Permissive Christianity???

Thanks Joe.  Very nice post.  Here's some blessings for you!

God bless,

Don

AMEN to that, joe.

critics of OSAS: WHAT! Shall we sin that grace may abound?!!

Paul: Huh?! How shall we who are DEAD to sin, LIVE IN it anymore!?

Originally posted by humblejoe

As "OSAS" believers and Reformers, we believe that we cannot lose salvation, BUT this does not excuse us from pursuing holiness. We are commanded by God and expected to be obedient and strive for righteousness. Let us "prove... true faith in Jesus", together. Amen.

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Can anyone please help me understand Hebrews 6:4-6? I know other passages point to our permanent inheritance, but this one has caused me confusion

I must not get out much, but what is "OSAS" and "Perseverance of the Saints" ?

 

Jenna

Originally posted by Valerie412
 Can anyone please help me understand Hebrews 6:4-6? I know other passages point to our permanent inheritance, but this one has caused me confusion

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Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,<SUP> </SUP>and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,<SUP> </SUP>if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

The term "once enlightened" means to have the knowledge of God disclosed in the gospel message (10:26; John 1:9; 2 Cor 4:4-6) and publicly confessed in baptism.&nbsp; In early Christian writings, conversion and baptism was sometimes termed "enlightenment."&nbsp; The Greek word for "once" is prominient in Hebrews.&nbsp; It is used in connection with the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ in vv 10:2, 10.

As to "tasted the heavenly gift," some see here a reference to participation in the sacrament of the Lord's Supper.&nbsp; Or, the phrase could be paired with "enlightened" as a broad description of apparent conversion.

As to "partakers of the Holy Spirit," this means they had some experience with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but it is not necessary to conclude that regeneration is specifically intended.

As to "powers of the age to come," the most obvious understanding here is the signs and wonders that accompanied the introduction of the Gospel, i.e. the special miracles that god used to demonstrate the authority of the Savior (Acts 2:22), as well as to certify the ministries of the apostles and Stephen (Acts 6:8, 14:3; Rom 15:19; 2 Cor 12:12).

Now the biggie, verse 6:

There is a kind of falling away that is irreversible (1 John 5:16).&nbsp; Christian salvation is final and the decision to reject it, if made at a certain level, cannot be reversed.&nbsp; According to 1 John 2:19, anyone who makes such a decision was not really a member of the household of faith, although they may have seemed to be.&nbsp; Judas Iscariot is the clearest example of someone who participated in the coming of the Kingdom, but did not enter it (Matt 26:47-49 compare this to Matt. 7:21-23).&nbsp; This warning is not to encourage speculation about whether others are irretrievably lost, but urges us to cling closely to the Savior ourselves.&nbsp; Those that renounce their faith in Christ declare that Christ's cross is not a holy sacrifice for others' sins, but the deserved execution of a guilty criminal (v. 10:29).&nbsp; Such apostates have returned to a point where the Cross does nothing but condemn them as accomplices in murder (Acts 18:5,6).&nbsp; There is an analogy between the once-for-all character of Christ's sacrifice for sin and the believer's symbolic participation in that crucifixion through baptism.&nbsp; Christ's sacrificial death cannot be repeated.&nbsp; In the same way, the believer's participation in His death, sealed by baptism (Rom 6:3,4; Col 2:12) cannot be withdrawn and then repeated.

It is very important to understand that the apostasy described in this chapter is not a matter of private, internal doubt.&nbsp; It is the forceful, complete, and public rejection of a faith once confessed.&nbsp; As such, it has bad effects for others as well as for the apostate.

Hope this helps.

God bless.

What about the prodigal son? Before he left his father, he was his father's son - he belonged to him. Then he made some poor choices and left, but he repented and returned and became as his son again. The father never gave up hope on the son, but rather the sone left the father. This could likened to falling away from grace.

Originally posted by humblejoe
Could you clarify the cancellation and renewal of baptism you talked about?

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Now I'm confused.&nbsp; I said "In the same way, the believer's participation in His death, sealed by baptism (Rom 6:3,4; Col 2:12) cannot be withdrawn and then repeated."&nbsp; The proponants of OSNAS contend that a truly saved person that makes a public proclamation of faith and participates in His death, being sealed by baptism can then make a forceful, complete, and public rejection of&nbsp;that faith.&nbsp; I believe that those that do make this public rejection of the faith they once professed were in fact not really a member of the household of faith, although they may have seemed to be.&nbsp; The example I gave was Judas.&nbsp; By all accounts, he appeared to be a true follower of Christ until his rejection of his faith in the Savior.&nbsp; My contention is that he was never truly a disciple of Christ, nor did he ever receive true salvation.&nbsp; As you know, God is sovereign and therefore it was part of His plan that Judas set in motion the prophesied death of Christ.&nbsp; God did not make him do it, it was just his natural response to his fallen nature.

God loves His elect, and works all things to the good of those who love Him and have been called according to His purpose" (Rom 8:28).&nbsp; Judas was just a part of God's plan to bring about the necessary sacrifice of Jesus, because God is a just God.&nbsp; Those that God had predestined for salvation don't include those that appear to be part of the fold and then later prove they are not.&nbsp; I do not make judgments on the nature of this proof.&nbsp; The Lord commands that we love all people, elect and non-elect alike.&nbsp; However, the Lord is faithful in all His promises.&nbsp; Therefore, He will not "change His mind" regarding His elect.&nbsp; If someone is truly of the elect, they will be made "perfect and complete, lacking nothing" (James 1:4) knowing that it is Him who "works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13).

Are you saying that after a person&nbsp;makes a "forceful, complete, and public rejection of a faith once confessed" that that person can never be regenerated and that they can never sincerely confess and be baptized again? Is&nbsp;a person that makes that kind of a rejection&nbsp;statement totally excluded from true regeneration&nbsp;and baptism at some point in&nbsp;the future?

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I guess this could be answered by asking yourself if you think that God, being the only source of our righteousness, would break that covenant with us and withdraw His grace, which was unmerited to begin with.&nbsp; If a person makes a "forceful, complete, and public rejection of a faith once confessed" was it God's Will that they do so?&nbsp; If it was His Will (which all things are that happen), do you think that person was of the elect to begin with?&nbsp; I would have to say they aren't.&nbsp; As to their future regeneration, the conditional statement here is that the rejection be complete.&nbsp; It is not, as I said, the private ponderings of our own&nbsp;state of salvation due to feelings of grief or guilt.&nbsp; It is not sinning, as we all do that and will continue to do that until we are glorified.&nbsp; The bottom line is that God is righteous in every decision He has made.&nbsp; If someone is condemned, it is a just decision, despite our personal, fallen based feelings on the perceived fairness of His judgment.

God bless.

Originally posted by humblejoe
Ok, let me ask you this Ref:

You have a person that was never regenerated and has never claimed to have been regenerated. She makes an open rebuke of Christ and His salvation. Is it still possible that she may be among the Elect, but God has not opened her eyes yet and regenerated her?

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Of course.&nbsp; Remember, it is a "forceful, complete, and public rejection of a faith once confessed."&nbsp; This doesn't mean they were truly regenerate and then they said, "Naaahh, that's not for me."&nbsp; This really boils down to an issue of God's providence.&nbsp; When God saves someone they are fallen and unworthy of that salvation.&nbsp; ALL fallen people want no part of God's redemption.&nbsp; Until God changes our heart we are all at enmity with the Creator and despise His righteousness.&nbsp; I'm sure you're familiar with Romans 3:10-18.&nbsp; That is our relationship with God in our fallen state.&nbsp; It is God, as you know, who comes in and changes that relationship.&nbsp; We are powerless to accomplish any reconciliation.&nbsp; So, God does it for us.&nbsp; He does not, however, do it for everyone.&nbsp; He does it for those that He has picked out to redeem for His glory, His elect.

The offense of mankind needed a propitiation because God's Law required a payment.&nbsp; None of us were a worthy sacrifice.&nbsp; That's why God sent His Son.&nbsp; So, the salvation, not the "opportunity" for&nbsp;salvation, that His sacrifice accomplished isn't a tentative thing.&nbsp; God isn't sitting around hoping we don't forsake Him.&nbsp; The truth is, were it not for His grace everyone would forsake Him, no matter how devout they think they are.&nbsp; He is the one working in us to sanctify us.&nbsp; He will never forget that we are His.&nbsp; Therefore, if we are God's elect, we won't ever forsake Him that lives in us and&nbsp;that is working out our salvation.&nbsp; The Holy Spirit dwells in us and a house that is divided against itself cannot stand (Mark 3:25).

God bless.

I'm having a really hard time accepting the claim that we want no part of righteousness until God gets involved, at least when we combine it with God only getting involved with Christians, because I know other people who are clearly very interested in pursuing righteousness.

I am not a OSAS believer, simply because it's untestable, and it turns out to be really confusing; if OSAS is true, then people I know who were once born-again Christians but aren't anymore were apparently *NOT* saved... so how can I have any faith that *ANYONE* is saved? OSNAS may allow for people to stop being saved, but at least I can look at them and see whether or not they're visibly on the right path.

Originally posted by seebs
I'm having a really hard time accepting the claim that we want no part of righteousness until God gets involved, at least when we combine it with God only getting involved with Christians, because I know other people who are clearly very interested in pursuing righteousness.

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Who said God only gets involved with&nbsp;Christians?&nbsp; God is the Creator and Judge of all, not just Christians.&nbsp; I take it by your question that the&nbsp;"people who are clearly very interested in pursuing righteousness" you speak of are not Christians.&nbsp; This begs the question, at least for a Christian, of&nbsp;whose concept/idea of righteousness are they pursuing?&nbsp; If my assumption&nbsp;of their relationship with God is correct, and they are trying to conform to God's righteous principles, I'm curious as to why they put&nbsp;confidence in a figure of&nbsp;authority that they give no credence to.&nbsp; If their concept of righteousness is derived from something other than God's Will then I would most definitely say their&nbsp;motive isn't to do that which God encourages His children, to be imitators of God (Eph 5:1), and it is therefore not righteousness for which they strive, despite it's outwardly appearance.&nbsp;

if OSAS is true, then people I know who were once born-again Christians but aren't anymore were apparently *NOT* saved... so how can I have any faith that *ANYONE* is saved?

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Two comments: First, rebellion against God's authority is something that every Christian who has ever lived is guilty of.&nbsp; Our perseverance in our faith is shown by a series of failures that result in our spiritual growth.&nbsp; The extent to which we subject ourselves to this immaturity varies for different Christians.&nbsp; A person who lives by the Word and then steps away from it for a time and then comes back into alignment with God's Truth didn't lose, and then regain, their salvation.&nbsp; One of the things that any saved person can take comfort in is the chastisment of God (Job 5:17; Heb 12:5,6).&nbsp; It is what convicts us of the error of our ways and admonishes us to repent and realign ourselves with the Truth that we know is good.&nbsp; On the other hand, one of the signs of the lack of a person's salvation is their unrepentant attitude against that which the Lord has told us is right and true, His Word.&nbsp; We are known by our fruits (Matt 7:15-20).&nbsp; Just because someone professes to be a "born-again Christian" doesn't mean they truly have a heart that seeks after God (Matt 7:21-23).

Secondly, as for having faith in the salvation of others, I have to ask, why is that important?&nbsp; If you did "know for sure" would that cause you to respond differently to them?&nbsp; We are instructed to hold fast to our own faith in God and love our neighbor as we love ourselves (Deut 30:20; Rom 12:9; Matt 5:43-45; Rom 13:9).&nbsp; This is difficult enough without having to worry about God's plan for another person.

OSNAS may allow for people to stop being saved, but at least I can look at them and see whether or not they're visibly on the right path.

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The position of OSAS does not preclude you from this type of discernment.&nbsp; There is a difference between being unsaved and rebellious.&nbsp; I don't ever call into question the disposition of another person's relationship with God.&nbsp; I've seen people that are totally against the idea of believing in God, whose lives bear&nbsp;no resemblance to God's path of redemption be miraculously changed.&nbsp; What should I think?&nbsp; That they just, all of a sudden like, started, of their own accord, seeing the error of their ways?&nbsp; That God had no hand in it?&nbsp; No, I know that God has a plan that I only see a small portion of and I don't even do very good at&nbsp;being righteous in my little speck of time.

God bless.

Originally posted by humblejoe &nbsp;
Yes, but at what time did the son's&nbsp;father EVER stop being the son's father? That&nbsp;relationship is factual&nbsp;and immutable. [/B]

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The issue isn't about the Father.&nbsp; God will always be God - He will have always been and will always be whether you believe in Him or not.&nbsp; The only way that you can receive your salvation is through your belief in Him, your faith in Him.&nbsp; God is always faithful to you, up until the moment you die He is giving you the chance to repent, be baptized into Christ for the remission of your sins and confess Christ as your savior.&nbsp; The issue is whether or not you do that, and then once you do that, whether or not you keep your faith.&nbsp;

Correct Seebs, to a point.

A person will begin to seek a still better way based on the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Or a person independently seek a still better way?

Not being aware of the action of the Holy Spirit (assuming that there is one), could the person believe otherwise than he is taking an independent action? Or does God respond to the desire of the person for a still better way, and prompt the person because of it? And does the nebulous prompting of the Holy Spirit (assuming he does any prompting) constitute the action of God in a person's life?

Ah now ... Would the person in response to his desire for a better way, independently seek God ? With assurance, the answer to that, is no. Without someone to explain it, the person is likely to seize upon the first thing he encounters that looks like it might be a still better way. Without someone to speak the gospel, it is possible the person would even enter one of the branches of the craft. (particularly if his only encounter with Christianity was through the likes of a latter day Torquemada.)