Is Owen Right?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Caedmon

kawaii
Supporter
Dec 18, 2001
17,359
570
R'lyeh
✟49,383.00
Faith
Catholic
Politics
US-Others
This is a quote from the Puritan theologian, John Owen. It concerns the Reformed doctrine of limited atonement. Feel free to comment, discuss, debate, etc. I want to hear your ideas. Thanks :)

"The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.

2. All the sins of some men, or

3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

a. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.

b. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.

c. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"
 

tericl2

A Work in Progress
Feb 2, 2002
741
6
49
Tulsa, OK
Visit site
✟1,594.00
Faith
Christian
There is one sin that leads to death. That is the blaphemy of the Holy Spirit. I believe that that blasphemy is denying the moving of the Spirit in your life. If you die physically while in that state of denial then you refuse the atonement and must answer for your own iniquities.

If you accept the sacrifice of Jesus, he then takes all your sins upon him and you are justified before God.

God wishes that no man should perish but that ALL should have eternal life. Jesus did die for ALL sin. This gives us the option laying our sins at his feet or keeping them for ourselves.

Compare this to a modern day courtroom. You are being tried for your crime and have been found guilty. However, a stranger comes in and tells the judge that he will take your crime and bear your sentence. You can go free. The judge then turns to you and asks if you will accept this sacrifice on your behalf. Now the ball is in your court. Will you accept this gift that has already been offered for you? Or will you deny it?

You may ask, why would anyone deny such a gift? Indeed, why would they? I don't know. Maybe they like the prison. Maybe the prison has been built to look pretty and they offer cable TV and a weight room. Maybe you have been in prison most of your life and are so used to it that you like it. Whatever the reason you are still in prison.

What decision will a person make? Will you stay in your prison, eventually to reap the penalty of eternal damnation? Or will you accept the gift that has already been offered and walk free into the light of God's love? It seems a simple decision to me. The work on your behalf has already been done. You only need to accept the fruit of Christ's labor.
 
Upvote 0

tericl2

A Work in Progress
Feb 2, 2002
741
6
49
Tulsa, OK
Visit site
✟1,594.00
Faith
Christian
Supposition #1 is true.

Reasoning concerning supposition #1 (found in paragraph "c") is logically indefensible.

Start at Genesis and see that through every age and time God made choices available. Attached to those choices were blessings or curses. For examples see Adam and Eve, every book in the Pentateuch, I Samuel. At all points and times people were given choices. Even those who were not God's chosen - see the example of Nebuchanezzer in Daniel.

It is clear throughout the Bible that we have been given a free will and the ability to use it - either in conjunction with God or against him.

 
 
Upvote 0

Thunderchild

Sheep in Wolf's clothing
Jan 5, 2002
1,542
1
68
Adelaide
Visit site
✟3,180.00
Faith
Non-Denom
#4

Supposition #1 is true.

Reasoning concerning supposition #1 (found in paragraph "c") is logically indefensible.

That is the point Owen was making. Option 1 (Christ died for all the sins of all) is demonstrated to be incorrect because people are still held to account for unbelief.

 

Christ died so that all shall have the opportunity to repent and be forgiven is a whole other matter.
 
Upvote 0

Reformationist

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Mar 7, 2002
14,273
465
51
✟37,095.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Originally posted by Thunderchild
[BChrist died so that all shall have the opportunity to repent and be forgiven is a whole other matter. [/B]

I think that there is an important acknowledgement that is not being made this thread.  I think that the death of Jesus accomplished exactly that for which it was intended.  There are no "what-if's" or "just maybe's."  When a person limits the effectiveness of Christ's sacrifice to that of "providing the opportunity" for redemption, all that has been acknowledged is that Christ's death did...something.

We must first recognize what it is about the fallen man that makes him incapable of reconciling himself with his Creator.  It is their nature.  That nature negates any possibility of righteousness spawned from a heart that has no manifestation of God's mercy.  That heart is dead, and will remain dead until God changes it.  To say that fallen man has a choice whether to "accept" God as Lord in their life is only correct if you understand that choice as limited to "no I won't accept Him" or "no I won't accept Him."  The reason that it must be understood like this is because even though the choice to "accept" Christ and repent is reality, it will never be made by the unregenerate man because it is contrary to their nature.  "Accepting" Christ and repenting of our fallenness is a manifestation of God already having changed our heart.  It is a manifestation of the mercy He has already shown us by removing our heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh:

Ezekiel 36:25-27

Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.<SUP>&nbsp; </SUP>I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.<SUP> </SUP>I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

As you can see here, prior to God doing anything we: are filthy, idolatrous, and have a heart of stone.

Oddly enough, this is the state in which many Christians believe they turn to the Lord for forgiveness.&nbsp; One of the problems with that frame of mind is that our redemption is a result of a decision we make.&nbsp; Contrary to that position is the understanding that when we say, "we were powerless in our inequity" we mean just that.&nbsp; We were powerless.&nbsp; Here's what God does: He cleanses us from our filthiness and idolatry, He gives us a new heart and puts a new spirit in us, He takes out our heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh, He puts HIS Spirit within us and CAUSES US TO WALK IN HIS STATUTES and keep His judgments.

The fallen man makes the choice to not "accept" God because it is in keeping with their fallen nature.&nbsp; They will always decide in keeping with their nature.&nbsp; A fallen, depraved being will never say, "I want to be righteous like Jesus."&nbsp; It just won't happen.&nbsp; It's not a coincidence.&nbsp; It's all going to happen according to&nbsp;God's plan.

The thing&nbsp;which Christian's can take so much comfort and joy in is that God, being totally righteous, decided to save us even though we were&nbsp;totally unrighteous.&nbsp; Too often the emphasis is put on the person saved rather than on Him who we were saved for.&nbsp; The Gospel isn't about us.&nbsp; It's about Him.&nbsp; It has never been The Father, us, and the Holy Ghost.&nbsp; It's the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

The thing that I find the most ironic of this entire "predestined/elect vs. Jesus died for the sins of all men" debate is that the biggest naysayers, as to the position of election unto salvation, are those that believe they are already saved.&nbsp; Is that because we all have loved ones that aren't saved and we just don't want to imagine them suffering eternal damnation and so we can't believe in any theological position that includes that possibility?

Just for a second, those of you who oppose the idea of predestined election, imagine that it is actually true.&nbsp; Then imagine that a loved one is never saved.&nbsp; Is the fact that they are never saved a righteous decision?&nbsp; If your answer is no, who is it that you consider sovereign?

God bless.
 
Upvote 0

Andrew

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2002
4,974
22
✟13,840.00
Faith
Non-Denom
The Bible clearly says Christ died for sinners.

1 Tim 1:15 The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. And I am the foremost of sinners;

Who are sinners? ALL MEN -- for all men have sin and fallen short of the glory of God.

IOW Christ died for all men. It's that simple.

Another way to look at it:

What were the blood animal sacrifices in the the OC for? Sin in sinners.

So what is the Lamb of God sacrifice for? Sin which is found in all men. So Christ died for all men, not an elect group of Christians.
 
Upvote 0

Thunderchild

Sheep in Wolf's clothing
Jan 5, 2002
1,542
1
68
Adelaide
Visit site
✟3,180.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Certainly - The Christ died on behalf of all men. Of that there is no doubt.
Be careful with the quotes
There is one sin that leads to death. That is the blaphemy of the Holy Spirit.
The correct statement - there is only one sin which will not be forgiven. By direct statement, Jesus declared that not all sins would be forgiven.


The point is that Christ's death did not bring about the forgiveness of all the sins of all men - that only nullified the impossibility that any sin could be forgiven.
 
Upvote 0

Reformationist

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Mar 7, 2002
14,273
465
51
✟37,095.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Originally posted by Andrew
The Bible clearly says Christ died for sinners.

I don't think anyone is contradicting this.&nbsp; The question isn't whether Christ died for sinners, but rather was it all sinners&nbsp;He died for.&nbsp;

Who are sinners? ALL MEN -- for all men have sin and fallen short of the glory of God.

Yes, all men are sinners.&nbsp; But as shown by the verse you quote, scripture does not imply that the reason Christ died was to "provide the opportunity" for salvation.&nbsp; It says:

"Christ Jesus came into the world TO SAVE sinners" (v. 15)

He came TO SAVE sinners.&nbsp; Additionally, since Christ's death didn't save all sinners then His death wasn't intended to save all sinners.&nbsp; Either you think His death was intended to save "all people" and His death wasn't sufficient to accomplish the task, i.e. He didn't have the power to affect His&nbsp;Will,&nbsp;or, His death wasn't intended to save everyone and His Will was that everyone who is saved is saved because it was His Will that they be saved.

IOW Christ died for all men. It's that simple.

As I said before, this line of reasoning does nothing to give honor to Him that made the sacrifice.&nbsp;&nbsp;All it does is say that Christ died, all men have a chance to be saved, and I am saved because I put my trust in Him.&nbsp; It's about what you did to get saved.&nbsp; It's not about what HE did to save you.

Another way to look at it:

What were the blood animal sacrifices in the the OC for? Sin in sinners.

I'm sorry...was there an instance in which the "animal sacrifice" paid the price for the sins of someone other than who it was given for?&nbsp; Didn't think so.

So Christ died for all men, not an elect group of Christians.

I don't know of anyone who espouses the belief in predestined election unto salvation that would say that Christ's sacrifice was for an "elect group of Christians."&nbsp; The belief, so you know, since you obviously don't understand the position, is that Christ died for Christians, which are an "elect group of mankind."&nbsp; He didn't die for everyone, only Christians.

God bless.
 
Upvote 0

Reformationist

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Mar 7, 2002
14,273
465
51
✟37,095.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Originally posted by Thunderchild
Certainly - The Christ died on behalf of all men. Of that there is no doubt.

Strange... :scratch: If there's no doubt maybe you could explain the entire position of predestination.&nbsp; There are many who believe something contrary to that which you state.&nbsp; So, I guess, there is actually doubt, or outright disagreement, with your position.

The point is that Christ's death did not bring about the forgiveness of all the sins of all men - that only nullified the impossibility that any sin could be forgiven.

Huh??? :confused: I don't understand what you're saying here.&nbsp; Could you rephrase?

Thanks.

God bless.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Thunderchild

Sheep in Wolf's clothing
Jan 5, 2002
1,542
1
68
Adelaide
Visit site
✟3,180.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Quite correct: Of that I have no doubt would have been a better wording - though I won't quibble with your statement that he died on behalf of believers.

Without a propitiation for sins, believing would not be of any effect: the law would still demand the penalty for sin.

No-one is precluded from participation in the bestowal of grace, but no-one will be forced to participate (and some will not choose to participate).

Does that make my position clearer?
 
Upvote 0

Reformationist

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Mar 7, 2002
14,273
465
51
✟37,095.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Originally posted by Thunderchild
Without a propitiation for sins, believing would not be of any effect: the law would still demand the penalty for sin.

I agree.&nbsp; However, the ability to believe in God's righteousness, and thus live&nbsp;according to it, is a result of Christ's sacrifice.&nbsp; Therefore, if Christ's death was the payment then our belief in His promise was not the catalyst for our salvation.&nbsp; Our salvation is the result of His sacrifice, not our belief, at least not the belief that is spawned from the fallen heart.

No-one is precluded from participation in the bestowal of grace, but no-one will be forced to participate (and some will not choose to participate).

If not for God taking out the heart of stone of His elect they would&nbsp;"believe" no more than the non-elect.&nbsp; It is only by His&nbsp;Grace that we are able to see&nbsp;truth in His Word.&nbsp; The mere fact that some choose not to participate is the&nbsp;proof that His Grace was not extended to all.&nbsp;

God bless.
 
Upvote 0

tericl2

A Work in Progress
Feb 2, 2002
741
6
49
Tulsa, OK
Visit site
✟1,594.00
Faith
Christian
2 Peter 3

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends : With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you , not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. (NIV)


If God does not want ANYONE to perish, but would like instead for EVERYONE to come to repentance...doesn't it stand to reason that he will give everyone at least the opportunity to come to that repentance? This is a very clear cut verse, and it takes some very creative doctrinal gymnastics to explain it in any way but that which is evident.
 
Upvote 0

Caedmon

kawaii
Supporter
Dec 18, 2001
17,359
570
R'lyeh
✟49,383.00
Faith
Catholic
Politics
US-Others
Originally posted by tericl2
2 Peter 3

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends : With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness.

His promise is to save all that believe on His Name. "All that believe" is the Elect. The Elect are those that He chose before the foundations of the Earth were laid.

He is patient with you , not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (NIV)

"He is patient with you,&nbsp;not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance"

  1. you
  2. anyone
  3. everyone

Who is the "you" addressed here? Is he talking to a group of nonChristians? No, this is an epistle addressed to the Christian community. In fact, in the first part of the scripture, he calls his audience "dear friends". It is very clear that he is talking about his Christian brothers, and those that are being taught the Gospel and those that are being daily added to their numbers. Overall, the scripture discusses the glorious reassurance that God will in fact save all those that He has chosen. He "is not slow", even though some remain unregenerated for several years before they are finally regenerated.

Essentially, the "you", the "anyone", and the "everyone" are all the same people. They are&nbsp;Christians and&nbsp;future and/or new Christians&nbsp;of the body the author addresses, all of whom are part of the Elect.

Still not convinced? Let's look at the author's intent, stated in the the first verse of the chapter:

This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,&nbsp;that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles. - II Peter 3:1&amp;2, NASB, bolding mine

If he's not writing to Christians(beloved), and thus part of the Elect, then who in the world is he talking to? Who else can claim true heritage to the apostles that&nbsp;spoke/taught "the commandment of the Lord and Savior"??? :confused:
 
Upvote 0

tericl2

A Work in Progress
Feb 2, 2002
741
6
49
Tulsa, OK
Visit site
✟1,594.00
Faith
Christian
Originally posted by humblejoe


His promise is to save all that believe on His Name. "All that believe" is the Elect. The Elect are those that He chose before the foundations of the Earth were laid.



"He is patient with you,&nbsp;not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance"

  1. you
  2. anyone
  3. everyone

Who is the "you" addressed here? Is he talking to a group of nonChristians? No, this is an epistle addressed to the Christian community. In fact, in the first part of the scripture, he calls his audience "dear friends". It is very clear that he is talking about his Christian brothers, and those that are being taught the Gospel and those that are being daily added to their numbers. Overall, the scripture discusses the glorious reassurance that God will in fact save all those that He has chosen. He "is not slow", even though some remain unregenerated for several years before they are finally regenerated.

Essentially, the "you", the "anyone", and the "everyone" are all the same people. They are&nbsp;Christians and&nbsp;future and/or new Christians&nbsp;of the body the author addresses, all of whom are part of the Elect.

Still not convinced? Let's look at the author's intent, stated in the the first verse of the chapter:

This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,&nbsp;that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles. - II Peter 3:1&amp;2, NASB, bolding mine

If he's not writing to Christians(beloved), and thus part of the Elect, then who in the world is he talking to? Who else can claim true heritage to the apostles that&nbsp;spoke/taught "the commandment of the Lord and Savior"??? :confused:

As I said, creativity is necessary. You know, the Greek word for "all" and "everyone" is also used when it talks about Jesus' power over all. And to apply your definition would necessarily mean that Jesus doesn't really have power over all. Just all of a small group!

But is says that Jesus has "all" or "everything" under his feet! Praise God he does. However by your definitoin this isn't wholly true. So, he died for the whole world and the whole world is under his feet and subject to him. Are we to interpret these verses differently to suit the doctrine of predestination? Or should we follow the copious number of examples through out the Old and New Testaments that show that God gave us free will and has given us the ability to choose?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Caedmon

kawaii
Supporter
Dec 18, 2001
17,359
570
R'lyeh
✟49,383.00
Faith
Catholic
Politics
US-Others
Originally posted by tericl2
As I said, creativity is necessary. You know, the Greek word for "all" and "everyone" is also used when it talks about Jesus' power over all. And to apply your definition would necessarily mean that Jesus doesn't really have power over all. Just all of a small group!

That is incorrect. You're confusing God's sovereignty and election. God is sovereign over all people in the universe, controlling everyone's actions. But He extends his salvation only to those that He elected before the Earth was created.

But is says that Jesus has "all" or "everything" under his feet! Praise God he does. However by your definitoin this isn't wholly true. So, he died for the whole world and the whole world is under his feet and subject to him. Are we to interpret these verses differently to suit the doctrine of predestination? Or should we follow the copious number of examples through out the Old and New Testaments that show that God gave us free will and has given us the ability to choose?

Again, you're confusing sovereignty and election. Just because He doesn't save someone doesn't mean He couldn't have saved them if He wanted to. The "whole world" is indeed "under his feet and subject to him", but you misunderstand. God controls every action that has and will ever take place, in order for the universe to come out exactly to His preordered specifications. He controls everything, everything is subject to His total sovereign rule. God's sovereignty and election are difficult to swallow because we&nbsp;desire to do something to effect our salvation; we want to do something to make up for all the bad stuff we've done, and we interpret those actions(faith, contrition, good fruit, etc.)&nbsp;to be what&nbsp;makes us saved. However, it is not man that saves man, but rather God that saves man.
 
Upvote 0

tericl2

A Work in Progress
Feb 2, 2002
741
6
49
Tulsa, OK
Visit site
✟1,594.00
Faith
Christian
That is incorrect. You're confusing God's sovereignty and election. God is sovereign over all people in the universe, controlling everyone's actions. But He extends his salvation only to those that He elected before the Earth was created.

Then there is no hope for the masses. Christianity is exclusive of other beliefs by its very nature, but it is not exclusive to individuals.

Again, you're confusing sovereignty and election. Just because He doesn't save someone doesn't mean He couldn't have saved them if He wanted to. The "whole world" is indeed "under his feet and subject to him", but you misunderstand. God controls every action that has and will ever take place, in order for the universe to come out exactly to His preordered specifications. He controls everything, everything is subject to His total sovereign rule. God's sovereignty and election are difficult to swallow because we desire to do something to effect our salvation; we want to do something to make up for all the bad stuff we've done, and we interpret those actions(faith, contrition, good fruit, etc.) to be what makes us saved. However, it is not man that saves man, but rather God that saves man.

I don't have difficaulty swallowing God's soveriegnty. I know that I can do nothing to EARN my salvation. Yet salvation is a gift. Any gift must be accepted. A gift proffered but not accepted is of no use to the intended receiver. Is Christ's atoning sacrifice good for only the elect few? Did God not offer the WAY to redemption for everyone?

You are right, it is not man that saves, but God. How has he chosen to save us?
Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth , "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Romans 10:13"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

You may look at "believing" as an act of man. However it is simply the aceptance of the proffered gift of life. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. We are saved BY grace, THROUGH faith. You accept the GIFT of grace by what? BELIEVING in your heart and CONFESSING with your mouth.

God does save as only He can. You reach out with your physical hands to receive a gift from your natural father. You reach out with spiritual hands of FAITH and RECEIVE the gift from your spiritual Father.
 
Upvote 0

Reformationist

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Mar 7, 2002
14,273
465
51
✟37,095.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Originally posted by tericl2
I don't have difficaulty swallowing God's soveriegnty. I know that I can do nothing to EARN my salvation.

It's strange.&nbsp; You say, "I know that I can do nothing to earn my salvation" but in the same post you say, "You reach out with spiritual hands of FAITH and RECEIVE the gift from your spiritual Father."&nbsp; It's quite apparent that you attribute your salvation to an act of faith on your part even though, prior to God regenerating your heart,&nbsp;you were still dead in your trespasses and unable to "reach our with your spiritual hands of FAITH and RECEIVE" anything.&nbsp; God reaches out and takes out your heart of stone and replaces it with a heart that can, and does, believe in him:

Eph 2:4,5

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

It doesn't say, "God offered you the gift of salvation and because you took it you were saved."&nbsp; It says, "we were dead in trespasses."&nbsp; Dead doesn't mean "mostly bad."&nbsp; It means, spiritually, we were at enmity with God and nothing we could do could overcome that enmity and reconcile us with He who imposed His righteous Will upon mankind.&nbsp; You speak of having faith as if it's something we have when we're spiritually dead.&nbsp; If you can get past the idea that "if God doesn't save everyone then God isn't fair" you would see that the concept that we would, or even could believe in God in our fallen state is a spiritual impossibility.&nbsp; The only way to come to the conclusion that we could "accept" God's gift of salvation prior to His regenerating us is to totally ignore the understanding that man was totally depraved after the fall.&nbsp; He could do nothing to regain his spiritual independance from his sinful nature.&nbsp; God had to change that relationship, and He doesn't do a halfway job.&nbsp; As it says in Ephesians, God "made us alive together with Christ."&nbsp; It doesn't say He "offered to make us alive."&nbsp; Believe me, the fallen man, if offered in a way that is rejectable, would definitely deny the opportunity.

Yet salvation is a gift.&nbsp; Any gift must be accepted.

I see this sentiment expressed regarding the relationship between God's sovereign Will and man's salvation more than any other.&nbsp; It doesn't even make good grammatical sense, much less good biblical sense.&nbsp; What makes salvation a gift IS NOT our response to it.&nbsp; It's that it's unmerited, as all gifts are.&nbsp; It's that it isn't something we earn, as all other gift's are unearned.&nbsp; Think about it.&nbsp; If we received our salvation BECAUSE of ANYTHING WE DO, be it the faith we think we have separate from God's bestowal, the acts of contrition (i.e. baptism, sinner's prayer, asking God to come in to our lives, etc) our salvation is NO LONGER A GIFT.&nbsp; At that point it's a reward.&nbsp; Gifts aren't gifts because they are accepted.&nbsp; Let's see the dictionary definition of gift:

- something voluntarily transferred by one person to another WITHOUT COMPENSATION

That compensation includes acceptance.&nbsp; Of course, this leads into a another controversial doctrine, that of OSAS vs. OSNAS.&nbsp; Consider the idea of a gift in an everyday scenario:

It's your birthday.&nbsp; You invite me.&nbsp; I buy you a gift because I love you, not because I want praise or anything from you, just because I love you.&nbsp; Now, at this point, it is already a gift.&nbsp; Imagine, it's a gift, and I haven't even given it to you yet.&nbsp; Then comes the day of your birthday party.&nbsp; I bring the gift and give it to you.&nbsp; Guess what?&nbsp; Still a gift.&nbsp; You say, without taking it from me and accepting it, "I don't want it."&nbsp; Guess what?&nbsp; It's still a gift.&nbsp; It's just a gift you didn't accept.&nbsp; As I said, this leads to the discussion of whether we can give back, or lose, the gift salvation.&nbsp; The point is, it's a gift whether you accept it or not.

I am a bit trepidatious when forming these types of analogies where there is a comparison between man's ability to react to man and man's&nbsp;inability to alter God's immutable sovereignty.&nbsp; But, the point remains, God saves His elect WHEN THEY'RE DEAD (spiritually).


Is Christ's atoning sacrifice good for only the elect few?

It's good, and effective, for everyone He intended it to be good, and effective, for.&nbsp; He just didn't call all to redemption, else they would come.&nbsp; No one can "thwart" the Will of God.&nbsp; Either you believe He put the call out but didn't really care who answered, and whoever answers, answers, OR, He called His elect and every single one of them will be saved.&nbsp; Which seems more glorifying to God?

Did God not offer the WAY to redemption for everyone?

As I said, God didn't "offer a way to redemption" for anyone.&nbsp;&nbsp;He&nbsp;REDEEMED some.&nbsp;

You are right, it is not man that saves, but God. How has he chosen to save us?
Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Don't misunderstand.&nbsp; Our confession of Jesus being our&nbsp;Lord and&nbsp;Savior and our belief that God raised Him from the dead&nbsp;is only a possibility for God's elect.&nbsp; Those that God has not granted the grace to believe and confess,&nbsp;simply...won't.&nbsp;

You may look at "believing" as an act of man. However it is simply the aceptance of the proffered gift of life.

Acceptance by who then, if not man?&nbsp; Either believing (accepting)&nbsp;is an act of man or it's not.&nbsp; Once again, you are assigning sovereignty to man as the one who decides who God saves for His glory. :scratch: You're still saying that our "belief unto salvation" is an act that we can do apart from God's intervention.&nbsp; If not for His intervention, no one would believe.

You reach out with your physical hands to receive a gift from your natural father. You reach out with spiritual hands of FAITH and RECEIVE the gift from your spiritual Father.

You reach out to your natural father, you reach out to your spiritual Father...hmmm...who exactly are you saying is the reason you were saved?&nbsp; God's grace, or you reaching out?&nbsp; This is salvation, not a barbie doll.&nbsp; Think about it this way.&nbsp; Eternal damnation is a car coming at you at 100 mph.&nbsp; You're a little kid who can barely walk.&nbsp; If someone doesn't do something, you'll be run over, and you can't do anything about it.&nbsp; Someone reaches out and snatches you out of the way.&nbsp; They don't ask if you want to be snatched out of the way, they just do it.&nbsp; They do it because they love you.&nbsp; That's how you're saved.&nbsp; You don't play a part in it.&nbsp; You contribute to your sanctification by how obedient or obstinate you are to God's Law, but you had no say so in your salvation:


Romans 9:15,16

I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."&nbsp; It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

God bless.
 
Upvote 0

tericl2

A Work in Progress
Feb 2, 2002
741
6
49
Tulsa, OK
Visit site
✟1,594.00
Faith
Christian
Reformationist,

Are you going to keep going around and around on the same ride? You did manage to twist my words to fit into your predetermined evaluation of what you believe.

How does accepting a gift show any sovereignty on man's part?

The gift analogy has absolutley nothing to do with OSNAS. Once you are saved you are "reborn". There is no going back. But it is upon belief (see Rom 10:9,10) that regeneration takes place.

If the elitist viewpoint of the "elect" makes you feel better that is fine. Maybe I am part of the elect, I just don't feel like it most of the time! I made a choice to follow Christ because I wanted to. I guess He could have forced me without me knowing. It just seems funny that there is not much Biblical evidence to show that God forces any of us to do anything.

God Bless.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Reformationist

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Mar 7, 2002
14,273
465
51
✟37,095.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Originally posted by tericl2
Are you going to keep going around and around on the same ride? You did manage to twist my words to fit into your predetermined evaluation of what you believe.

tericl2, how about we discuss this without the animosity?&nbsp; Okay?&nbsp; I didn't twist anything.&nbsp; If you feel that I've misunderstood your position, please clarify it for me.&nbsp; Let us gain insight together.&nbsp;

How does accepting a gift show any sovereignty on man's part?

"Accepting" the gift isn't what shows man's sovereignty in your position.&nbsp; The decision of being saved being up to man is what shows man's sovereignty.&nbsp; Let me explain.&nbsp; You admit that it is&nbsp;God who does the saving.&nbsp; So, I'll start my explanation prior to&nbsp;a person being saved.&nbsp; Let's call the person, John.

So, here's God, with the power to save John.&nbsp; John is fallen (prior to being saved) and totally separated from God.&nbsp;&nbsp;John's sin nature prevents him from seeking the Lord,&nbsp;choosing to worship God, and loving the Lord.

Now, according to you, at this point, John sees that something is missing in his life and turns to the Lord&nbsp;to fill that void.&nbsp; Even&nbsp;though it is the "wooing" of the&nbsp;Holy Spirit which leads John to believe that God may be the answer to his existence, it is still ultimately up to John as to whether he will heed that call.

At this point we need to analyze the situation.&nbsp; John is not yet saved, because he hasn't actually "accepted" God's gift of salvation, and so God, who is, well, God, is waiting for John to make his decision.&nbsp; This is where it gets a little confusing to me.&nbsp; In this scenario either God doesn't really care what happens to John (IOW, it is not His definite Will that John be saved), or, it is God's Will that John be saved but there's a possibility that John may choose otherwise (IOW, God really wants John to be saved, it is His divine Will that John be saved, but there's a possibility that John's will is going to determine something contrary to God's Will).&nbsp; Hmmm...who sounds sovereign here?

Sovereign means to be supreme in authority.&nbsp; Sovereign means to have the power to enact one's will&nbsp;WITHOUT regard or consideration for outside circumstance or influence.&nbsp; Sovereign means to have the power to make the decision AND the power to ensure that the decision is enacted and carried through to completion, no matter what happens separate to that decision.&nbsp; So, in the example above, God really wants John to be saved but John is the one who decides to "accept or reject" God's Will that John be saved.&nbsp; John's will is greater than God's Will.&nbsp; John is sovereign.

The gift analogy has absolutley nothing to do with OSNAS. Once you are saved you are "reborn". There is no going back.

Let me get this straight.&nbsp; You believe it is up to you whether you'll be saved, i.e. you have to make the decision to "accept" God's gift, but, you can do nothing to lose that gift.&nbsp; You did something to get it, but you can't do something to lose it?&nbsp; Is that what you're saying?

But it is upon belief (see Rom 10:9,10) that regeneration takes place.

I never said it wasn't.&nbsp; What I said was that the "belief upon which regeneration takes place" isn't something that&nbsp;is there before God puts it there.&nbsp; And,&nbsp;He doesn't put that regenerative belief in&nbsp;everyone, else everyone would be saved.

If the elitist viewpoint of the "elect" makes you feel better that is fine.

Where, at any point in stating my opinion, did I ever imply, or state outright, that salvation was based on the qualities of the saved?&nbsp; I have never said that those that are saved deserve to be saved any more than those that aren't saved.&nbsp; You see, that's your viewpoint.&nbsp; You are the one that says God saved you because you "chose to accept Him."&nbsp; You are the one who says that your salvation is based upon you making the decision to "accept" God.&nbsp; I'm the one saying that your salvation had nothing to do with one single characteristic of your's, other than your need for a Savior, which doesn't make you elite, it makes you fallen, just like everyone else.

Maybe I am part of the elect, I just don't feel like it most of the time!

Most saved people don't feel worthy.&nbsp; There's nothing wrong with that.&nbsp; The truth is, we aren't worthy.&nbsp;

I made a choice to follow Christ because I wanted to.

Where do you think that desire to follow Christ came from.&nbsp; Was it a remnant of your "pre-fall" nature?&nbsp; Let me enlighten you about the fallen man:

Romans 3:10-18

"There is none righteous, no, not one;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>There is none who understands;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There is NONE WHO SEEKS AFTER GOD.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>They have all turned aside;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; They have together become unprofitable;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There is none who does good, no, not one."&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"Their throat is an open tomb;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; With their tongues they have practiced deceit";&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "The poison of asps is under their lips";&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"Their feet are swift to shed blood;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>Destruction and misery are in their ways;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>And the way of peace they have not known."&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

That's the state of fallen man in which you say he "reaches out with his spiritual hands of FAITH and RECEIVES the gift from&nbsp;his spiritual Father."&nbsp;

I guess He could have forced me without me knowing.

If you're saved, believe me, He did it without your compliance.

It just seems funny that there is not much Biblical evidence to show that God forces any of us to do anything.

God Bless.

Really?&nbsp; Tell you what, be on the look out for a thread, by me about the ways in which God exerts His Will over the will of His creation.

God bless.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.