from faith in Christ?

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:7).

"By the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole... Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10, 12).

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:6).

Can anyone have faith in Christ without being part of the church?

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Ephesians 4:4-5), which body is the church: "the church, which is his body" (Ephesians 1:22-23).

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16).

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him" (Romans 10:12).

"Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).

Originally posted by postrib
Can anyone come to the Father apart from faith in Christ?

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:7).

"By the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole... Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10, 12).

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:6).

Can anyone have faith in Christ without being part of the church?

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Ephesians 4:4-5), which body is the church: "the church, which is his body" (Ephesians 1:22-23).

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16).

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him" (Romans 10:12).

"Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).

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What exactly are you saying?  Those verses do not "prove" replacement theology.  Once again, we do not become Israel.  God is not through with the nation of Israel as scripture shows.  Simply look at the 144,000 from the 12 tribes in Revelation.  It is not a matter of salvation apart from Christ, it is a matter of there still being a distinction between the unbelieving nation of Israel and the church.  There is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ.  After the rapture, God will once again turn to deal with Israel.

Originally posted by carlaimpinge

There is NO mention of the body of Christ in John's Revelation

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The absence of the word "church" (or an explicit reference to the Body of Christ) after a certain point in the book of Revelation doesn't tell you anything about whether or not the church is raptured or when. IMO it is more compelling, although certainly not conclusive, to theorize when the rapture occurs and then look to see if there is any mention of the church before or after that event in Revelation to see if those mentions confirm or refute your conclusion. But just noting the absence of a reference to the Body of Christ after a certain point doesn't tell you anything about WHEN, after that point, the church is raptured (assuming it is raptured after that point at all).

Originally posted by carlaimpinge

These guys are preachers [during the great tribulation]. The ONLY Jewish brethren left identified are those which you find within Revelation, the 144,000.

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Here is where I think you go astray. The 144,000 are sealed as the Day of the Lord begins. You are assuming that the great tribulation continues from this point forward, so you place the 144,000 within the great tribulation.

But the Day of the Lord marks the END of the great tribulation. So anything that occurs AFTER this point is no longer "during" the great tribulation.

Matthew 24
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
...
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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So let's put those signs in the context of Revelation:

Revelation 6
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. [...] 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

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Revelation 7
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed

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There you have it in plain language that the signs of the Day of the Lord occur IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION, and AFTER THAT, the 144,000 are sealed for protection during the time of God's wrath.

Now, if you really want to base your conclusions on when a word is no longer used (I don't suggest this, but just so you can see another application of it), then notice that the word "tribulation" does not occur after the Day of the Lord except to say that the multitude has COME OUT of the great tribulation. This is no longer referred to as a time of tribulation, but the DAY OF HIS WRATH.

The one merit this has is that it harmonizes perfectly with Scripture. We are never told we will be spared tribulation, but we ARE told that we are not appointed to wrath.

So this may very well be WHY the church is not mentioned after the Day of the Lord...because the great tribulation is over, and the time of wrath has begun.

This is something you, yourself, point out.

Originally posted by carlaimpinge

[The Body of Christ/church] was GATHERED BEFORE the day of the Lord.

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I agree. But according to Jesus in Matthew 24, that's the moment the great tribulation ENDED.

Originally posted by carlaimpinge

The day of the Lord STARTS the great tribulation, which is the time of the woman in travail. (1 Thess.5) Sorry. You messed up again.

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On the contrary, it is a perfectly orderly reading of what the text says in black and white (and red, depending on your edition). If you truly believe otherwise, please provide prooftexts for your conclusion.

If you assert that the Day of the Lord begins the great tribulation, then you have created a contradiction in the Bible.

Jesus clearly places the beginning of the Great Tribulation immediately AFTER the abomination of desolation, when the man of sin is revealed.

Then Jesus says immediately AFTER the distress/tribulation of those days, the celestials signs occur (sun dark, moon blood, etc).

THOSE SIGNS signal the beginning of the Day of the Lord's wrath, according to the book of Revelation and many OT texts. THIS ORDER is confirmed in no uncertain terms in other OT texts, such as Joel 2:31 (quoted in Acts 2).

As further confirmation, note that 2 Thessalonians also speaks of the Day of the Lord as a separate event that occurs AFTER the abomination of desolation (when the man of sin is revealed), which is the event that triggers the Great Tribulation.

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

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So the Bible consistently puts the events in this order:

Abomination -> Great Trib -> Celestial signs -> Day of Lord's Wrath

So the Day of the Lord, which is introduced by the celestial signs CANNOT be the same thing as the beginning of the great tribulation, nor can it describe the ENTIRE Great Tribulation if it comes AFTER it.

Finally, the Bible not only fails to support the conclusion that the Day of the Lord is equal to the Great Tribulation (the time of Jacob's trouble), Obadiah 1:15-17 identifies this as the time when Jacob is rewarded with his inheritance AFTER the time of Jacob's trouble.

The day of the Lord is near for all nations. As you have done, it will be done to you [the nations]... But on Mount Zion will be deliverance; it will be holy, and the house of Jacob will possess its inheritance.

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This is a consistent theme. In the OT, the Day of the Lord does not describe the events associated with the Great Tribulation, such as the desecration of the temple, seige on Jerusalem, etc. Rather, the Day of the Lord is identified with God's wrath on the nations (and apostate Israel) and the deliverance of and vindication of the remnant of Israel (most likely the 144,000 who are sealed for protection)! This is a time of wrath on the nations that is for the vindication, protection, and deliverance of Israel in preparation for her King!



Here are some of my prooftexts.

Note the consistent pattern here:

1. The Day of the Lord's wrath is directly from God, not from an antichrist

2. It comes upon the nations, not just Israel

3. Israel (or a remnant) is vindicated and protected

4. THE SAME CELESTIAL EVENTS ARE ALWAYS ASSOCIATED WITH AND PRECEED THE DAY OF THE LORD

5. "The Day of the Lord" is ALWAYS IDENTIFIED AS A TIME OF ANGER AND WRATH

That's not to say that people will not experience distress -- see Zeph 1:14. But even there is is described as a RESULT of God's active judgement and wrath against the nations. It does NOT read like a description of a period of great tribulation during which God simply PERMITS the antichrist to be successful and the consequential persecution.

Isaiah 9
6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty.

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Isaiah 13
9 See, the day of the Lord is coming-a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger-to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.
10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.
11 I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless.

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Ezekiel 7
19 They will throw their silver into the streets, and their gold will be an unclean thing. Their silver and gold will not be able to save them in the day of the LORD 's wrath.

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Ezekiel 30
3 For the day is near, the day of the LORD is near-a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations.

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Joel 2
31 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

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Joel 3
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine.
16 The Lord will roar from Zion and thunder from Jerusalem; the earth and the sky will tremble. But the Lord will be a refuge for his people, a stronghold for the people of Israel.

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Amos 5
18 Woe to you who long for the day of the Lord! Why do you long for the day of the Lord? That day will be darkness, not light.

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Obadiah 1
15 "The day of the Lord is near for all nations. As you have done, it will be done to you; your deeds will return upon your own head.
16 Just as you drank on my holy hill, so all the nations will drink continually; they will drink and drink and be as if they had never been.
17 But on Mount Zion will be deliverance; it will be holy, and the house of Jacob will possess its inheritance.

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Zephaniah 1
14 "The great day of the Lord is near-near and coming quickly. Listen! The cry on the day of the Lord will be bitter, the shouting of the warrior there.
15 That day will be a day of wrath, a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness,
16 a day of trumpet and battle cry against the fortified cities and against the corner towers.
17 I will bring distress on the people and they will walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord. Their blood will be poured out like dust and their entrails like filth.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the Lord 's wrath.

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Psalm 110
5 The Lord is at your right hand; he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.
6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.

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By the way...some direct responses:

Originally posted by carlaimpinge

Your NEXT mistake is "thinking" Revelation is chrononlogical in ACTUAL EVENTS stated. It is chronological, IN JOHN's "witnessing" of the visions contained. He wrote it, in the order he saw it, NOT in the actuality of the timing of the events stated.

You should know that.

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Of course I know that. And it would actually mean something if that was the only place you could find this chronology. But it isn't.

Matthew 24
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
...
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

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Joel 2
31 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

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These are not "observations" by John. The order of these events are clearly stated. THEN there will be great tribulation. IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation there will be the celestial signs. The celestial signs will appear BEFORE the Day of the Lord. One cannot explain away or change this order without torturing the text.

Originally posted by carlaimpinge

The day of the Lord STARTS with the invasion of Jerusalem, NOT the coming of the Lord AFTER the great tribulation. (Zech.14:1-2) That is 42 months before the coming of the Lord. (Rev.`11, Luke 21, Dan.8,9,11, 2 Thess.2)

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Zechariah 14:1-2 is actually the only quote you've provided that seems to suggest that the Day of the Lord encompasses the same period as the great tribulation. So let's have a look.

Zechariah 14
1 A day of the Lord is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle.

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First, while the definite article "the" exists in the Biblical Hebrew language, it is not used in this particular text in verse 1. (Other translations say "The day of the Lord - the NIV accurately says "A day of the Lord").

But the NIV inaccurately assumes the word "when" in verse 1. This word also exists in Biblical Hebrew. But is not actually present in the text. There is no "when" in the text to connect "day of the Lord" to "plunder."

These are the only two words that could twist the text to suggest that the Day of the Lord and the great tribulation are the same thing. When you strip them out, all you have left is a narrative of the great tribulation and the Day of the Lord which describes them IN THE SAME ORDER as Jesus did, and the same way I laid out the order using multiple texts.

Contrast this exegesis with my use of Joel 2:31, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD." Here, the word "before" separates the order of the signs of the Day of the Lord with the actual event. In this case, however, the word DOES appear in the text. It has NOT been added by a translator.

Originally posted by carlaimpinge

The Lord Jesus IS NOT SPEAKING of the body of Christ in Matt.24. IT HAS NOT BEEN REVEALED.

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Huh? By the same reasoning, Hosea 2:23 could not possibly be talking about the body of Christ because it has not yet been revealed by Paul. Yet Paul quotes it in Romans as part of his revelation of the body of Christ.

Hosea 2
23 I will plant her for myself in the land; I will show my love to the one I called 'Not my loved one.' I will say to those called 'Not my people, ' 'You are my people'; and they will say, 'You are my God.' "

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