Does God know/see the future?

"to say God once didn't know anything is denying the fact that he is omniscient"

No, to say that God created someone knowing they would go to Hell is to say God isn't all loving.

Originally posted by Josephus
He doesn't know the exact choices you will make until the closer you get to actually making them.

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It doesn't look like you and I are worshiping the same God, because my God knows every choice I made, thinking of making, & will make.

God chooses to not know our futures to the point where doing so would limit us actually having free will; just like God chooses to no longer remember our sins when we ask him for forgiveness.

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God is sovereign. And He doesn't need to choose anything. God doesn't choose to forget our sins, He just simply doesn't remind us of our sins anymore. we say that God has forgotten our sins because in our lifetime & in the eternity that we live with God, He will never remind us of those sins again, or make us accountable for those sins.

Do you think that when we're in heaven and we ask Him if He remember a particular sin that we committed and He would say, "Gez, I don't remember if you did that or not. Did you commit that sin? Really? I have no clue. Looks like I have a bad memory."

Originally posted by s0uljah


Impact this world? What is this world? Jesus says it is a corpse. This world is simply a stage for choice.

Do you think that some people are created only in order to impact the lives of those that are saved? So, they are tormented for eternity through God's will, not their own faults?

Do you start to see why it is illogical?

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impact others in this world, yes. do you not think that your decisions are affected by people everyday?
unfortunatley, you can say it is illogical, and i will admit that it is difficult. but there are 2 absoultely positive declarations in scripture. God knows all. Man Goes to Hell. You and I agree that people go to hell. What we don't seem to agree on is whether or not GOd knows everything. the bible says that he does. logic says that a "God" that does not "know everything" is not a "God" at all. you can't get around it. God knows everything and with this knowledge he willed those that would choose to reject him into being"

Originally posted by s0uljah
"to say God once didn't know anything is denying the fact that he is omniscient"

No, to say that God created someone knowing they would go to Hell is to say God isn't all loving.

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Obviously, it isn't. Since he does do that. you are arguing with what scripure CLEARLY states...not even a smidgen for debate in this. God is not just "all love", is also perfect justice. allowing us to choose to reject him is a sign of his love.

i'll be back later.
one thing you need to be careful of doing is molding a God to fit what you want to be true. God says things clearly about himself. they may not make sense to us. they may seem contradictory to us, but either we accept them or do not accept him. we can't say "oh ya, he said that, but he didn't mean it...or thats not really true about him, because that means that it makes whatever other thing he says about himself difficult to understand"

Originally posted by cb


Obviously, it isn't. Since he does do that. you are arguing with what scripure CLEARLY states...not even a smidgen for debate in this. God is not just "all love", is also perfect justice. allowing us to choose to reject him is a sign of his love.

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Amen to that!

Originally posted by cb


Obviously, it isn't. Since he does do that. you are arguing with what scripure CLEARLY states...not even a smidgen for debate in this. God is not just "all love", is also perfect justice. allowing us to choose to reject him is a sign of his love.

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Clearly states according to whom?

Originally posted by s0uljah


Clearly states according to whom?

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there is not "according to". it says what it says. even dr. lao, who is not a believer, and completley neutral on the issue agrees that the bible says that God is omniscient. If you can find me one atheist or christian that actually tries to debate an non-omniscient God, please find that person for me. i don't think you will because a non-omniscient God is a logical contradiction. i would imagine that more atheists would try to argue that, as it implies a limited God.

i posted this earlier. these are just SOME of the scriptures that show God's forknowledge of all that would occur.

(earlier post
Okay, Okay...this has gone on long enough!

The idea that God "doesn't know everything" is absurd, and completley counter-scriptural. One of the attributes that has ALWAYS been attributed to God is that he is omniscient (knows all). I do not know of a single scholar, liberal or evangelical, that believes in a God that is constricted by time, and does not know the future, much less the entire course of a person's life.

God knows "The End from the Beginning", Isaiah 46:10,

"Before a word is on my tounge, You know it O Lord, such knowledge is too lofty for me to attain." 139:4,

"Great is the Lord, Mighty is his power, His understanding is INFINITE." pslams 147:5

"Nothing in creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account." Heb 4:13

As Norman Geisler points out in His book "Chosen but Free"...

"Even those who would eventually able saved were KNOWN by God (1 Peter 1:2) BEFORE the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4) By his LIMITLESS knowledge God is able to predict the exact course of human history (Daniel 2, 7) including the names of generations before they were born! Nearly TWO HUNDRED predictions were made by God about Messiah, no one of which failed. God knows all things, past present, and future." (emphasis mine)


If God does not know the future, then that really throws all the prophetic books out the window, doesn't it? Perhaps He just randomly decided to send Christ, since He didn't know the future and this seemed like his best bet? Christ couldn't have been planned, how could he? God didn't know what people would choose. What about the prophecies in Revalation? Are those good guesses by God? Come on, nothing could further from the truth of what scripture says.
I understand the idea that God creating people that he allows to go to Hell is difficult, but lets not try to dance around it by twisting what scripture so clearly says: God knew every single person he created, their choices, destination and all, before the foundations of this world were created.

s0ul,

try posting this topic in another forum to see what the response is.

you can say:

"since it is illogical that God be all love and create people he knew would go to hell, God can not be omnsient. He does not know everything."

Originally posted by cb
s0ul,

try posting this topic in another forum to see what the response is.

you can say:

"since it is illogical that God be all love and create people he knew would go to hell, God can not be omnsient. He does not know everything."

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You misunderstand me. I argue that we can't even form a logical question about God's pre-knowledge.

I am NOT saying God doesn't know everything. I AM saying that it is illogical to ponder whether He knew which souls would go to Hell before He created them.

Originally posted by cb
Are you saying that God was a fool to allow us the responsiblity to determine our own destiny? That he should have tweaked the universe so that every single individual would choose God? Isn't this contradictory to God's purpose in having a relationship with us? What is God freely chose, by His own Free will, to give us our own free will? By allowing you to make the choice that you will make, God is respecting you.

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I am not saying that God is a fool to allow us the responsiblity to determine our own destiny. I am saying that it is impossible for us to have that responsibility given an all-powerful, all-knowing God.

If I know what you are going to do, and I can affect the outcome, then you no longer have a choice. If I allow you to do what you were going to do anyway, then I have chosen that path for you by choosing not to change it. Likewise, if I decide to change the outcome I am making the decision for you. But God is even a further step up. He made you make the original choice in the first place.

cb-

DrLao is right if you follow your logic. The only way to make sense of it is to follow mine.

Originally posted by s0uljah
cb-

DrLao is right if you follow your logic. The only way to make sense of it is to follow mine.

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I'm sorry, but your view really isn't logical. Dr. Lao and I are discussing this because we both know 1 thing: By very definition of what God is, he must be omnsicient (know everything). Yet, CHristianity teaches that some choose Hell. Why would God create those He would allow to God to Hell? The question of God's omniscience never has been an issue, because if you take it away, you aren't dealing with "God" anymore. You can't say "because I don't like the idea of this, I am going to take away one of the attributes of God." Instead, you must find a way to cope with the answer and reason it out.

Originally posted by s0uljah


You misunderstand me. I argue that we can't even form a logical question about God's pre-knowledge.

I am NOT saying God doesn't know everything. I AM saying that it is illogical to ponder whether He knew which souls would go to Hell before He created them.

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It is not illogical. It is fact. God DID know that souls would go to Hell before He created them. Thats the very definition of knowing everything.

If I know what you are going to do, and I can affect the outcome, then you no longer have a choice.

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Correct, you overrode my choice.

If I allow you to do what you were going to do anyway, then I have chosen that path for you by choosing not to change it.

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I think this is where our discussion is breaking down. You have not chosen the path for me, I have still chosen that path for myself. you simply allowed it to occur, therefore allowing me to make the choice you already knew I would make.

Likewise, if I decide to change the outcome I am making the decision for you.

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If you overrode the choice I would make on my own, then we are taking away my own choice in the matter.

But God is even a further step up. He made you make the original choice in the first place. [/B]

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That is another place our discussion is breaking down. God MAKES You make the original choice? In what way? God doesn't say "you MUST do such and such", just that you WILL do such and such.

i am not sure if i am missing something here, but I seem to be doing a terrible debate job. I still haven't figured out the logic behind s0uls ideas, and i'm not sure why we can't get a breakthru here. oh well, thanks for putting up with me.

Originally posted by cb
I think this is where our discussion is breaking down. You have not chosen the path for me, I have still chosen that path for myself. you simply allowed it to occur, therefore allowing me to make the choice you already knew I would make.

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The choice is not yours. You are only able to choose that path because I allow you to take it.

If you overrode the choice I would make on my own, then we are taking away my own choice in the matter.

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But even if I don't override your decision, I have made the choice for you. Because you doing it according to my will. If I have total control over your decisions, then my choosing not to affect you is just as positive a choice as my choosing to affect you. It makes no difference, if I am in control then you have no choice since not all the options are open to you. Only the the ones I wish you to take.

That is another place our discussion is breaking down. God MAKES You make the original choice? In what way? God doesn't say "you MUST do such and such", just that you WILL do such and such.

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I don't think so. God is in control of every factor that leads to my decision, and He knows exactly how those factors will affect me, then He essentially chooses for me.

i am not sure if i am missing something here, but I seem to be doing a terrible debate job. I still haven't figured out the logic behind s0uls ideas, and i'm not sure why we can't get a breakthru here. oh well, thanks for putting up with me.

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Don't be so down on yourself. I think the problem is that the conflict lies at a level more fundamental than the one we've been arguing at. I think we need to figure out exactly what it means to have a free choice. Another problem is that folks a lot more knowledgeable and skilled at philosophy than us have been arguing about this one for thousands of years and it's still going on.

cb-

Hopefully you dont mind me joining this conversation?

Anyway, here is my point, and it is the same one you are making. God knows everything. We can't understand His ways completely, since we are humans. I was highlighting that fact by the statement that we can't even form a logical question about His knowledge of who would go to Hell, since we think in linear time.

God is in control of every factor that leads to my decision

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No, He isn't in control of other people's choices, which effect you. He can't be, or there is no free-will.

He did everything in His power to set things up so that our choices have real consequences, else, we would be robots and there would be no point to our lives.

However, and this is where it gets tricky...He knows what choices those people will make, and can use them for His own purposes!

Gotta think outside the box.

Originally posted by s0uljah
No, He isn't in control of other people's choices, which effect you. He can't be, or there is no free-will.

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Sure He is, in the same way He is in control of mine.

However, and this is where it gets tricky...He knows what choices those people will make, and can use them for His own purposes!

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So, basically, you just undermined your whole argument. Can God cause me to change my decisions? Yes. Does He purposely do so sometimes? Yes. Therefore, He is in control, I have no choice.

Perhaps -

It is in God's view, better that a soul should exist, even though it be in Hell, than that it never exist.