Pre-wrath rapture in a nutshell

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In case anyone is interested, here's a short description of the pre-wrath rapture view, which IMO is the best fit to scripture. I'm leaving out a LOT of information to keep it simple. All I'm presenting here, in a nutshell, is a comparison of the chronology of the olivet discourse in Matthew vs. Revelation, to show how the two fit.

There are some simple premises:

1. Tribulation is NOT the same as wrath

2. The Bible not only fails to say that we will be spared tribulation, it says we WILL experience tribulation

3. The Bible says we are not appointed to WRATH

4. The great tribulation begins immediately after the man of sin is revealed (abomination of desolation)

5. At some unknown point during the great tribulation, Jesus returns

6. He gathers His elect (the rapture occurs)

7. The Day of the Lord, which is identified by the celestial signs, ends the great tribulation and begins the period when God pours out His wrath upon the world

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Examine the chronology of events in Matthew 24 and the parallels elsewhere.

Here we see that the great tribulation (great distress) begins with the abomination that causes desolation.

15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel -- let the reader understand-- 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains...

21 For then there will be great distress [tribulation], unequaled from the beginning of the world until now-- and never to be equaled again.

The great tribulation will be cut short. Nobody knows how short, which is one reason why we do not know the hour or the day when the Lord will return. The fact that believers will experience this calls for patience and endurance, and knowledge that Jesus will return in glory, and will return in such a way that it will be unmistakable.

22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Immediately after the great tribulation is cut short, the celestial signs of the Day of the Lord will occur.

29 "Immediately after the distress of those days, 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

The elect are gathered, which puts the rapture here.

30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

After this, God pours out His wrath upon the world.

-----------------

Now let's look at this again from Revelation, starting with Revelation 6. For the sake of brevity, I'll leave out most of the verses, but this should show that it includes great persecution and tribulation.

1 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" ...

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

Now here are the celestial signs that signal the Day of the Lord is about to begin. Note the words, "For the great day of their wrath has come," which identifies this as the END of the great tribulation, and the BEGINNING of God's wrath.

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

Revelation 7 begins with the sealing of the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel for special protection during the outpouring of God's wrath.

4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

Then suddenly there appears this great multitude in heaven from every nation, tribe, people and tongue.

9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Then one of the elders asks John, who are these folks? John basically says, "darned if I know."

13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"
14 I answered, "Sir, you know."

So who are they?

15 And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

They are the saints from every nation, etc., who have been raptured out of the great tribulation because the time of wrath is about to begin, and we are not appointed to wrath.
 

Justme

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Hi,

Speaking of chronology, it is written at Rev 19 :11:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat..........

He saw it 'opened, I assume saw it 'opening'.
At Rev 4 :1 John saw heaven standing OPEN and the angel called him up and told John what was going to happen.
SO did all this from 4:1 to 19:11 happen BEFORE chapter 4 or what?

Here is one thing about the book of Revelation. I do not see the Olivet discourse even remotely similar to the way you see it, yet Revelation verifies my interpretation as well.Amazing book.

Anyway what do you make of the 4:1 thing?

Justme
 
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Originally posted by Justme
Hi,

Speaking of chronology, it is written at Rev 19 :11:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat..........

He saw it 'opened, I assume saw it 'opening'.
At Rev 4 :1 John saw heaven standing OPEN and the angel called him up and told John what was going to happen.
SO did all this from 4:1 to 19:11 happen BEFORE chapter 4 or what?

Here is one thing about the book of Revelation. I do not see the Olivet discourse even remotely similar to the way you see it, yet Revelation verifies my interpretation as well.Amazing book.

Anyway what do you make of the 4:1 thing?

Justme

1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

It sounds like this is the author simply explaining how the revelation was given to him. I don't see how this has anything whatsoever to do with the prophecy itself.
 
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Patmosman_sga

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The key to understanding Jesus’ Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 (also Mark 13 and Luke 21) is the apocalyptic “event” which happens "Immediately after the tribulation of those days.” As Matthew records it:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matthew 24:29-31).

Matthew, following the precedent of the Old Testament prophets, uses apocalyptic imagery to describe such "the coming of the Son of Man" after "the tribulation of those days" to "gather his elect from the four winds.” But what is this actually describing? The distinguished New Testament scholar N.T. Wright, in his book The Millennium Myth, (Westminster/John Knox 1999, pp. 41-42) addresses a popular misconception concerning this “coming.”

The central feature of the hope held out in the Bible is of course the personal presence of Jesus himself. Many Christians, not least those who tend towards apocalypticism, have reduced this feature of the hope to the belief that one day Jesus will appear, flying downwards from the sky, perhaps riding on a cloud. This event, the “second coming”, is in fact the event for which many of the groups who see great significance in the year 2000 are getting ready, not least those going off to Jerusalem to witness it.

However, most of the biblical passages that are quoted in support of the idea of Jesus returning by flying downwards on a cloud are best seen as classic examples of apocalyptic language, rich biblical metaphor. They are not to be taken with wooden literalness. “The son of man coming on the clouds”, in Mark 13:26 and elsewhere, does not refer to Jesus’ return to earth, but to Jesus’ vindication, “coming” from earth to heaven, to be enthroned as Lord of the world. And the one occasion when Paul uses the language of descent and ascent (1 Thessalonians 4:16) is almost certainly to be taken in the same way, as a vivid metaphorical description of the wider reality he describes at more length in Romans and 1 Corinthians.

Does this mean abandoning belief in the “second coming”? Certainly not. It means taking seriously the whole biblical picture, instead of highlighting, and misinterpreting, one part of it. The problem has been, in the last two centuries in particular, that certain texts have been read from within the worldview of dualistic apocalypticism, and have thus produced a less than fully biblical picture, with Jesus flying around like a spaceman and the physical world being destroyed. And if we really suppose—as, alas, many seem to—that this will be the meaning of the Millennium, we will miss the point entirely. Rather, the Bible points to God’s new world, where heaven and earth are fully integrated at last, and whose central feature is the personal, loving and healing presence of Jesus himself, the living embodiment of the one true God as well as the prototype of full liberated humanity. When we talk of Jesus’ “coming”, the reality to which we point is his personal presence within God’s new creaton.

So, if we are to fully understand the reality Jesus speaks of in the Olivet Discourse, we must, as Wright suggests, take seriously “the whole biblical picture.” In so doing, we will find that the often enigmatic apocalyptic language of the synoptics is interpreted more plainly within the canon itself.

John (who gave us his fill of apocalyptic with Revelation) states in clear language in his Gospel the exact means by which Jesus gathers his elect:

But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all. Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish." He did not say this of his own accord, being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. (John 11:49-52)

It would appear that John equates Jesus' death with "gather[ing] into one the children of God who are scattered abroad." Paul agrees, proclaiming that the cross is God’s instrument of reconciliation:

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near through the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility." (Ephesians 2:13-16)

But if the cross is the instrument through which Christ "gathers" his elect, what is the purpose of Matthew's apocalyptic imagery concerning something that, contextually, appears to be describing something that happens after the crucifixion? A careful reading of Matthew reveals that he is not ignorant of the significance of the cross in bringing "all these things" about:

And Jesus cried out with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit. And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, the were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!" (Matthew 27:50-54)

Luke, also, in an even more explicit manner, connects the cross with the cataclysmic "events" spoken of by Matthew and the other synoptics:

It was now about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, while the sun's light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last. (Luke 23:44-46)

(It is significant to note that he "curtain of the temple," guarding access to the Holy of Holies, was a tapestry resembling the stars of heaven.)

Understanding the cross as the center of God's redemptive plan is key to understanding the eschatological prophecies concerning "the end of the age." For, in Christ, that "end" has come. Paul even goes so far as to equate Christ with "the end of the ages" (1 Corinthians 10:11). But history continues under the long shadow of the cross until it has served God's purpose in gathering all his people into one. For everything that God has spoken forth into being will endure for as long as it is accomplishing that for which he created it:

For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:10-11)

Meanwhile, a "new" temple is being built, not of stones and mortar but, as Paul continues in his epistle to the Ephesians:

And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. (Ephesians 2:17-22)

This "temple" is, at one and the same time, a finished product (established from the foundation of the world) and a work in progress, building both upon and toward the ultimate victory of God in Christ.

The big transition which takes place in the midst of history after the cross, however, is that any and every "event" which takes place from now on is understood by looking back to Calvary, whereas previously (that is, in the Old Testament), all such "events" looked forward to it.

The fall of Jerusalem is the first major "event" to be understood from such a post-Calvary perspective. If one is looking for a precise event or series of events which bring the Olivet Discourse to fulfillment within history, one need look no further than the fall of Jerusalem some forty years after Jesus’ death and resurrection. There are countless other "events" which have since taken place which have, for one all too brief moment, caused the whole world (or a significant portion of it) to be reminded of God's eternal truth, established from the foundation of the world and made plain in the death and resurrection of Christ: Whenever we are confronted with the harsh reality of our sinfulness and its devastating consequences, we cannot seek refuge in a temple made by human hands. We must go all the way to Calvary, be crucified with Christ, and find there the only path God has provided for redemption, restoration and resurrection.

What, then, is "the sign of the Son of Man?" It is the cross, shining with a splendor that outlasts the sun, the moon and the stars of heaven, casting its long shadow over the whole of human history, gathering God's elect and reconciling all things to God in Christ.

What, then, shall we say about "rapture" theology? In his first letter to Timothy, Paul warns his young protégé about those who “devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith” (1 Timothy 1:4).

Vain speculations about “the end of the world” do not serve the kingdom of God well. Good stewards of the mysteries of God will guard well the grand depositum of faith bequeathed to us by the Apostles, who received them from our Lord himself. Central to the proclamation of the kingdom of God is the cross of Jesus Christ which is, at one and the same time, the sign and symbol of both the suffering servant and the glorified Son of Man who is forevermore King of kings and Lord of lords.
 
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Justme

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Hi Patmosman,

From your post:

The key to understanding Jesus’ Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 (also Mark 13 and Luke 21) is
the apocalyptic “event” which happens "Immediately after the tribulation of those days.”
******************
I think the KEY is to determine the timeframe of the tribulation that Jesus considers the Great Tribulation. If you knowthat then you cansort out what the coming of the son of man is all about and the Book of Revelation suddenly becomes understandable.

I don't disagree with what you wrote other than I don't find it decisive. Let's just say "all these things will happen before this generation passes," and remember it was Jesus that said it, and remember who He said it to.

Justme
 
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Patmosman_sga

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If the cross is not decisive, then I don't know what is. And you will note that I am not ignorant of the obvious meaning of "this generation." I said:

The fall of Jerusalem is the first major "event" to be understood from such a post-Calvary perspective. If one is looking for a precise event or series of events which bring the Olivet Discourse to fulfillment within history, one need look no further than the fall of Jerusalem some forty years after Jesus’ death and resurrection.
 
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Originally posted by Justme
To npetreley,

No, nothing to do with the prophecy angle. Just what happened when.
John looks up in chapter 4 and sees Heaven open, then 15 chapters later he tells us he sees heaven 'opening'.It was already open from chapter 4.
Or whatever???

Justme

I still don't understand what's confusing about this. One is what happened to John, and the other is a vision of the future.

Are you simply having trouble with the fact that it opens twice? Don't the doors in your house/apartment/whatever open and close? Or once they are open, are they stuck in that position forever. ;)
 
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Patmosman_sga

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Originally posted by npetreley


I still don't understand what's confusing about this. One is what happened to John, and the other is a vision of the future.

Are you simply having trouble with the fact that it opens twice? Don't the doors in your house/apartment/whatever open and close? Or once they are open, are they stuck in that position forever. ;)

What John sees in chapter 4 and what he sees in chapter 19 are one and the same. The Greek is an aorist passive, "having been opened." The nature of apocalyptic vision is such that the seer (in this case, John) relates what he sees sequentially while actually having seen it synchronously. It's like trying to describe the panoramic view you would have from the top of a mountain overlooking a vast terrain. You see everything at the same time, but you can't describe the whole vision all at once.

The passive voice indicates that the entrance into heaven has been opened as a result of some past action, namely, the death and resurrection of Christ.
 
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Patmosman_sga

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My point is that Jesus' death and resurrection have opened the "door" into heaven. More generally speaking, the whole book of Revelation has to do with the implications of Jesus' death and resurrection. Everything that was, is, and is to come must be understood in light of this one decisive act of God in human history. Leave that out of the equation and you get, well, the goofy theology of Tim LaHaye, et al.
 
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Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
My point is that Jesus' death and resurrection have opened the "door" into heaven. More generally speaking, the whole book of Revelation has to do with the implications of Jesus' death and resurrection. Everything that was, is, and is to come must be understood in light of this one decisive act of God in human history. Leave that out of the equation and you get, well, the goofy theology of Tim LaHaye, et al.

I wouldn't call Tim LaHaye's theology goofy. IMO it is based on a misreading of scripture and incorrect assumptions. Therefore it is seriously flawed. IMO, preterism is based on even more misreadings of scripture and is even more seriously flawed.

I reserve words like "goofy" for things like Jesus being a time traveller, or the belief that we're all going to be resurrected in Harry's Bar and Grill in Jersey City, NJ.
 
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Patmosman_sga

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There are a good number of serious theologians who use the word "goofy" to describe LaHaye's theology.

The basic flaw in all systematic approaches to eschatology--whether it's preterism, historicism or futurism--is the confident assumption that the whole plan of God for the salvation of the world can be neatly placed along a rigid, linear, chronological timeline. The emphasis is placed on "events" rather than on the Person in Whom "all things" are restored and shall be restored. Incarnational eschatology is a far superior method because it keeps the focus squarely on Christ and keeps his death and resurrection squarely in focus as the decisive act of God in human history to effect the salvation of humankind and, eventually, the restoration of all things.
 
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Originally posted by Patmosman_sga

Incarnational eschatology is a far superior method because it keeps the focus squarely on Christ and keeps his death and resurrection squarely in focus as the decisive act of God in human history to effect the salvation of humankind and, eventually, the restoration of all things.

I think you're making a connection between motive and method that doesn't exist.

The motive for using the method you chose is terrific. I'm all for getting our priorities straight and focusing on Christ over interpretation of prophecy. But while that motive may be unassailable, it doesn't mean the method you've BASED on that motive will lead you to a correct interpretation.

Not that any of us do have a totally correct interpretation. IMO, we're ALL going to look back and slap our foreheads...
 
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Patmosman_sga

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Of course, none of us are going to get it entirely correct, but it is important to be faithful to the tradition of the Apostles, all of whom viewed Christ as the fulfillment of the Old Covenant and the mediator of the New Covenant. John, in particular, was meticulously incarnational in his theological method, as witnessed in all his writings including, indeed especially, Revelation. Paul, as well, took an incarnational approach (even though scholars have often looked at him as the first "sytematic" theologian), as did Peter.

The only truly "systematic" book in the New Testament is the Epistle of James, not exactly the favorite of "Sola Fide" Reformed types.

I lean heavily toward the incarnational approach to eschatology because, first of all, I believe it is true to the Apostolic faith and, second, it is more holistic in its understanding of how our salvation is complete and being completed and how creation is redeemed and being redeemed. Also, such an approach is, by necessity, only one part of a wholly developed incarnational theology, which sees the Person of Christ as the pattern for living a life which truly reflects the image of God and the values of the kingdom. Most of the people I have observed who use a systematic (chronological) approach to eschatology do not have a fully developed systematic theology. Their charts, maps and timelines apparently stand on their own, which is why they are so prone to aberration.
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
There are a good number of serious theologians who use the word "goofy" to describe LaHaye's theology.

The basic flaw in all systematic approaches to eschatology--whether it's preterism, historicism or futurism--is the confident assumption that the whole plan of God for the salvation of the world can be neatly placed along a rigid, linear, chronological timeline. The emphasis is placed on "events" rather than on the Person in Whom "all things" are restored and shall be restored. Incarnational eschatology is a far superior method because it keeps the focus squarely on Christ and keeps his death and resurrection squarely in focus as the decisive act of God in human history to effect the salvation of humankind and, eventually, the restoration of all things.

Some preachers are called of God and some call themselves. Some of us put and have faith in God. Some chase after mere teachings of men. It is the Holy Spirit's ministry to convict the nonbeliever and guide him into all truth, but that is very hard to do if your faith is strangled by the teachings of men. We were commanded to seek and keep knocking. It appears that you refuse to take your eyes off the cross, which is good when you are leading someone to the knowledge of the truth, but these babes are gonna grow. If they do, they will want to eat meet. A baby only drinks milk for so long. Your keep passing the bottle around, and because you are following the teachings of mere men, you are missing all the the Holy Spirit would have you to know. The Bible says that in the last days scoffers will come. Is this your theme??

I'll pass on your milk. Save it for the next nonbeliever. Some brothers are mighty hungry, and I doubt that they will be satisfied with the milk you have to offer. Aren't you holding on to and posting your preterist view, which is violating the wishes of the management of this forum??
 
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Patmosman_sga

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Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER


Some preachers are called of God and some call themselves. Some of us put and have faith in God. Some chase after mere teachings of men. It is the Holy Spirit's ministry to convict the nonbeliever and guide him into all truth, but that is very hard to do if your faith is strangled by the teachings of men. We were commanded to seek and keep knocking. It appears that you refuse to take your eyes off the cross, which is good when you are leading someone to the knowledge of the truth, but these babes are gonna grow. If they do, they will want to eat meet. A baby only drinks milk for so long. Your keep passing the bottle around, and because you are following the teachings of mere men, you are missing all the the Holy Spirit would have you to know. The Bible says that in the last days scoffers will come. Is this your theme??

I'll pass on your milk. Save it for the next nonbeliever. Some brothers are mighty hungry, and I doubt that they will be satisfied with the milk you have to offer. Aren't you holding on to and posting your preterist view, which is violating the wishes of the management of this forum??

ROTFLOL!!! I was particularly amused by your comment about me refusing to take my eyes off the cross. Since Jesus said we are to take up our cross daily and follow him, I suppose I'm in pretty good company.

With regard to spiritual food, there is milk for "babes in Christ" and there is "solid food" for the mature believers. A sure sign of spiritual immaturity is presumptuousness, which leads to smug statements like, "Some of us put and have faith in God. Some chase after mere teachings of men." It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the implication of such a statement. Believers who are truly mature do not have to go around touting their spiritual superiority at the expense of others, whom they presume to be lacking in some area of the faith. The beliefs and teachings of such "scoffers" (eg. pre-wrath rapture) are less even than "milk." They amount to nothing short of pabulum.

As for living in the last days, I would say we certainly are. That is, the last days of such anti-biblical views as rapturism. Thank God for people like N.T. Wright, Ben Witherington and Scott Hahn, who are presenting articulate, scholarly challenges to such nonsense and cannot, in any way, be accused of holding on to a "preterist" perspective. 
 
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