Rapture?

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adam332

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sawdust said:
I am trying to understand what you are saying so I can see in my mind what you see but frankly, it's wierd. It doesn't make any sense. And the worse thing is you don't even seem to be aware of it. :scratch:

You keep saying we will be judging through the millienium but there is no-one left on earth to judge and no-one but the righteous in heaven. The righteous do not need to be judged.

I am trying to see what you are saying but I cannot make head nor tail of it.

peace


How can it be weird....

Rev. 19
we see the coming of Christ(v.11),
we see the saints in the air with Christ(v.14),
we see the destruction of the wicked(v.15-21).

Rev. 20
we see saints sitting on thrones judging with Christ for a millennium(v. 4-6),
we see the millennium end(v. 7),
we see the wicked raised up,(v. 8-9, 13),
we see them destroyed in the second death, (v. 9-10, 14-15 ).

Rev. 21
we see a New Heavens and Earth(v.1).

Now, all that aside because I'm sure you have some disagreement with something there. We do have a common foundation that we can work from to gain this greater understanding which you have implied that I lack and which you possess.

So I will ask again, just as I have pleaded with Genez...

You think that Rev 20 gives some details that will occur during the millenial reign, so do I. So this is our foundation. However that passage does not tell us where the reign will be.

You do not have to contend with a single facet of what I believe. All I'm asking is....

What passages you have found that show those same terms, images and events(from Rev. 20) that gives you; the impression the "reign" will be on earth?

And, tell me what passages you have found that show those same terms, images and events(from Rev. 20) that tells you; what those reigning with Christ are judging?
 
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adam332

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Genez,
You think that Rev 20 gives some details that will occur during the millenial reign, so do I. So this is our foundation. However that passage does not tell us where the reign will be.

You do not have to contend with a single facet of what I believe. All I'm asking is....

What passages you have found that show those same terms, images, and events(from Rev. 20) that gives you; the impression the "reign" will be on earth?

And, tell me what passages you have found that show those same terms, images, and events(from Rev. 20) that tells you; what those reigning with Christ are judging?
 
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adam332

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Edial said:
How do we know where the reign will not be?

The Bible identifies that the time which the saints sit on thrones and judge as occurring in the "kingdom of heaven".

What I mean is this. If there is a new Earth and the kingdom of God will include it, why wont the reigning be done from that Earth?
Or from Heaven? Or both?

There will not be a new earth during the millennium. The coming of Christ leaves this earth "void and without form". The new earth occurs after the millennium.

Now, do we believe that Christ will physically descend on the Earth and do the reigning?
Why not?
He's done that before.

When? He came as a humble servant and sacrificed himself, all the while his people didn't understand why their Messiah wasn't physically delivering them from their oppressors. The last time he appeared the crowd called for Barabbas, not their Messiah.

It does not say that we will reign over anyone, but simply that we will reign WITH him. By his side, glorified, as priests, judging, on thrones.
 
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Edial

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adam332 said:
The Bible identifies that the time which the saints sit on thrones and judge as occurring in the "kingdom of heaven".
OK. But isn't the Kingdom of Heaven coming down?



adam332 said:
There will not be a new earth during the millennium. The coming of Christ leaves this earth "void and without form". The new earth occurs after the millennium.
The New earth will be created after the Millenium. yes.

However, the only 2 references to tohu-bohu "void and without form" that I know of are in Genesis and Jeremiah 4.
Where do you see that happening at the 2nd coming?



adam332 said:
When? He came as a humble servant and sacrificed himself, all the while his people didn't understand why their Messiah wasn't physically delivering them from their oppressors. The last time he appeared the crowd called for Barabbas, not their Messiah.
Well, yes. He came in the body. He departed in the body and he will come back again in the body.
The 2nd coming.

adam332 said:
It does not say that we will reign over anyone, but simply that we will reign WITH him. By his side, glorified, as priests, judging, on thrones.
Yes.
And this reigning is certainly not limited (in my opinion) to a specified location whether it be a heaven or New Earth, or cosmos.

Since the Kingdom of Heaven will encompass all things, all creation.

Thanks,
Ed
 
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GenemZ

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adam332 said:
Genez,
You think that Rev 20 gives some details that will occur during the millenial reign, so do I. So this is our foundation. However that passage does not tell us where the reign will be.


It does not tell us where? HMMmmmm....



Acts 1:8-11 (New International Version)
"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."


After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

He is coming back to earth! :)


Hang on to your seats, folks!

This is only a drill.


Grace and peace, GeneZ
 
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adam332

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genez said:
[/font]

It does not tell us where? HMMmmmm....



Acts 1:8-11 (New International Version)
"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."


After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

He is coming back to earth! :)


Hang on to your seats, folks!

This is only a drill.


Grace and peace, GeneZ

Still waiting for a response to THIS...

Genez,
You think that Rev 20 gives some details that will occur during the millenial reign, so do I. So this is our foundation. However that passage does not tell us where the reign will be.

You do not have to contend with a single facet of what I believe. All I'm asking is....

What passages you have found that show those same terms, images, and events(from Rev. 20) that gives you; the impression the "reign" will be on earth?

And, tell me what passages you have found that show those same terms, images, and events(from Rev. 20) that tells you; what those reigning with Christ are judging?
 
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adam332

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Edial said:
OK. But isn't the Kingdom of Heaven coming down?

After the millennium. New Jerusalem will set down.




The New earth will be created after the Millenium. yes.

However, the only 2 references to tohu-bohu "void and without form" that I know of are in Genesis and Jeremiah 4.
Where do you see that happening at the 2nd coming?

That would be Jer. 4. There are plenty of other areas that describe the same utter destruction of the world that is the only one that describes it the same as prior to creation.

Well, yes. He came in the body. He departed in the body and he will come back again in the body.
The 2nd coming.

But you also said he came and "reigned". I don't deny his appearance here in the past and I do not deny it in the future, but he didn't reign here as you implied was my point.

Yes.
And this reigning is certainly not limited (in my opinion) to a specified location whether it be a heaven or New Earth, or cosmos.

It says we will reign, sit on thrones, and judge with Christ. Wherever Christ is during this period it appears that's where we will be. According to the only scripture that shows saints judging on thrones, with mention of location, it is in the "kingdom of heaven".

Since the Kingdom of Heaven will encompass all things, all creation.

It says; kingdom of heaven, and in another place it says the "kingdom of God", and in another "my kingdom", and in a fourth it satys that the saints won't judge until they possess "the kingdom". God has only one city that is his, not built by man but by God, that city bears his name. That is the kingdom referred to in the passages I've quoted.

May I suggest that a thorugh study on New Jerusalem may clarify the terminology and context of the way this city was spoken of.
 
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GenemZ

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adam332 said:
Still waiting for a response to THIS...

Genez,
You think that Rev 20 gives some details that will occur during the millenial reign, so do I. So this is our foundation. However that passage does not tell us where the reign will be.


I think you have imposed your own interpreration onwhat you want to believe. To be honest? It seems too far gone to want to reason with what you want to believe. So, I am content to leave you where you want to be as I continue to supply points that show you are simply wrong. Such as (what you just ignored),,,

Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

Can you read that? Please, read it again. He will come back to the earth the same way he left.

Why bother with addressing all your points as you keep asking me to? When the one I just gave nullifies your conclusion? Why should I have to try?

That is the point you have been missing. You keep addressing certain points and want me to show you how it can not be so, when in one plainly spoken passage it shows what ever those passage are really speaking about? It can not mean what you claim. Its really that simple. :)




You do not have to contend with a single facet of what I believe. All I'm asking is....

What passages you have found that show those same terms, images, and events(from Rev. 20) that gives you; the impression the "reign" will be on earth?

The disciples kept asking Jesus about when he would set up his kingdom. They were taught about the Messiah reigning on earth, for it is taught in the Torah!

Isaiah 9:6-7 (New International Version)

"For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this."



David's throne was on the earth! The Jews knew that the Messiah was promised through David's seed, and Mary was a descendent of David, as well. That is why Jews cried out and called Jesus, "Son of David." For on David's throne was promised that the Messiah would sit someday!

The Millennium was a norm to the Jews. They were already expecting it. The earth will become transformed for that 1000 years.

The Jews were waiting for this! Because it was already promised in the Torah!

Isaiah 65:20-27 (New International Version)

"Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his

years;

he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.



They will build houses and dwell in them; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.

For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the works of their hands.



They will not toil in vain
or bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed

by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them.


Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.

The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
but dust will be the serpent's food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,"
says the LORD."




That shows life on a new earth... And, death will still exist!

an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his

years;

he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.




You keep wanting to concentrate on this "judging issue," and I am not wasting time with it, because what I have been showing you reveals that what you are trying to make happen, just will not.

In Christ, GeneZ
 
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Linda63

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Yes there is a Rapture--it is imminent, praise the Lord!!

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (1 Thessalonians 4:13)

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (1 Thessalonians 4:14)

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (1 Thessalonians 4:15)

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (1 Thessalonians 1:10)

The tribulation (Time of Jacob's Trouble - Jeremiah 30:7) is God's judgment on the Christ rejecting world and at that time Daniel's 70th week will begin, and the "times of the Gentiles" will end with the Second Coming of Christ. At that time He will set up the Millennial Kingdom and Christ will reign for a literal 1,000 years on this earth from Jerusalem.
 
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Linda63

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Originally Posted by: BarbB

Oh you are soooo mistaken.

While I believe and my hope is in a pre-Tribulation rapture and my lamp is full of oil, that doesn't mean that I'm not out evangelizing. What life of sloth? You don't know me or my activities for the Kingdom of God.

:amen: You are correct BarbB--the Rapture is imminent--we are to be ready (our lamps full of oil)-- Jesus will come as a "thief in the night" for those who are not expecting Him. Don't you just love that song by R.E. Winsett, "Jesus Is Coming Soon"?
 
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Edial

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holdon said:
Edial said:
If you are telling me that the ones waiving the palm branches, wearing white robes that were washed in the blood of the Lamb are not the church, then we have redefined the church.
How so? You're not saying that only the church waives palm branches, no?
Palm branches are associated with Jesus Christ.
JN 12:12 The next day the great crowd that had come for the Feast heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem. 13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting,
"Hosanna! "
"Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!"
"Blessed is the King of Israel!"

So is in the Revelation -
REV 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb."

And the white robes washed in the blood of the Lamb certainly have to do with Christ.

holdon said:
Edial said:
I am not saying that they are raptured out of the great tribulation. I am saying that the church is NOT raptured prior to the great trobulation and exists during it.
They simply died during the tribulation and went to heaven.



That's not what I am saying. You misunderstood.
What I am saying is that there are believers that die naturally, outside of the resurrection of the dead and rapture. And these wind up in heaven, as the elders have.

How? And what is your Scriptural basis for that?
Scriptural basis for what?
For the fact that believers die and go to heaven?
If you are asking evidence for the Church being in the Tribulation, this needs to be disproven by pre-trib rapture advocates Scripturally.



holdon said:
In Rev 7 I see 3 groups: a multitude from the nations; a large group from Israel; the elders. All are clearly distinguished from eachother. The Church is known to make no difference between Jew and Gentile. So, these first 2 groups that are identified as being from one and the other and separate from eachother, cannot be the church. So, logically only the elders can represent the Church....
I do not understand.
The Christians that waive palm branches in John and the multitudes doing the same thing in the Revelation are doing it to the same Christ.
If they are doing that to Christ, they are Christians.
If they are Christians they came out of the great tribulation in which they originally were.

Thanks,
Ed
 
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tulc said:
So...anyone believe in the Rapture?
tulc(just curious) :)

I love Escoltology debates :)

Paul says we will be "caught up" so I beleive in a form of rapture, I don't think I agree with the hardcore veiw of alot of endtime scholars but I beleive that Jesus will come again and take me into paradise and thats all I need to know and thats all I wanna know, it's an awsome promise:)
 
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Edial

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adam332 said:
After the millennium. New Jerusalem will set down.
OK.

adam332 said:
That would be Jer. 4. There are plenty of other areas that describe the same utter destruction of the world that is the only one that describes it the same as prior to creation.
I do not get your point.

Are you holding to a Gap theory?


adam332 said:
But you also said he came and "reigned". I don't deny his appearance here in the past and I do not deny it in the future, but he didn't reign here as you implied was my point.
When I said he reigned I meant from from a prophetic perspective that he will reign.



adam332 said:
It says we will reign, sit on thrones, and judge with Christ. Wherever Christ is during this period it appears that's where we will be. According to the only scripture that shows saints judging on thrones, with mention of location, it is in the "kingdom of heaven".
Well, yes.

adam332 said:
It says; kingdom of heaven, and in another place it says the "kingdom of God", and in another "my kingdom", and in a fourth it satys that the saints won't judge until they possess "the kingdom".
Well, Kingdom of Heaven is found only in Matthew. And it is coming down.

Kingdom of God is only for the born-again believers -
JN 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "
JN 3:4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
JN 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

We will inherit it -
1CO 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

And we will judge with Christ wherever he is.

And the Kingdom of God certainly includes the Kingdom of Heaven that is coming down.


adam332 said:
God has only one city that is his, not built by man but by God, that city bears his name. That is the kingdom referred to in the passages I've quoted.

May I suggest that a thorugh study on New Jerusalem may clarify the terminology and context of the way this city was spoken of.
Well, in Ezekiel 43 Christ will rule from New Jerusalem forever.

But how is it that you appear to be saying that the Kingdom of God is somehow limited to New Jerusalem?

Are you saying that?



JN 18:36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Although he is stating that it is not of this world, he certainly appears to be saying that it is a temporary condition with the word "now".

MK 12:6 "He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, `They will respect my son.'
MK 12:7 "But the tenants said to one another, `This is the heir. Come, let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 8 So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.
MK 12:9 "What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.

And the vineyard is certainly his.

The Kingdom of God will be everywhere.

Thanks,
Ed
 
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sawdust

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Edial said:
Hah! :) You surprised me with that question. :)

I'm full of surprises. ;)


However, we know that in heaven there will be no males nor females. That is clear.

I assume you say that based on this verse? (maybe)

At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. Matt.22:30

The only thing I see clear is that there is no marriage in heaven. At least, no marriage between individuals because there is going to be only one marriage. ie the Lamb and His bride.

If Jesus meant we would be like the angels in regard to gender then we will all be males for, as far as I know, all angels are masculine. As a woman, I find that beyond my ability to comprehend or imagine. You will most probably find it easier because you are a male here and now but to be honest the thought of becoming a man (as distinct from a woman) makes me feel somewhat "tacky". That's not to offend males, I love males. It's just that, as having spent the past 50 years as a woman, being turned into a male makes me feel as if the Lord is taking away the essence of who I am.

This is not to say He can't do this. I simply cannot comprehend this thought tis all.

I would love to pursue this but it is completely off topic from the OP. Maybe one day we can discuss this in more depth.

Thanks for input. :)

peace
 
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sawdust said:
I'm full of surprises. ;)




I assume you say that based on this verse? (maybe)

At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. Matt.22:30

The only thing I see clear is that there is no marriage in heaven. At least, no marriage between individuals because there is going to be only one marriage. ie the Lamb and His bride.

If Jesus meant we would be like the angels in regard to gender then we will all be males for, as far as I know, all angels are masculine. As a woman, I find that beyond my ability to comprehend or imagine. You will most probably find it easier because you are a male here and now but to be honest the thought of becoming a man (as distinct from a woman) makes me feel somewhat "tacky". That's not to offend males, I love males. It's just that, as having spent the past 50 years as a woman, being turned into a male makes me feel as if the Lord is taking away the essence of who I am.

This is not to say He can't do this. I simply cannot comprehend this thought tis all.

I would love to pursue this but it is completely off topic from the OP. Maybe one day we can discuss this in more depth.

Thanks for input. :)

peace

see this is where I disagree with endtime teachings. Jesus was answering "who will this woman be married to if all 7 husbunds of her's has died", Jesus' answer addresses the fact that people are trying to fit God's power into human understanding

I don't know if there will be genders in heaven and frankly I don't care, all I know is heaven will be greater than I can imagen.

note: angels being male is classified as assumption heresy so don't worry about becoming a man, I personally wouldn't wanna become a woman, it would make me feel quite inadiquite, so I can understand where you are coming from

plus I think Jesus was addressing the nature of an angel, we see something like "becoming like" and we immidetly think it's in physical form
 
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sawdust

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adam332 said:
We do have a common foundation that we can work from to gain this greater understanding which you have implied that I lack and which you possess.

Ooooo... a barb. Is that suppose to make me feel bad about myself. ;)


How can it be weird.... Now, all that aside because I'm sure you have some disagreement with something there.

Well you're the one telling the story. You're the one who placed his "cards of faith on the table" (so to speak) and called it a house. And I'm looking at it thinking how is that a house? There are no doors, no windows. Where's the roof? Maybe I have misunderstood so I ask for clarification only to find out no, I haven't misunderstood.

You keep telling me we are sitting on thrones during the millenium and judging. I keep looking around to see who it is we are judging and can find no-one available.

But do you answer the question? No. Now you want to sweep your house of cards off the table and tell me to put my own down when I have already admitted (indirectly at least) that I don't have a house built in my mind yet which is why I normally refrain from debates on eschatology.

I have yet to listen to a teacher who puts it all together. (I haven't got to my current pastor's teaching on these matters) I'm always finding something in the scriptures that gets me to thinking that everyhting I have heard to date is not the whole story.

And if all that isn't enough what do I find in your discussion with Edial?

But you also said he came and "reigned". I don't deny his appearance here in the past and I do not deny it in the future, but he didn't reign here as you implied was my point.

Streuth! Now I'm thinking ... if He didn't reign? what the heck was He doing over nature when He calmed the storm? What was He doing when a "Legion" of demons were crouching before Him in absolute terror begging not to see their end yet? What was He doing when He taught the word of God with such authority? If that's not reigning? then I would have to be the biggest daft twit ever to grace God's earth and should never be allowed to reign with Him because I don't have a clue what it is. (which I most probably am, but that's not the point. :D )

The only place I can see where Christ did not exercise His reign is over human beings and I believe the reason for that is because if He did? We all would have had to die. "For the wages of sin is death" and "What has Light to do with darkness?"

If He had come to reign over those on earth in His first coming as He will in His second coming? Then say hello "iron sceptre" (as it crushed us) and say goodbye "hope". Until Christ died for our sin (ie the whole world), we remained dead in our trespasses, without Christ, without hope, without eternal life.

Christ's reign over this earth in His first coming may not have been overtly and consistently visible to the eyes in our head but to the eyes of the soul, (enlightened by grace), He reigned!

One might say He never let go of the reins! :D

peace
 
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GenemZ

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sawdust said:
I'm full of surprises. ;)




I assume you say that based on this verse? (maybe)

At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. Matt.22:30



God's angels are celebate by the power of grace. The angels in Genesis 6 had to learn a lesson the hard way. They were created males.

The only thing I see clear is that there is no marriage in heaven. At least, no marriage between individuals because there is going to be only one marriage. ie the Lamb and His bride.

That puts us males in a bind. For if we are to be a bride in the literal sense? Then it will be us who are transformed into females. I do not see it that way. It will be the Lord initiating (male) life towards us, and we being responders (female) to his life. It has nothing to do with sexuality. It has to do with how the male and female souls are different in their expression.

If Jesus meant we would be like the angels in regard to gender then we will all be males for, as far as I know, all angels are masculine. As a woman, I find that beyond my ability to comprehend or imagine.

No sex in Heaven. Yet, male and female SOULS!

Genesis 1:27 niv
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

God created "BARA" out from nothing in that passage! Its the souls that make us masculine and feminine. The body came later in Genesis 2, when the LORD breathed into the nostrils the already created soul. We will be male and female in Heaven. But, no marriage. Just like elementary school children are not sexual, but both are masculine and feminine in expression. Young children are not given in marriage. Sex does not interest them, but they do enjoy the opposite sex's company. They are happy and play. Heaven will be something much better.

The day I realized that God created our souls masculine and feminine it all clicked. Until then I felt a deep sadness that there might be no two sexes in Heaven. Both the male and female souls were created in God's image. BOTH! God's nature has not changed.

Grace and peace, GeneZ
 
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