Biblical Numerology Of The Appearings

npetreley · Jun 29, 2002

carlaimpinge

I don't happen to think pre-trib fits scripture, but I certainly identify with the spirit of your post. I can't tell you how often I cringe when I hear dogma about what the scriptures teach, because there are numerous verses which directly contradict that dogma.

My pet peeve is when people begin a statement with the words "God would never..." I can almost guarantee there will be numerous exceptions to what follows, every one of which that person will manage to explain away.

carlaimpinge · Jun 29, 2002

My goodness.  The man CAN'T READ the statements which are made.  He is stumbling (1 Peter 2:8) ON the statements of the word of God.  This man posts nothing but REDUNDANT illiteracy stated numerous ways WITHOUT going to the POINT in contention. 

They didn't "see" HIM.  THAT is his appearance.  Who doesn't KNOW there are sights and sounds with his appearance WHICH I have stated.  THE POINT IS THEY DIDN'T SEE HIM.  The man cannot OVERTHROW what has been stated.

His appearance is secret to Paul, UNSEEN by others.

 

Watch the man AGAIN attack the words of God, and try to "define" what SUDDENLY means.  He questions the word. Ah, the Satanic questioning.  (Gen.3)  What ignorant foolishness.  NOTE THAT HE DIDN'T PRODUCE ONE VERSE TO STATE OR TEACH THE WORD MEANT OTHER THAN WHAT IT WAS.

Suddenly!  (Acts 9,22)  The light was BRIGHTER than the noonday sun.  Jesus was the "GLORY" of that light.  (Acts 22:11)  THE APPEARANCE OF THE LIGHT was suddenly, as JESUS was that LIGHT.  Instantaneous, and without WARNING.

The man is a bible rejector and corrector, trying to prove a system.

The Lord appeared suddenly and instantaneous, as he vanished suddenly and instantaneous from their sight.  The verses have been given.

The man AGAIN attacks the word and CAN"T quote the verse corrrect.  He "gives" his rendention of it.

The man CAN'T REFUTE that the ONLY appearing Paul saw was one which was secret and suddenly, as instantaneous.  He wrote of that one, WHICH WE LOOK FOR.

You see, WE APPEAR (in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye) with him, WHEN HE APPEARS.  (Col.3)

The man is reprobate concerning the truth.

 

 

 

 

carlaimpinge · Jun 29, 2002

npetrely,

Yes, I know what you mean.  Thank you for your post.

In Christ Jesus,

Carl

Brian45 · Jun 29, 2002

ha ha hahaha . Your unbelievable carl , but I like ya . ha ha hahaha ha .

postrib · Jun 29, 2002

...His appearance is secret to Paul, UNSEEN by others...

Is there a verse which says Jesus' appearance at the rapture will be unseen by anyone but believers?

...JESUS was that LIGHT...

If that were true, then those with Paul also saw Jesus, for they also saw that light.

...The Lord appeared suddenly...

Note again that at the rapture, Jesus will indeed come suddenly to us if we don't keep spiritually awake: "Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping" (Mark 13:36); "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3). But Paul says that if we watch for that day it need not overtake us as a thief: "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).

carlaimpinge · Jun 29, 2002

What a foolish man.

Now he's ASKING ME questions. Wonders never cease. He doesn't believe the VERSES from the Bible. He sure won't believe WHAT I SAY.

The man DOESN'T KNOW that a teacher is to teach by WHAT is STATED in the Bible.

The appearing of Jesus Christ to Paul was secret. He ALONE saw him. He taught that he was a pattern to believers which should come after him. He taught the Lord Jesus would APPEAR to believers in that body of Christ.
The ONLY manner of the appearing of Jesus Christ he KNOWS of personally is the ONE HE SAW. At Christ's appearing, WE will "appear" with him in glory.

The man KEEPS trying to overthrow the FACT that THE OTHERS DID NOT SEE the Lord Jesus.

The man STILL has not overthrown the FACT that the Lord "appeared" SUDDENLY to Paul, without warning. Instantaneously.

Such vulgar, obsene, infidelity to the words of the Holy Spirit.

Well, the BOOK has identified him for what he is. He has "demonstrated" his infidelity through the whole thread, by non belief.

He is a heretic, who is reprobate concerning the truth.

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

rainbow promise · Jun 30, 2002

Well Carl,

I had to read all the posts on here. I personally do not see where Postrib didn't give Biblical answers. You are blind as you say he is and arogant as well. You are not completely understanding what you have written and are mad because it is pointed out to you.

The fact that Jesus was "seen so called secretly" in your texts has nothing what so ever to do with the second coming which will not be secret.

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kidreds of the earth shall wail because of him....Rev. 1:7

"For as lightning comeht out of the east, and shineth even unto th ewest; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.......And there shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man comning in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ... And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.Matt. 24:27, 30, 31

Actually those texts do not denote anything secret. His second coming is a different event all together from a vision of him by small groups or individuals. His second coming involves a global view of Christ. That is plain to see in the texts I just wrote down. If you can't see that to be the case then I guess Postrib isn't the only blind person on here.

Hebrews 9:28....So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation......He is coming again ......

npetreley · Jun 30, 2002

Originally posted by rainbow promise

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kidreds of the earth shall wail because of him....Rev. 1:7

First, there's more than a bit of irony in that I'm defending carl's position, because I happen to believe that the verse you've quoted above is about when the rapture occurs.

But I must agree that scripture does not rule out the possibility that Jesus could return in secret or multiple times (indeed, He has appeared multiple times). In other words, I don't see how one can read scripture and rule out a pre-trib rapture based on those particular assumptions.

carlaimpinge · Jun 30, 2002

rainbow promise,

Thanks for your post.

It appears you "don't see" much. He alludes to verses, and EVADES the statements which are posted.

Blind, arrogant, and mad? Not hardly. Exasperated, maybe, with such insolent infidelity to the Book, and mass deception of professing Christians. (Of course, MANY will be deceived though)

I sure hope I know and understand what I wrote. That would be terrible. NOTHING has been pointed out which refute the statements made. They have been skirted, and talked around. He WON'T and CAN'T admit, that NO OTHER PERSON saw the Lord except Paul, AT THAT APPEARANCE. Why? He doesn't believe Paul SAW HIM, as stated. He's an infidel to the Book.

Your statement is comic. So called secretly? Did anybody else see him OPENLY, at that time. You know the answer. Don't be foolish. Secret is OPPOSITE of open. It was a SECRET appearance. The Bible DOES STATE HE APPEARED TO HIM. There's the madness. It's in "the prophet's head", who believes and teaches otherwise.

You are mistaken. I "see" more than you think I do. The verses QUOTED by you do NOT refer to the gathering of the body of Christ, WHICH IS THE APPEARING which Paul speaks of. There are TWO APPEARANCES. One is secret and the other is open. There's your error.

Paul was given subsequent revelation which identified another gathering. (1 Cor.15, `1 Thess.4) A gathering NOT REVEALED before him, but TO HIM, as the mystery of the body. (Eph.3)

You see, the man is such an infidel, he doesn't believe that PAUL was revealed the mystery of the body EITHER, when HE SAID he was, just as he was revealed the mystery of the gathering of the body of Christ.

Go to my site and look around.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

rainbow promise · Jun 30, 2002

I guess I have a hard time understanding where a secret rapture comes from. :scratch:

For there to be a secret rapture I think there would be some scripture to back up the fact that His second appearing would be such

Yet I have not found such a text.

The Bible says He will appear the second time and that is all. There is not one verse that teaches other wise. No where does the Bible teach that Christians will be exempt from tribulation.........It says totally the opposite.
We are not so far above Christ that we won't have to suffer tribulation when He had to suffer on our behalf.

Now the wrath of God we are told we won't have to face it, if we are His. He didn't say he would take us out of it tho. We just won't get it. It will fall only on those that receive the mark of the beast.

carlaimpinge · Jul 1, 2002

rainbow promise,

What in the world do you think you just read? 

We're LOOKING at the appearances of the Lord Jesus Christ.  Paul STATES he will appear.  HOW?  Go to the Bible and "LOOK" at how HE DID APPEAR.  It's called bible study.

There are TWO TYPES of appearances.  Open and secret.

Which ONE did Paul speak of?  Prove it.  This is called bible teaching.

Plenty of scripture to BACK UP what I just stated.  It's above.

No, the Bible DOES NOT state he appears a second time and THAT IS ALL.  Read the verse.  You ADDED to the text.  The Bible has ALREADY STATED he "appeared" more times than that before THAT APPEARANCE.

The Bible teaches that the body of Christ will ESCAPE the day of the Lord, which is likened unto the woman in travail.  (1 Thess.5)  That TIME is the time of Jacob's trouble, spoken of by Jeremiah, and Daniel the prophet quoted by the Lord Jesus.

Yes, there's verses.  People don't believe them.

Paul DID NOT TEACH the body of Christ or ANY CHRISTIAN goes through the great tribulation.  That is heresy.

Paul "suffered" tribulation, and never entered into great tribulation.  Don't use a ridiculous argument.  They are not the same.  One is a PERIOD OF TIME, which starts during Daniel's 70th week.

We are delievered from the "wrath to come".  That IS great tribulation, according to Matthew, Luke, and Paul.  (Matt.3,24, Luke3, 21, 1 Thess.1,5)\

Go to my site and look at the doctrinal teachings and study them.

In Christ Jesus,

Carl

 

 

rainbow promise · Jul 1, 2002

Well carl,

I do agree that many have secretly seen the Lord in the past. Yet Christ's second coming will not be a secret. It will be an advent not just a quiet entrance. Also there is no scripture that says HIS SECOND COMING WILL BE IN SECRET. aND IF THERE IS NO ONE HAS EVER SHOWN IT TO ME.

Those of us that are in Christ when His wrath is poured out will not partake of it, even tho we will be here on earth. The Jews in Egypt during the time of Moses didn't receive any of the plagues that were sent. We will have divine protection from the plagues, which are the resualt of His wrath against those that reject the truth....That is what the seal of God is for, PROTECTION.

carlaimpinge · Jul 1, 2002

rainbow promise,

So you realize his appearing can be secret then. That's good. You're ON THE WAY to believing the Book. More than some do around here.

I've already told you that Christ comes AFTER the tribulation, and his revelation is OPEN. I believe that.

Christ ALSO comes BEFORE the day of the Lord, ON THE DAY OF CHRiST, and gathers the body, for we ESCAPE the time of the woman in travail. (1 Thess.5, 2 Thess.2) His appearance will be LIKE the one Paul saw. He is OUR PATTERN. You didn't DISCUSS those verses last time.

There's NO VERSE that says the body of Christ is on earth during the great tribulation.

I go by what it DOES SAY. It states OTHERWISE. It says we escape it.

That's nice religious homily but WHERE's the prooftexts, that the body goes through the great tribulation, LIKE the Jews in Egypt.

Like I've said before. Go to my site, and read the threads IF you want to understand WHY I believe what I believe. I give the verses for my statements.

Don't just bicker, like the others.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

npetreley · Jul 1, 2002

Originally posted by carlaimpinge

There's NO VERSE that says the body of Christ is on earth during the great tribulation.

I go by what it DOES SAY. It states OTHERWISE. It says we escape it.

Where does it say we escape great tribulation?

carlaimpinge · Jul 1, 2002

npetrely,

 

I'm sure you have read the other posts.

 

1 Thess.5:1-9.

 

In Christ Jesus,

Carl

rainbow promise · Jul 2, 2002

Carl,
NO, IN no way do I believe in a secret rapture or secret appearing of Christ at His second coming.

postrib · Jul 3, 2002

...He ALONE saw him...

While it's true that in Acts 9 Paul alone saw Jesus, is there a verse which says Jesus' appearance at the rapture will be unseen by anyone but believers?

...He taught that he was a pattern to believers which should come after him...

Note again that while Paul did say he is a pattern to unbelievers for how longsuffering Jesus can be for the repentance of even the greatest of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15-16), he didn't say that all those who repent will have a heavenly vision of Jesus like he did.

...the Lord "appeared" SUDDENLY to Paul, without warning...

Note again that what came suddenly was the light from heaven (Acts 9:3, 22:6). If we equate this light with Paul's vision of Jesus, then the vision wasn't secret, for those with Paul saw the light.

...heretic...

I don't believe eschatology itself can be heretical because a heretic can't be saved (Galatians 5:20-21), and we aren't saved by our eschatology (Romans 10:9-10).

...scripture does not rule out the possibility that Jesus could return in secret or multiple times...

I believe it does, as we are told how Jesus' 2nd coming/appearing (Hebrews 9:28) will be: just like his ascension in reverse (Acts 1:11), and after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30).

...The verses QUOTED by you do NOT refer to the gathering of the body of Christ...

Note that at the 2nd coming some of us elect will still be "alive and remain" (1 Thessalonians 4:15) on the earth: "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect (eklektos) from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" (Mark 13:27).

"Elect (eklektos) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:2).

...A gathering NOT REVEALED before him...

Some say the coming of Jesus and the gathering of the church taught by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 can't be the same as the coming and gathering already taught by Jesus in John 14:3 and Matthew 24:29-31 because Paul said the rapture and resurrection of the church was a "mystery," that is, that it had not already been taught. But note that all Paul said was a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:51 was that "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," that is, that not all Christians would have to die before being changed into their immortal bodies. The rapture and resurrection of all Christians was not a mystery, for Jesus had already clearly taught that: "I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3); "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40, 44, 54).

...the day of the Lord...

Note that no verse says or requires that the day of the Lord begin before the 2nd coming.

...the time of Jacob's trouble...

What does the Bible itself say "the time of Jacob's trouble" is? (Jeremiah 30:7-8)

...There's NO VERSE that says the body of Christ is on earth during the great tribulation...

Note that we Christians are referred to throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4).

carlaimpinge · Jul 3, 2002

The man continues with his tirade of ignorance, infidelity, and illiteracy. The poor man can't distinguish an appearance of a person, who is seen by ONE, not all, and the light associated with him, which is seen by all. The appearance of HIM is secret. No one has said they DID NOT SEE THE LIGHT. They did not see HIM. That's what has ALWAYS been said. The attempts to falsify what has been stated is more smoke blown for distortion of the true teaching.

What he said was THAT HE WOULD APPEAR, and WE WOULD APPEAR "with him" in glory. The appearing that HE KNOWS OF and "experienced" is secret and instantaneous. HE IS OUR PATTERN. Our "appearance" will be "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" at HIS, which is secret and instantaneous. That is, ACCORDING to Paul. (Col.3, 1 Cor.15, 1 Tim.6, Titus 2, 2 Tim.4)

Heresy is a work of the flesh, which ANY believer can partake of, who walks AFTER THE FLESH. (Gal.5) What ignorance of the Bible.

The day of the Lord INCLUDES the invasion of Jerusalem
at the midst of the week. That's around 42 months BEFORE his coming AFTER the tribulation.

The day, great, in that day, all refer to the TIME of Jacob's trouble in the context of Jeremiah which is the day of the Lord.

The man can't read. Christian IS NOT FOUND in the book of Revelation. He supposes, "thinks", "believes", understands it to mean, but ALAS, can't PROOFTEXT that ANY CHRISTIAN is on earth during the great tribulation.

Typical of one who believes a system and not the Book.

parousia70 · Jul 3, 2002

Originally posted by postrib
I don't believe eschatology itself can be heretical because a heretic can't be saved (Galatians 5:20-21), and we aren't saved by our eschatology (Romans 10:9-10).

That is far and away the smartest thing I've ever read at Christian Forums.

Have a super Holiday!
P70

Mandy · Jul 3, 2002

Christians will not go through The Tribulation, because The Tribulation is the pouring out of God's wrath, it is referred to as the testing that will come upon the inhabitants of the earth, in Rev. 3.  According to 1 Thess, we are not appointed to God's wrath.  Yes all Christians will go through tribulation, but not from God. 

In Revelation, the church is not mentioned between chapter 4 and chapter 19 or 20.

 

Biblical Numerology Of The Appearings

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