EO and RC dialogue

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JordanF

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If the Roman Catholic Church were to return to communion with the Orthodox patriarchates, what are some changes that would need to be made to the Roman Catholic Church (doctrinally, ecclesiastically) ?

What is the Roman Catholic Church's view on reconciliation with the Orthodox patriarchates?

And one more question... when and where did the idea of papal infallibility begin to show up?
 

Philip

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JordanF said:
If the Roman Catholic Church were to return to communion with the Orthodox patriarchates, what are some changes that would need to be made to the Roman Catholic Church (doctrinally, ecclesiastically) ?

Quite a few. A complete renouncement of all the innovations they have added to the Faith. Among these are the doctrines of Original Sin and all that it implies, the universal jurisdiction and infallability of the pope and all that these imply, and a renouncement of the Filioque and all that it implies.

What is the Roman Catholic Church's view on reconciliation with the Orthodox patriarchates?

You should probably wait for a member of the RCC to answer, but I believe all that they would require of us is recognition of the universal jurisdiction of the bishop of Rome.

And one more question... when and where did the idea of papal infallibility begin to show up?

The Middle Ages
 
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Trento

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JordanF said:
And one more question... when and where did the idea of papal infallibility begin to show up?

Church Fathers example.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]"[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times]...they dare even to set sail...to the chair of Peter and the principal Church at Rome, in which sacerdotal unity has its source...whose faith was praised by the preaching Apostle, and among whom it is not possible for errors or perversion of faith to have entrance." (Epistle 59:14) St. Cyprian on the Church and the Papacy[/FONT]​

Look at the contrast between the "schismatics and profane persons" and the immaculate faith of the Romans, which the Apostle had praised two hundred years before, and of which it was still possible to predicate that where it reigns unfaith has no access [note: in early ecclesiastical Latin perfidia means "unfaith" or "heresy," not simply "deceit"].
It is the Chair of Peter, on whom the Church was built, it is thus the "primatial Church," from which the unity of the episcopate had its rise.Epistle 59:14 AD 251)

Pope is only infallible when he intends to teach by virtue of his supreme authority on a matter of faith and morals to the whole Church. He is preserved by the Holy Spirit from error. His teaching act is therefore called "infallible" and the teaching which he articulates is termed "irreformable.​

Such passages as: "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church; to you I give the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven", and "Do you love me, Peter. Feed my sheep", and "I have prayed for you, Peter, that your faith may not fail. You in turn must confirm your brethren", have always been taken to refer to a special role for Peter in the establishment of the Church, and special divine protection for Peter in the exercise of his authority.
 
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IgnatiusOfAntioch

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Philip said:
And one more question... when and where did the idea of papal infallibility begin to show up?
The Middle Ages

Actually, it was quite a bit earlier. It certainly predates it's first written form by St. Cyprian in the early A.D. 200's.

Yours in Christ.
 
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Trento

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JordanF said:
Can you point me to this or other early mentioning of the pope's "authority" ? :)
Thanks

Sometime around A.D. 90, St. Clement of Rome, who was the Bishop of Rome, issued an epistle to the Corinthian church. This epistle is the earliest Christian writing we have outside of the New Testament. And Clement writes to the Corinthians because the church there had fallen into a state of schism. Some members of the church had overthrown the legitimately-appointed presbyters which is contra Acts 14:23, and were refusing to listen to them which is contra Hebrews 13:17

. “Owing, dear brethren, to the sudden and successive calamitous events which have befallen us (referring to persecutions of Emperor Domitian), we feel that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the points respecting which you consulted us; and especially to that shameful and detestable sedition, utterly abhorrent to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-confident persons have kindled to such a pitch of frenzy, that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be universally loved, has suffered grievous injury.” (1 Clement Chapter 1)

The Corinthians appealed to Rome Just as the early church of Antioch appealed to the Apostles at Jerusalem for a solution to their problems in Acts 15:2

Since there were no living Apostles in Rome why didn’t the Corinthians of this time appeal to nearby Ephesus (as they did in the days of Paul: 1 Corinth 7:1 & 16:8), where the Apostle John was still alive and presiding? St. Irenaeus documents the fact--(Irenaeus, Against the Heresies, Book III, Chapter III, 180 A.D.).“Then, again, the church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the Apostles."

Trajan reigned from A.D. 98 until A.D. 117. Therefore, the Apostle John was presiding in nearby Ephesus when the Corinthians appealed to St. Clement at Rome.

Clement in that letter speaks of Rome “turning its attention” to the problems of Corinth, thus implying that Rome routinely instructed the other churches. And he also praises the faith of the Corinthians in a universal context he could only invoked if Rome had universal jurisdiction.

Let's continue with Clements letter.

Your schism has subverted [the faith of] many, has discouraged many, has given rise to doubt in many, and has caused grief to us all. And still your sedition continueth.” (1 Clement Chap. XLVI)

He condemns the Corinthian schism and says.

Ye, therefore, who laid the foundation of this sedition, submit yourselves to the presbyters, and receive correction so as to repent, bending the knees of your hearts. Learn to be subject, laying aside the proud and arrogant self-confidence of your tongue.” (1 Clement Chap. LVII)

Clement gives a direct command, ordering the schismatics to submit to the local Corinthian presbyters. If Clement diden't have the authority to do this why should they listen to him when they won’t even listen to their own presbyters?

Here in 90 AD we have the church of Rome teaching and issuing authoritative instruction to the other churches.

Majer Protestnt historians support the Catholic thesis that there is an underlying instinct for the fraternal exercise of authority from the Church of Rome that has it's origin from the Apostles!


T. Jalland 'The Church and the Papacy',p103.

J.B. Lightfoot St. Clement of Rome, pg 698.

Harnack History of Dogma

J.N.D.Kelly, page 412, 413, 417)
Early Christian Doctrines (HarperSanFrancisco, 1978
 
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Philip

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IgnatiusOfAntioch said:
Actually, it was quite a bit earlier. It certainly predates it's first written form by St. Cyprian in the early A.D. 200's.

Then I am sure that you are familiar with this statement from St Cyprian:

It remains, that upon this same matter each of us should bring forward what we think, judging no man, nor rejecting any one from the right of communion, if he should think differently from us. For neither does any of us set himself up as a bishop of bishops, nor by tyrannical terror does any compel his colleague to the necessity of obedience; since every bishop, according to the allowance of his liberty and power, has his own proper right of judgment, and can no more be judged by another than he himself can judge another. But let us all wait for the judgment of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the only one that has the power both of preferring us in the government of His Church, and of judging us in our conduct there.
St Cyprian, The Seventh Council of Carthage.​
 
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prodromos

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Trento said:
The Corinthians appealed to Rome Just as the early church of Antioch appealed to the Apostles at Jerusalem for a solution to their problems in Acts 15:2

Since there were no living Apostles in Rome why didn’t the Corinthians of this time appeal to nearby Ephesus (as they did in the days of Paul: 1 Corinth 7:1 & 16:8), where the Apostle John was still alive and presiding? St. Irenaeus documents the fact--(Irenaeus, Against the Heresies, Book III, Chapter III, 180 A.D.).“Then, again, the church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the Apostles."

Trajan reigned from A.D. 98 until A.D. 117. Therefore, the Apostle John was presiding in nearby Ephesus when the Corinthians appealed to St. Clement at Rome.

I keep responding to these claims, no one ever attempts to show that there is a problem with my response, yet these same claims regarding Clement are posted again and again.

Once more.

Corinth was a Roman colony, the original inhabitants having been either wiped out or sold into slavery a century before after a failed uprising against the Roman empire. The city of Corinth was entirely populated by ethnic Romans. Thus, strong ties to Rome, regular trade and communication with Rome, church established by Paul of whom Clement was a close companion, so naturally the Church in Corinth would turn to the church and bishop who they had the closest affinity to (and it is by no means certain that Clement was even bishop at the time he wrote the letter on behalf of the Church at Rome)

John
 
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Philip

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prodromos said:
I keep responding to these claims, no one ever attempts to show that there is a problem with my response,

There is a reason for that.

It should also be noted that St Clement never claims papal authority. Rather, his epistle is sent on behalf of the entire church in Rome.
 
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JordanF

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These so called backup claims for "papal infallibility" don't imply that the Bishop of Rome has jurisdiction over any other patriarchates. St. Clement isn't attempting to put his authority over the whole Church, just the Church of Rome and its jurisdiction.

Since when has the Bishop of Rome had doctrinal, legal, and ecclesiastical authority over other patriarchates?
 
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IgnatiusOfAntioch

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JordanF said:
Can you point me to this or other early mentioning of the pope's "authority" ?

?????
I think you’ve wandered off of the subject. Here is the thread of conversation that I am involved in.

IgnatiusOfAntioch said:
Philip said:
JordanF said:
And one more question... when and where did the idea of papal infallibility begin to show up?

The Middle Ages
Actually, it was quite a bit earlier. It certainly predates it's first written form by St. Cyprian in the early A.D. 200's.

Infallibility is the subject, not authority. And so to get back on track, here, from the mid 200's A.D. (way over a thousand years before the middle ages).


"...they dare even to set sail...to the chair of Peter and the principal Church at Rome, in which sacerdotal unity has its source...whose faith was praised by the preaching Apostle, and among whom it is not possible for errors or perversion of faith to have entrance." (Epistle 59:14) St. Cyprian on the Church and the Papacy
 
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IgnatiusOfAntioch

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Philip said:
Then I am sure that you are familiar with this statement from St Cyprian:

It remains, that upon this same matter each of us should bring forward what we think, judging no man, nor rejecting any one from the right of communion, if he should think differently from us. For neither does any of us set himself up as a bishop of bishops, nor by tyrannical terror does any compel his colleague to the necessity of obedience; since every bishop, according to the allowance of his liberty and power, has his own proper right of judgment, and can no more be judged by another than he himself can judge another. But let us all wait for the judgment of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the only one that has the power both of preferring us in the government of His Church, and of judging us in our conduct there.
St Cyprian, The Seventh Council of Carthage.​


It is not "not by tyrannical terror" that the Church is or ever has been governed. I don't think you will find any disagreement from the Holy See that "every bishop, according to the allowance of his liberty and power".

Saying that we should hear all sides in a brotherly manner does not nullify his statement on infallibility:

"...they dare even to set sail...to the chair of Peter and the principal Church at Rome, in which sacerdotal unity has its source...whose faith was praised by the preaching Apostle, and among whom it is not possible for errors or perversion of faith to have entrance." (Epistle 59:14) St. Cyprian on the Church and the Papacy
 
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InnerPhyre

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IgnatiusOfAntioch said:
?????
I think you’ve wandered off of the subject. Here is the thread of conversation that I am involved in.



Infallibility is the subject, not authority. An so to get back on track, here, from the mid 200's A.D. (way over a thousand years before the middle ages).


"...they dare even to set sail...to the chair of Peter and the principal Church at Rome, in which sacerdotal unity has its source...whose faith was praised by the preaching Apostle, and among whom it is not possible for errors or perversion of faith to have entrance." (Epistle 59:14) St. Cyprian on the Church and the Papacy


Do you have the entire quote without the ...'s?
 
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Philip

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IgnatiusOfAntioch said:
It is not "not by tyrannical terror" that the Church is or ever has been governed. I don't think you will find any disagreement from the Holy See that "every bishop, according to the allowance of his liberty and power".

St Cyprian seems to disagree with your version of history. He was speaking of Pope Stephan's actions concerning a dispute over baptism. Not only did the Bishop of Carthage reject Stephan's authority, he rebuked him for claiming it.
 
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Philip

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InnerPhyre said:
Do you have the entire quote without the ...'s?

Here is the entirety of St Cyprian's 59th Epistle

Epistle LIX​

To the Numidian Bishops, on the Redemption of Their Brethren from Captivity Among the Barbarians.

Argument.-Cyprian Begins by Deploring the Captivity of the Brethren, of Which He Had Heard from the Numidian Bishops, and Says that He is Sending Them a Hundred Thousand Sesterces, Contributed by Brethren and Sisters and Colleagues

1. Cyprian to Januarius, Maximus, Proculus, Victor, Modianus, Nemesianus, Nampulus, and Honoratus, his brethren, greeting. With excessive grief of mind, and not without tears, dearest, brethren, I have read your letter which you wrote to me from the solicitude of your love, concerning the captivity of our brethren and sisters. For who would not grieve at misfortunes of that kind, or who would not consider his brother's grief his own, since the Apostle Paul speaks, saying, "Whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member rejoice, all the members rejoice with it; " and in another place he says, "Who is weak, and I am not weak? " Wherefore now also the captivity of our brethren must be reckoned as our captivity, and the grief of those who are endangered is to be esteemed as our grief, since indeed there is one body of our union; and not love only, but also religion, ought to instigate and strengthen us to redeem the members of the brethren.

2. For inasmuch as the Apostle Paul says again, "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? " -even although love urged us less to bring help to the brethren, yet in this place we must have considered that it was the temples of God which were taken captive, and that we ought not by long inactivity and neglect of their suffering to allow the temples of God to be long captive, but to strive with what powers we can, and to act quickly by our obedience, to deserve well of Christ our Judge and Lord and God. For as the Apostle Paul says, "As many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ," Christ is to be contemplated in our captive brethren, and He is to be redeemed from the peril of captivity who redeemed us from the peril of death; so that He who took us out of the jaws of the devil, who abides and dwells in us, may now Himself be rescued and redeemed from the hands of barbarians by a sum of money-who redeemed us by His cross and blood-who suffers these things to happen for this reason, that our faith may be tried, whether each one of us will do for another what he would wish to be done for himself, if he himself were held captive among barbarians. For who that is mindful of humanity, and reminded of mutual love, if he be a father, will not now consider that his sons are there; if he be a husband, will not think that his wife is there kept captive, with as much grief as shame for the marriage tie? But how great is the general grief among all of us, and suffering concerning the peril of virgins who are kept there, on whose behalf we must bewail not only the loss of liberty, but of modesty; and must lament the bonds of barbarians less than the violence of seducers and abominable places, lest the members dedicated to Christ, and devoted for ever in honour of continence by modest. virtue, should be sullied by the Just and contagion of the insulter.

3. Our brotherhood, considering all these things according to your letter, and sorrowfully examining, have all promptly and willingly and liberally gathered together supplies of money for the brethren, being always indeed, according to the strength of their faith, prone to the work of God, but now even more stimulated to salutary works by the consideration of so great a suffering. For since the Lord in His Gospel says, "I was sick, and ye visited me," with how much greater reward for our work will He say now, "I was captive, and ye redeemed me!" And since again He says, "I was in prison, and ye came unto me," how much more will it be when He begins to say, "I was in the dungeon of captivity, and I lay shut up and bound among barbarians, and from that prison of slavery you delivered me," being about to receive a reward from the Lord when the day of judgment shall come! Finally, we give you the warmest thanks that you have wished us to be sharers in your anxiety, and in so great and necessary a work-that you have offered us fruitful fields in which we might cast the seeds of our hope, with the expectation of a harvest of the most abundant fruits which will proceed from this heavenly and saving operation. We have then sent you a sum of one hundred thousand sesterces, which have been collected here in the Church over which by the Lord's mercy we preside, by the contributions of the clergy and people established with us, which you will there dispense with what diligence you may.

4. And we wish, indeed, that nothing of such a kind may happen again, and that our brethren, protected by the majesty of the Lord, may be preserved safe from perils of this kind. If, however, for the searching out of the love of our mind, and for the testing of the faith of our heart, any such thing should happen, do not delay to tell us of it in your letters, counting it for certain that our church and the whole fraternity here beseech by their prayers that these things may not happen again; but if they happen, that they will willingly and liberally render help. But that you may have in mind in your prayers our brethren and sisters who have laboured so promptly and liberally for this needful work, that they may always labour; and that in return for their good work you may present them in your sacrifices and prayers, I have subjoined the names of each one; and moreover also I have added the names of my colleagues and fellow-priests, who themselves also, as they were present, contributed some little according to their power, in their own names and the name of their people. And besides our own amount, I have intimated and sent their small sums, all of whom, in conformity with the claims of faith and charity, you ought to remember in your supplications and prayers. We bid you, dearest brethren, ever heartily farewell, and remember us.​

Is it just me, or is something missing? Maybe the reference is wrong?
 
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IgnatiusOfAntioch

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IgnatiusOfAntioch said:
It is not "not by tyrannical terror" that the Church is or ever has been governed.

My point was that the See of Peter "which presides in love", not "by tyrannical terror".

Grace and peace to you.
 
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