God's being omnipotent?

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Ok, if you read my other thread I just started, you know what's happening with me. If not: I'm on another forum and I'm debating with a couple of non-believers about religion.

One of them said this: "There are a number of classic insolvable tasks to demonstrate this. The most famous of all is - could God make a rock so heavy that God himself could not lift it? If he cannot, then there is something he cannot do - he cannot make the rock heavy enough. But if he can, then there is still something he cannot do - he cannot lift the rock. Either way he fails.

Another - can God make a genuine £10 note? Of course not - because by definition, a note is only genuine if it is printed by the Royal Mint. God might be able to make a copy that is atom-by-atom perfect, but so long as it is him that is making it, it is just a perfect fake.

The pithiest one I have ever come across is this : can God make a mistake? If he can then he is not perfect. If he cannot, then there is something he cannot do.

All these arguments were created to apply to religion, by the way. Specifically to prove that the Christian god is a logical impossibility."

What should I say??? :help:
 

AlecEiffel

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If God cannot change then whats with all the new concept of hell, and Satan from the New Testament? It didnt really talk about that in the OT, I can understand how God didnt change, he just wanted people to come closer to Him by sending his son down to change the way they viewed God, perhaps. but the idea of an evolving God is still worth debate I suppose. And God cannot lie? What if it was better that He tells a little white lie? Perhaps for something we cant comprehend. I dont know where im going with this and I dont expect answers but I just thought I'd throw it out there. it is a childish arguement I suppose, because I know I cant understand the nature of God, its worth thinking about though.
 
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robl

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Hell and satan are both in the old testament. Go to Blue Letter Bible and type in "hell". You get about 3 pages of hits, over half of which are old testament. Satan is first introduced in Genesis with Adam and Eve in the Garden. God does not evolve. People who are changing the word to fit their view are what makes it seem as if God has changed. God would never lie to anyone. It is against His nature and He cannot do it. He would not tell you anything if you could not handle it. That does not mean He would tell you a lie. That means He would not say anything! If you read the bible, you can get a very good idea of the nature of God. Also talk to Him often and He will reveal Himself to you.
In His love,
Rob
 
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There are grievous errors in this thread. I hope this will correct them.

God is omnipotent. He can do anything. Can God make an unmovable object, so that even he can not move it? Yes. That would mean he is no longer omnipotent, at least in respect to that object.

Can God lie? Yes. He just chooses not to.

Can God create a genuine 10 pound note? Yes. If necessary, he can take over the country of England and run their printing presses, or just change their laws in whatever way he pleases.

God is omnipotent. He can change the space-time contiuum with a thought. He can bend or break the rules of logic.

He chooses to not do these things because he is omnibenevolent. He wants men to live in a universe with regular physical laws so that men may have enjoyable lives and not have to dwell in a twisting, tumultous, chaotic, unknowable, capricious, evil hurricance. We do not deserve this gift he gives us. He has given us this inconceivable gift only because he loves us in spite of who we have become.
 
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cthoma11

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Warrior for Christ said:
There are grievous errors in this thread. I hope this will correct them.
Or add a slew more.

Warrior for Christ said:
God is omnipotent. He can do anything. Can God make an unmovable object, so that even he can not move it? Yes. That would mean he is no longer omnipotent, at least in respect to that object.
How can be both omnipotent and not omnipotent at the same time? Something can't be A and NOT A at the same time. This is wrong.



Warrior for Christ said:
Can God lie? Yes. He just chooses not to.
Not according to Titus 1:2. It says 'cannot' lie, not 'does not' or 'will not' lie.

Warrior for Christ said:
Can God create a genuine 10 pound note? Yes. If necessary, he can take over the country of England and run their printing presses, or just change their laws in whatever way he pleases.
At least one point is not wrong

Warrior for Christ said:
God is omnipotent.
But you said up above that he was not omnipotent (wrt the rock). Which is it.

Warrior for Christ said:
He can change the space-time contiuum with a thought. He can bend or break the rules of logic.
Break the rules of logic? Then explain how God could exist and not exist at the same time then. Explain how God could create a square circle when by definition this cannot exist. Don't say by changing the rules as this does not answer the question, but avoids it. Arguments which are logical fallacies are wrong and therefore do not challenge what they set out to. Thus once shown to be a fallacy they need not be addressed.

Warrior for Christ said:
He chooses to not do these things because he is omnibenevolent.
He does not lie because he is righteous, not because he chooses not to lie.

Warrior for Christ said:
He wants men to live in a universe with regular physical laws so that men may have enjoyable lives and not have to dwell in a twisting, tumultous, chaotic, unknowable, capricious, evil hurricance. We do not deserve this gift he gives us. He has given us this inconceivable gift only because he loves us in spite of who we have become.
 
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GenemZ

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~Sporky~ said:
The most famous of all is - could God make a rock so heavy that God himself could not lift it? If he cannot, then there is something he cannot do - he cannot make the rock heavy enough. But if he can, then there is still something he cannot do - he cannot lift the rock. Either way he fails.

The following is the Father's will for mankind.

" This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..." (1 Timothy 2:3-5 NIV®)

God wants all men saved. He does. Then there is a rock he created that he can not lift. Its called our volition.

Grace and peace, Gene
 
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Kripost

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What the dilemmas put forward show, is the limitations of language as connected to logic. To illustrate I state another example: "Can God create another God, who is identical to him in essence?"
The answer is "no", not because God cannot do it, but because of contradictions in the question itself. God is eternal, and uncreated. To speak of a created God is a contradiction.

Now, to dissect the dilemmas:
Could God make a rock so heavy that God himself could not lift it? If he cannot, then there is something he cannot do - he cannot make the rock heavy enough. But if he can, then there is still something he cannot do - he cannot lift the rock. Either way he fails.

The assumption here is that a rock has infinite mass. The problem is that when a rock has infinite mass, can it be still called a rock? The universe has finite mass, and black holes themselves have finite mass. Thus a rock being that heavy is a contradiction.

Another - can God make a genuine £10 note? Of course not - because by definition, a note is only genuine if it is printed by the Royal Mint. God might be able to make a copy that is atom-by-atom perfect, but so long as it is him that is making it, it is just a perfect fake.

As noted, the definition of a genuine note is already bounded, so that no one else can be included in its making. It is like saying "The car that belongs to Alfred alone and to Bob alone." Again, it is a problem with definitions, language and logic.

The pithiest one I have ever come across is this : can God make a mistake? If he can then he is not perfect. If he cannot, then there is something he cannot do.

This one is easy. One approach I can think of a 'mistake' as a privation of perfection, that a mistake is not diametrically opposite of perfection, but is simply lacking in perfection. Without the concept of 'perfection', there is no concrete meaning of 'mistake'.
 
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Trench777

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"He can not change"
"He can not sin"
"He can not lie"

are all true.

But what has not been outright said, is (and this is the point you would want to bring to the heathens) is G-D Himself never says He is "omnipotent". He is not omnipotent.

The easiest way to defuse an arguement like the ones atheists like to pose, it to deny the very essence of thier thesis. "Is God omnipotent? If so, can He....la la la". Well, nope, He's not omnipotent. Next question?

T777
 
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sawdust

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Hi Sporky,

I could be off the mark here, but to me saying God is omnipotent is not about what God can or can't do but rather that God is all powerful, that is all power belongs to Him. It's more about His "being" than His "doing".

So... it's why Jesus said to Pilate the only reason Pilate could execute him was because God had given him the power to do so. Or why in Isaiah God called Cyrus His servant, because the power Cyrus had to rule Persia and conquer Jerusalem ultimately came from God.

The source of all power is God because God is omnipotent. I find the question as to how well we use the power God has given us to be a far more important issue.

It seems to me the power to think logically comes from God as well, so if these guys in the other forum are using there God given power to think up stupid questions then how well are they using their power?

Well, that's just my two cents worth. :)

take care
 
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Daedalus

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Well there are some errors with language here.
Omnipotence of God referes to His power.
That is God can do anything concievable with power.
Is it concievalbe to make a rock so heavy that with his infinite power He cannot lift it again?
Well, not.
How much power does God need to make 1 + 1 = 5 ?
You see, it's not a question of power, it's a question of logics.
I can say 1 + 1 = 5 (and if the law "+" means x added y added 4 then it's logicall) and you cannot contradict me.
You can se 1 + 1 = 2 and with your set of rules it's true and I cannot contradict you.
Jesus fed 5000 people with just 3 fishes and 5 breads so he kind of broke the laws of arithmetics?
 
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