Homosexual Question?

Hortysir · May 4, 2006

yes, still a sin
no, not acceptable behavior
just shouldn't shun them
s'all I'm saying

JEBrady · May 4, 2006

I try to let the word of God speak to me on such subjects. Here's a NT reference from Romans 1.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorwho is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

So it's pretty clear what God says about that kind of behavior. Also, it says in the word sexual sin is the worst kind of sin. In the natural, I wouldn't tend to agree, so I guess it's good God tells us. So, there's definitely degrees of sin. Any of it will land you in a place where the temperature is not so good.

Jesus said, go out into the highways and byways and get the lame, halt, maimed, etc. Some folks who engage in gross sin or perversion might be more likely to turn to God, since it's kinda sorta more difficult to cling to one's self-righteousness when we know what we're capable of. But not necessarily, in the face of the considerable ability to deceive that sin possesses. Folks today seem to do such things with bold face.

lismore · May 4, 2006

JEBrady said:
Also, it says in the word sexual sin is the worst kind of sin.

David committed sexual sin and was allowed back by God, David committed a rape and a murder in addition to adultery!

Saul didnt give himself whole heartedly to the work of the Lord by not killing Agog King of the Amalekites. God made David King instead.

The worst kind of sin is not putting the Lord 1st

=idolatry. Serve no foreign God!

Tenebrae · May 4, 2006

JEBrady said:
I try to let the word of God speak to me on such subjects. Here's a NT reference from Romans 1.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorwho is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

So it's pretty clear what God says about that kind of behavior. Also, it says in the word sexual sin is the worst kind of sin. In the natural, I wouldn't tend to agree, so I guess it's good God tells us. So, there's definitely degrees of sin. Any of it will land you in a place where the temperature is not so good.

Jesus said, go out into the highways and byways and get the lame, halt, maimed, etc. Some folks who engage in gross sin or perversion might be more likely to turn to God, since it's kinda sorta more difficult to cling to one's self-righteousness when we know what we're capable of. But not necessarily, in the face of the considerable ability to deceive that sin possesses. Folks today seem to do such things with bold face.

No where in the bible does God say one sin is worse than the other

"all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".

It always strikes me that those who put emphasis on sexual sin, are trying to minimise their own sin..........

The reference you quoted, also refers to the worship of idols, so no its not defnitive proof that sexual sin is the worse kind of sin

JimB · May 4, 2006

wizeone said:
A hetrosexual couple would not come to church and kiss and cannoodle and carry on in a way that was inapproriate for Church. Why do you have the misconception that a gay couple would consider the former acceptable behavoir...

What is cannoodling?

Tenebrae · May 4, 2006

Jim M said:
What is cannoodling?

The kind of behavouir between a husband and wife, they wouldnt engage in front of the children, let alone in a church congregation

As part of a course recently we went to the church of the auckland Gay, lesbian community, ad surpsingly enough, there were no people having sex, or displaying other inapproriate behavouir. Infact any person walking in of the street would never have known it was a gay church

JEBrady · May 4, 2006

wizeone said:
No where in the bible does God say one sin is worse than the other

"all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".

It always strikes me that those who put emphasis on sexual sin, are trying to minimise their own sin..........

The reference you quoted, also refers to the worship of idols, so no its not defnitive proof that sexual sin is the worse kind of sin

That scripture was specifically re homosexuality, not sexual sin in general, and it's shown to be a result of being turned over to a debased mind, result of idolatry (you mention idolatry).

This shows a progression in sin, to where the people turned over come into deeper sin. In Revelation, Jesus mentions the depths of satan

Revelation 2:24-25 (NKJV)

24 Now to you I say, 8and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the gdepths of Satan, as they say, hI 9will put on you no other burden. 25 But hold fast iwhat you have till I come. The New King James Version.

The scripture about sexual sin I didn't quote:

1 Corinthians 6:18-20 (NKJV)
18 rFlee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins sagainst his own body. 19 Or tdo you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, uand you are not your own? 20 For vyou were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body 7and in your spirit, which are Gods.

This gives a reason why sexual sin is worse- it's against the body. That's why I have the idea some sins are worse than others.

There's a matter of responsibility, too.

Luke 12:47-48 (NKJV)

47 And nthat servant who oknew his masters will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.48 pBut he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

These scriptures give me the idea of degree of sin. Here's another.

James 3:1 (NKJV)

3 My brethren, alet not many of you become teachers, bknowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
[The New King James Version

Are you saying I'm trying to minimize other types of sin? What if I used to be homosexual?

Tenebrae · May 4, 2006

JEBrady said:
Are you saying I'm trying to minimize other types of sin? What if I used to be homosexual?

well were you? I'm not interested in a discussion on what ifs. Not you specifically, but many christians I know use it to justify their sin "Ok so I gossip, but at least I'm not a sexual sinner" that sort of thing

"all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" it doesnt say that those guilty of a sexual sin, shall be punished worse than other sinners

you can quote all the scripture you like, your arguement would not convince a skeptic, it doesnt come close to convincing this skeptic

When God forgave me and I asked him to be my Saviour, "he never told me that I had to do extra pennace because I used to work as a pro Domme, or that I wasnt quite forgiven, I had to ask a few more times.

When I confiessed all of my sins, he threw them into a large and bottomless sea, with a sign infront that said no fishing"

I'm glad Christ is my judge. If I was to be tried by CF members, I would have been judged and sentenced to death as guilty :sigh:

Christ doesnt differentiate sin, humans do.John 3:16-17 "for god so loved the world, that who so ever believes in him may have eteranl life. For God did not send his son into the world to condem it, but to save the world through him" it says who so ever, doesnt say that sexual sinners are excluded

The revalation verse in the context of that chapter also talk about the spirit of Jezebel spiritual adultery however also says that we will be judged by the content of our deeds, it says nothing that sexual sin is worse than any other sin

The cornthians verse, well it says that our body is not ours but Gods, we were bought at a price and to honour God wiht out bodies, however in verse 9 it also outlines other ways we dishounour God with our bodies

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

yet again in the context of that chapter, I yet to find anyone saying sexual sin is worse than non sexual sin

The verses you quoted from luke 12, need to be looked at in the context of the chapter. jesus was telling a parable about the servants taking care of what they were given, and how if we take care of what we are given we will be rewarded. there is nothing in that chapter that supports your POV either

What relevance is James 3 to the arguement. Whats being discussed is the fact that if as a christian we teach, we will be held to a higher level of judgement. It says nothing that support the idea that sexual sin is worse than other sin

When we accept Christ our lives reflect our spiritual journey, as we walk closer with Christ, our old sins and behavoirs are suppoed to go as we grow in the likeness of Christ

The idea of sexual sin being worse than the others, implies that a sexual sinner cant just come to god and repent and turn from his wicked ways, he has to go through more than the person who was not a sexual sinner

John 4:1-26 Jesus didnt differentiate on sin, he just forgave it, who are we as his followers to think that we have the right to differentiate on sin, when Jesus Christ did not

JEBrady · May 5, 2006

Well, I think it's obvious that you don't agree with me on this point, and that's just fine. I'm really not trying to convince you, I'm just stating the scripture that makes me think the way I do.

I do wonder what you make of the "every other sin is outside the body, fornication is against the body, the temple of the Holy Spirit" passage. Why does he say that? What does that mean to you?

Assuming one sin is worse than another doesn't mean it's not forgivable or not forgiven. You're reading things into my posts that aren't there.

Tenebrae · May 5, 2006

JEBrady said:
Well, I think it's obvious that you don't agree with me on this point, and that's just fine. I'm really not trying to convince you, I'm just stating the scripture that makes me think the way I do.

I do wonder what you make of the "every other sin is outside the body, fornication is against the body, the temple of the Holy Spirit" passage. Why does he say that? What does that mean to you?

Assuming one sin is worse than another doesn't mean it's not forgivable or not forgiven. You're reading things into my posts that aren't there.

I think it could refer to many things, drinking smoking, being a potty mouth. Illicit sex isnt the only way to bring damage and harm against our bodies

Assuming one sin is worse than another implies that the one with the worse sin has more work to do than the others. Jesus with the samaritian woman at the well, never said that her sin was worse than anyone elses sin, he simply forgave her

If Christ never differentiated on sin, what makes you think that you have the right to?

JEBrady · May 5, 2006

wizeone said:
I think it could refer to many things, drinking smoking, being a potty mouth. Illicit sex isnt the only way to bring damage and harm against our bodies

Assuming one sin is worse than another implies that the one with the worse sin has more work to do than the others. Jesus with the samaritian woman at the well, never said that her sin was worse than anyone elses sin, he simply forgave her

If Christ never differentiated on sin, what makes you think that you have the right to?

We all have a tendency to have our own ideas about things. When you read scripture, try to avoid seeing it through your own ideas. Let the word speak to your heart, meditate on it. Think about this. The scripture is saying "every other sin" than fornication. So, how can (for example) it refer to drinking?

Dear sister, please read this next scripture prayerfully. This is Jesus speaking to Pilate (my bold)-
John 19:11 (NKJV)

11 Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”

The New King James Version

EDIT- there are degrees to sin, but there's no degrees to Christ's forgiveness. He forgave it all.

Tenebrae · May 5, 2006

JEBrady said:
We all have a tendency to have our own ideas about things. When you read scripture, try to avoid seeing it through your own ideas. Let the word speak to your heart, meditate on it. Think about this. The scripture is saying "every other sin" than fornication. So, how can (for example) it refer to drinking?

Dear sister, please read this next scripture prayerfully. This is Jesus speaking to Pilate (my bold)-
John 19:11 (NKJV)

11 Jesus answered, You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.
The New King James Version

EDIT- there are degrees to sin, but there's no degrees to Christ's forgiveness. He forgave it all.

Do you always answer a question with a question

Again "If Jesus Christ never diffientiated on sin, what makes you think that you have the right to do so?

Until you answer my question I will not answer yours

JEBrady · May 5, 2006

wizeone said:
Do you always answer a question with a question

Again "If Jesus Christ never diffientiated on sin, what makes you think that you have the right to do so?

Until you answer my question I will not answer yours

I did answer it. Read the scripture. Jesus did differentiate between sin.

Back to the regularly scheduled topic.

Tenebrae · May 5, 2006

JEBrady said:
I did answer it. Read the scripture. Jesus did differentiate between sin.

Back to the regularly scheduled topic.

You seem to like pulling verses out of context, and making them fit your point he was refering to Judas who certainly wasnt a sexual sinner

And it contradicts Jesus and the woman at the well, no diffentiation......He never said well "youve been sleeping around, and thats far worse than tim over here who only stole a loaf of bread

Jesus never differnetiated on sin, it saddens me because all sorts of people go to church including hookers, looking for love and grace and forgiveness and all they get from people like yourself is judgement, and alienation because of their past. They then decide that if that was God, they want no part of him

I can see that you are going to avoid answering the question properly, so I shall say adieu

heron · May 5, 2006

Now....the reason for the OP is that Cavell is a pastor. He's been through this thought process, but how could he handle it on a day to day basis? What does he say to members who are upset seeing an increase of gay people in the church? What if regular members leave? What if someone with declared orientation wants to teach a class, usher, or participate in music?

In a more subtle situation, what about a person who attends month after month, year after year, and is initially welcomed but never quite feels welcome. How would a pastor balance that?

I've watched people get up and walk out when a pastor brings up the issue in a sermon. It's not an easy position to be in.

Along with the discussion on levels of sin--I think the reason it stands out, is that many homosexuals see their decision as a major part of their identity. They are clear about where they stand, and sometimes vocal. The alcoholic doesn't consider his/her bondage part of his identity--they deny it or minimalize it. A prostitute would hide their past when entering a church. The discussions in denominational assemblies now are about rights, not about repentance.

JEBrady · May 5, 2006

heron said:
Now....the reason for the OP is that Cavell is a pastor. He's been through this thought process, but how could he handle it on a day to day basis? What does he say to members who are upset seeing an increase of gay people in the church? What if regular members leave? What if someone with declared orientation wants to teach a class, usher, or participate in music?

In a more subtle situation, what about a person who attends month after month, year after year, and is initially welcomed but never quite feels welcome. How would a pastor balance that?

I've watched people get up and walk out when a pastor brings up the issue in a sermon. It's not an easy position to be in.

Along with the discussion on levels of sin--I think the reason it stands out, is that many homosexuals see their decision as a major part of their identity. They are clear about where they stand, and sometimes vocal. The alcoholic doesn't consider his/her bondage part of his identity--they deny it or minimalize it. A prostitute would hide their past when entering a church. The discussions in denominational assemblies now are about rights, not about repentance.

Repentance is the key. Why shouldn't someone who used to engage in homosexuality be fit for an office if they repented? Or any other gross sin?

Again, repentance is the key. What do you do with this scripture? This is an expression of God's love as much as Jn 3:16.

1 Corinthians 5:9-11 (NKJV)

9 I wrote to you in my epistle pnot to 6keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go qout of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company rwith anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner snot even to eat with such a person.

The New King James Version

heron · May 6, 2006

I suspect that this issue gets more difficult in Charismatic (broad term) churches, because members are very cognizant of underlying spiritual forces--in everything.

Charismatics tend to avoid certain books or movies not so much because of wrongness, but in avoidance of danger--they talk of how actions open the door to demonic activity. Abstinence in many areas is an active, purifying move to draw closer to God. They see every activity of life as an act of worship, or an action with spiritual authority.

A non-Charismatic might focus more on the social needs and perceptions. (Generalization of course.) Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, self-control. Any move toward love and devotion to God is worthy.

So where one traditional denominational church wants to welcome everyone in, so they can experience God's love, a charismatic church might lean the other way in caution--not of the people, but of the vibes and the impact of each move will make.

In either church, members want to recognize God's authority in the situation. They both want to draw people closer to God and strengthen the invisible Kingdom...but have different methods of doing it.

We all have to be careful that our decisions and actions are not fear-based. God is bigger than any forces that come against us. Scriptures are clear about homosexual practice. But we're still left with day-to-day realities. There are people who love God who resist some of God's words. And there are people in need all around us.

Father Rick · May 6, 2006

Giving a pastoral perspective to several things I see touched on in this thread...

First... yes, there are different "degrees" of sin. Scripture is clear in this on several occasions, including once when it talks about a "sin unto death" vs. a "sin not unto death". Additionally, in the greek there is more than one word that we translate into English "sin"-- with different connotations that we lose in the translation. Now that doesn't mean that there is a lack of grace or forgiveness for ANY sin. But we must realize that some sins have greater consequences than others. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge that murdering someone has far greater consequences than stealing the person's wallet is kidding themselves. Additionally, some types of sin affect the sinner's entire worldview, consequently having a greater overall effect. Last time I checked, however, Christ died for ALL our sins so that whole argument is just a sidetrack to some of the real issues.

Next, there has been comments about people "flaunting" their sin. What about an alcoholic who comes to church still drunk? Or a drug addict who smoked pot an hour before, but is high as a kite through the church service? Or even the deacon's teenage son who is having sex with the youth minister's daughter and they sit together on the back row each week passing each other notes? What about the 2 little old ladies who get to church 30 minutes early each week and sit and gossip while waiting for church to start? Or the businessman who cheats on his taxes and drives his new luxury car to church every week? I would say every one of these is equally guilty of "flaunting" their sin-- and I daresay every church in America has at least one of the above on a regular basis. As a pastor should I embarrass them, or single them out-- or should I share the truth of the gospel in an even-handed fashion and allow God to be the one who convicts people of their sin (instead of trying to convict them myself)?

One truth I've learned over the years when it comes to dealing with sin in our lives (and we ALL have sin of some kind in our lives if we're really honest about it) is this: One of the most powerful scriptures in the Bible is "It is the goodness of God that brings us to repentance". If I emphasize just how much grace God has, and how much He wants to heal our past wounds, and make us whole then people seem much more apt to be willing to make the changes necessary (a.k.a. repent) to see God's fullness in their lives.

Have we forgotten that sinners sin? That's what they do (by definition). Personally, I love it when I have sinners coming to my church (and the more the merrier, as far as I am concerned). Why? Because I know that if they stick around long enough, the Holy Spirit will convict them of their sin and they will be changed by His grace. I think sometimes the greatest problem in many churches is that they only have Christians attending, which results in us judging ourselves by ourselves (which Christ warned against) and then when someone comes in that doesn't measure up with "our" standard they are made to feel unwelcome-- and go away without ever having a chance to experience the grace of God.

And I've learned that the funny thing is, many times we don't even have to address the particular sin in a person's life. If I just keep emphasizing God's grace and the sacrifice Christ made so that we could have relationship with God somehow the Holy Spirit is able to address every single area in someone's life even if I never mention it.

Hisgirl · May 6, 2006

Rick, you would have never made it as a screaming, back-woods, big tent revival ,hell-fire and brimstone pastor.....

(aren't you glad?) You spoke some wise words there.

heron · May 7, 2006

I think sometimes the greatest problem in many churches is that they only have Christians attending, which results in us judging ourselves by ourselves (which Christ warned against) and then when someone comes in that doesn't measure up with "our" standard they are made to feel unwelcome-- and go away without ever having a chance to experience the grace of God.

And I've learned that the funny thing is, many times we don't even have to address the particular sin in a person's life. If I just keep emphasizing God's grace and the sacrifice Christ made so that we could have relationship with God somehow the Holy Spirit is able to address every single area in someone's life even if I never mention it.

Striving for perfection, on our own merits. Been in the middle of it, and church life resembles a game of Risk or Monopoly.

Homosexual Question?

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