On what terms would you attempt to convert a freethinker?

No. I wouldn't try to convert anyone. I'm not sure whether they'd be better off, depends how you understand "Christianity", too.
I see it more like, I'm open to have people take a look at my own search, to encourage them in theirs, let them encourage me in mine. And probably beyond that I do want people to check out whether Christianity might be for them, let them see the positive sides. Yup =)

Math is a Universal.
On any level, on any place, as a matter of fact, it is considered to be the universal language of the universe. But that is for another time.

I don't intend to show you their research. That would be off subject entirely, as they were just examples. If you don't know the work of these psychological/psychiatric researchers, well I suggest your local library, some introductory psych. college courses or right there where you sit at Wikipedia. Anyway, I don't think it's essential for this discussion, so don't worry about it.

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They had “Implied” answers, and respected that the more complex the thought pattern, the less the result will be exact or predictable.

Hence, with all the influence you endure by your “Christian Parents”, why aren't you Christian? By the works of many of those authors, you should be. I guess, your existence proves that they are not as exact as one would like to believe.

But I don't see what it has to do with ethics based on reason.

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You believe what you are influenced to believe. If the media and other sources can have such an impact, then they can influence every thought you have, including your morals. Unless you cling to a universal, then, what ever you have, is mutable. This influence and can be controlled by outside influence, I'll get to that in a moment.

I don't perceive to understand anything about your faith because I have no idea what it is as I have not read your profile! For all I know you could be anything from afundamentalist to a pro-gay lutheran! Or anything as orthodox as the bishop of Canterbury to your neighborhood mormon elder! Do I know? Should I know? Should it matter even? Not that I know.

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Humm but.. But you said....

On the lighter side, I was tempted to say: "That's for sure, like I was influenced by my Catholic parents (and still am, alas!), Church, Sunday school, my three Bibles, theist friends, Catholic grade school and high school, the 4 or more fundamentalist TV channels, frequent praying, and oh good grief Holy Week movies and processions...! I'm still getting post-traumatic flashbacks starring Charlton Heston from last Easter! I'm only suprised I'm not an atheist from all of it!" (kidding)

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Or were you kidding all of that?


I mean, if you did have the benefit of any of that,? Or was that all just a joke for my amusement?.


I do not mean to pry into your personal life.


But I digress, Lets just carry on..


It seems you really do not comprehend the nature of what you asked and what it was so silly in it's foundation, allow me the moment to explain. It seems this might come form a failure to comprehend the Christian Faith at it basic premise. So with that, I would like to take this moment to explain some things.


Lets look at the Question:
Would you agree with me? Let's see with a simple question: If a god/God commanded you to drop 3 H-bombs, one over New York, one over Hamburg and one over Tehran, would you do it? If you say no, that your morals are strict and you will uphold them no matter what, then you agree with me. If you say yes, I wouldn't consider you ethics to be following a "concrete moral code" (to put it in your words).


Now, Notice, if God( was your opening statement) now, if “a god” commanded any Christan to do something the short response would be to Refuse


That is because we as Christians do not serve “a god” we serve the “One Only God” and we have no God above “God”, there is an important difference there. So that is something you should keep in mind for when you ask these questions.


So Lets say “God Almighty” commanded that we Christians do something. Now this gets even better, because the question implies that “God” really did make the command, this providing Direct proof of Gods Existence to the Believer, and presenting a Mission for that Believer.


Lets look at what you said.


If the “Follower” says No (being a Bad follower and Rejecting the Creator of all things): You would say: If you say no, that your morals are strict and you will uphold them no matter what, then you agree with me.


Odd that you would state that. Because, if we look at what you said for Yes (being a Good follower and Obeying the Creator of all things).
If you say yes, I wouldn't consider you ethics to be following a "concrete moral code" (to put it in your words).


So let me see if I have this little judgment thing you have going on here, figured out.


If I refuse my Lord God, (My Creator and Savor) I am morally just?

Numero tres: "...refuse to post in any type of anger"? Well, you just confessedly did!

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No, I refused to “Post in Anger” IE: I did not Continue on that Topic, I stopped, I realize this, must come as a bit confusing to you, but when someone says “I am going to stop now because I refuse to post in anger” they are not angry at the moment they stopped, hence why they stopped in the first place.



I hope I have give you some things to think about.


Peace and Best Wishes.


God Bless
Key.

Well, thank you. Honest, clear, authoritative! (Why am I sounding like a paperback critic phrase? ). Anyway...

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LOL!! Thank you for a pleasant critique. (-:

Mandatory
Most of us would say that we're not obligated to a church or a mandatory set of rules, but since most of us use the scriptures as the purest form of direction, then we ultimately veer back to them.

Denominations like Mormonism and Jehovah's Witness seem to have more enforcement of "clean living" rules than most denominations I've been involved in.

Coffee
It's good for asthma.

Vegetarianism
The diet lacks lysine, and can get awfully carb-loaded.

depends on how you define missionary work. i used to be more "offensive" with my faith in the past. through what i've experienced, through listening to non-christians and through changes in my faith i have come to the conclusion that at the point where i am at now, i can't do this anymore.
i do child- and youthwork, though, right now with kids who come from a christian background only. i will probably soon deal with others, though. it is my aim to convey values like self-worth and respecting, loving/ caring for others to those kids based on christianity or what i understand christianity to be. i am dedicated to try not to do that with pressure or manipulation, though. i wanna give em a chance to find a way to God/ christianity themselves.

oh, have i ever brought anyone into christianity. mhhhh. been an arrow guiding people into that direction, i guess!

Honestly, I'm not going to pretend I understand everything that's been posted in this topic, because some of it is seriously complicated, and my brain hurts. But in response to the OP, all of my friends have been aware I am a Christian pretty much since they met me, and they came to me with questions - and a lot of them. So I never had to try to "convert" them or force anything on them, I just told them the things they wanted to know to the best of my ability and prayed for them. They've all become Christians since of their own accord, and the only non-Christian friends I have are my newest friends, and I personally have faith that they'll become Christians with time too. I've learnt heaps and HEAPS about religion and faith and people's different views from talking to them about it, so I guess you could say the whole thing is mutually beneficial to all of us

Sokratikos said:

"Permit myself to present myself".... I am a humanist, which is my ethical and cultural stance, and agnostic as my epsitemologico-onotlogical stance.:o Anyway...

On what terms would you attempt to convert a freethinker? Would you try at all? Why do you think your hypothetical attmpts work? (I could go on and on!) Do you think the freethinker would be better off as a Christian (X-ian in general or in your particular flavor)?

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Hello,

Here are a few thoughts on your questions:

I think any system that makes truth claims is obliged to justify those claims. If it cannot, then such a system can and should be considered at best superstition. Christianity makes claims both regarding the existence of an Absolute, but also that the individual is cared for and in fact loved by that Absolute. Moreover, Christians claim Jesus is the Christ and thereby the essential figure through which salvation is attainable. Regardless the perspective of the would be investigator of these claims, I think the only justification for the Christian message lies in and through revelation. Other appeals simply beg the question. The terms of any would be conversion would have to be: personal revelation.

-Would you try?

From the closer of the Gospels Christians have been charged to preach to all nations: so yes.

-Hypothetical attempts working?

Personal experience. If there is no verification schema then, as stated above, any claim is empty.

-Better off a Christian?

If one holds that the Christian message is true and one values the true then they must believe any would be better off knowing the same. In short: truth is its own justification.

Sokratikos said:

"Permit myself to present myself".... I am a humanist, which is my ethical and cultural stance, and agnostic as my epsitemologico-onotlogical stance.:o Anyway...

On what terms would you attempt to convert a freethinker? Would you try at all? Why do you think your hypothetical attmpts work? (I could go on and on!) Do you think the freethinker would be better off as a Christian (X-ian in general or in your particular flavor)?

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How would I attempt to covert a freethinker? First I would listen to his/her beliefs and ideas.Second I would tell him/her about our Lord Jesus Christ,The life he lived and why he gave his life for us.I would preach the love of Christ and how we can find salvation through him.As I said before We as christians are not to convert but to plant a seed and let the Holy Spirt do the rest.Thirdly I would keep him/her in my prayers.God Bless

LilLamb219 said:

I agree that there ARE people who feel that they need to be in your face about religion and as a Christian, I find it rather embarrassing. That type of evangelizing isn't as effective as the type where you get to know the people and befriend them, then answer their questions later or bring up a tidbit every now and again.

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The Bible teaches us Christians to preach the Gospel to all nations.Not by sitting in front of a tv or at the mall buying stuff.But to go into the streets and preach.It's almost like what someone at church told me "If you have the Cure for cancer in your hands would you not speak up and give it to people who needed it or would you give into fear as people are dying."We as christians have found the key to eternal life which is through Jesus Christ should we not share it with everybody else.I find door to door evangelizing the most effective.The Befriending method is less effective because it takes a person a year to gain the person's trust and to start talking about Jesus.A door to door preacher will have preach to thousands of people a year.We will plant a seed and let God do the rest.We as christians are not to convert but to plant a seed and let the Holy Spirt do the rest.Remember we are to follow Christ example as christians.Did Jesus hide inside his house or did he not go out into the world and preach.If you are embarrassed of us christians who follow what God told us to do,then your embarrassed by what Jesus taught as well.God Bless


Matthew 28:19-20"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

MARK 16:15"Then he told them go in to all the world and preach to all creation".

1 Corinthians 9:16"Yet when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, for I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!

1) Christianity is divided far beyond the dismissable. Bad case for demonstrating supernatural guidance "from up above". How would an outsider trust? If the Spirit couldn't help -say- Martin Luther, George Fox, St Thomas Aquinas or Charles T Russell (J.W.s) to get it straight? (Logic dictates that only one or none got it straight)

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Many of these movements and trains of thought started as corrections. Most divergent teaching happens this way. People realize they have swung too far in one direction, and confront the problem. Those who agree latch on, start meeting together, and eventually a denomination takes form.

In reality, the borders are not as defined, and the believers do not adhere strictly. People read a mix of teachings on their own, and work out their own faith fairly independently of their denominations.

Logic dictates that they saw a specific need and addressed it....they weren't trying to get a perfect truth, but to correct injustices.

In contemporary situations, I see the Spirit working to adjust teachings more intensely than you'd imagine. Each person faces different circumstances.

Some have abundance, some struggle with poverty. Some are severely oppressed, some are so autonomous that they use God at their convenience.

Everyone needs different teachings at different times in their lives...all within the same context. In the Bible we will find complaints about how unfair things seem (Psalms, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations) as well as verses on God defending us (psalms, epistles). The Word of God seems concrete and rigid, but is quite ameoboid and living.

I have watched wonderful corrections within churches--and I don't expect you to see circumstances as the hand of God, or recognize inner voices as spiritual guidance.

In one instance, a traditional neighborbhood church had grown cultish, and people devoted every waking hour to church life, dictating every part of each others' outside lives.

Someone gave a prophecy on "pride comes before a fall." Suddenly things fell apart. Members were distraught, and felt like God had abandoned them.

What actually resulted, was protection and defense for the people who had been oppressed in that regime. Influential members dispersed, and ended up in voiceless corners of new "safer" churches (sad, of course). Oppressed people were freed to form their own lives. People who had disagreed with what went on banded together for support.

These kinds of warpings happen all the time, and God corrects them. When they get large, we label them movements. (Word of Faith, Holiness, etc.) But it's all based on individuals' protection, straightening out unfounded teachings, and trying to follow where God is leading us for the time.

The Word is still there, unchanging, but complex enough to address each situation.

GodOwnsMe said:

depends on how you define missionary work. i used to be more "offensive" with my faith in the past. through what i've experienced, through listening to non-christians and through changes in my faith i have come to the conclusion that at the point where i am at now, i can't do this anymore.
i do child- and youthwork, though, right now with kids who come from a christian background only. i will probably soon deal with others, though. it is my aim to convey values like self-worth and respecting, loving/ caring for others to those kids based on christianity or what i understand christianity to be. i am dedicated to try not to do that with pressure or manipulation, though. i wanna give em a chance to find a way to God/ christianity themselves.

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I pretty much feel the same with this quote.

Not everyone has a 'gift' of evangelism - many people aren't the type that go hit the streets & russtle up strangers to witness to - & quite honestly, when people do it to me when I'm out, it irritates me.

I'm basically an introverted personality when around strangers and take awhile to get to know people (more one on one).
I truly believe God works with people in different ways, and while the Great Commission by Jesus Christ is to go out into all the world, that doesn't specifically say, go into the streets & prostelytize to hardcore pedestrians.
We can witness in many ways as Christians in our communities.

I don't personally witness to secular humanists or pagans just because I consider them "lost" -- I witness to people when they show some sort of [genuine] interest to ask sincere questions.
I answer & reveal passages but I don't get forceful or too preachy.
(maybe that's the Realist in me? I dunno).

I think it's more important to pray that God work to open their minds & hearts than go randomly preaching to hardened/uninterested people.

But that's just me & I have nothing against others who don't share the same style! God has all kinds of personalities at His disposal; each of us can witness in different ways where God leads us.

Not everyone has a 'gift' of evangelism - many people aren't the type that go hit the streets & russtle up strangers to witness to - & quite honestly, when people do it to me when I'm out, it irritates me.

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I'm embarrassed to say that I've been irritated by fellow Christians evangelizing me, too. If I wanted to talk to confrontive strangers, I'd walk through Home Depot. (Home Depot management, are you reading this?)

Sokratikos said:

Oh wow, what a heap of a question. What would it take? I'd need a day off to think about that one. So many things.

It is actually a very complex one. In all honesty you folks might find it offensive even if I try hard for it not to be! Please be open minded while reading this, since you asked for "honestly".

The first thing is the complexity of the issue. First you need to understand where I come from: Even if I could be convinced about the existence of "a God", there's still a long way to go from there to the acceptance of a specific theology. Yes, that's me, complicated.

So, let's focus on the Christian God. I started to write several inconsistencies from the top of my head, but the more I wrote, the more I realized it would take a very long time, since something new popped up. So, I gave up to laziness and posted some links where others have worked real hard to do this.

Why?

In all honesty, you'd have to explain all these things away, and I think it would be very hard to do.

Here they are:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html

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I am sure every one here is tired of this PRATT, However, Because you have requested it, I decided to do a quick Google Search for you to help you on your way to the answers:

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/morgand03.html

http://www.krysstal.com/contradi.html

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/bible.htm

I am sure the other topics you have questions with, would equally be answered by these sites and then there is Carm, as well as a bunch of other apologetics sites. It's all been said before, nothing new ever truly comes up. A pity that.

I guess it's jaded to refer to these lists, nevertheless, it is the answer to the question. There is probably somewhere else to debate about this, and I'm probably not the one to do so, since I haven't come here for that and I'm not seeking to deconvert. I only wish to find enlightment on the best way to consider these things.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ok, What is it you wish to "Consider"?

You asked "On what terms would you convert a Free Thinker, after I explained that there is no such thing as a True "Free thinker", I was given a very cute little song and dance routine. But still it remains now, if one is 'Following what others thinks” as such with your lists, then there are no original thoughts as of yet to speak of.[/FONT]


If you have no desire to 'Deconvert” and it is beyond me, how you could view this as deconverting, because, you explained before that “Free Thinker” was not subject to a specific religion, or creed, but it really was little more then a state of mind (Sort to speak).


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Or are you asking how would anyone go about turning you into a mindless zombie?[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Well I doubt anyone here could help you with that, because no one here is a Mindless Zombie, Regardless of how intense or directed each of our faiths might be, we are still free thinking children of God who have come to establish a relationship with our lord and Savor.[/FONT]

Probably even closer to me (and this I'd be more interested in discussing) is the issue of the Truth (pardon the capital T) in the sense that:

1) Christianity is divided far beyond the dismissable. Bad case for demonstrating supernatural guidance "from up above". How would an outsider trust? If the Spirit couldn't help -say- Martin Luther, George Fox, St Thomas Aquinas or Charles T Russell (J.W.s) to get it straight? (Logic dictates that only one or none got it straight)

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Indicates that we Christians think freely for our selves, Free Minds, that have throw off the Shackles of the limitations of Humanity, will view God with New Eyes. If anything this is proof and testament that Gods followers are not Mindless, but Vibrant and Life Filled people who can each look at the same word and gain a new perspective on life. I have never seen such ability in any of the “Free Thinker” or Non-Christian Groups. Pity on that however as well. [/FONT]

2) All those that have died and been tortured by Christians in God's name, still no sign of guidance.[/quote]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]What? Your kidding right?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The groups that Sought Social Political Control and Power that used the teachings of Christianity to influence and subdue the masses had a great amount of Guidance. Maybe not by God, but they had guidance by the all consuming Greed for Power. However, it was the humble believing servants of God, that were duped into believing these acts were the will of God by these snake oil sales men, that suffered the worst. [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]That is why todays Christian need to be and are more Thought Adaptive and willing, ready and do question everything and everyone. [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Sadly, I see so little of that in other groups. [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I guess that is why I turned to God when I sought to truly free my mind and my self.[/FONT]

3) The unfairness of Christian doctrine. Only those that believe will be saved. (In the nost basic logic, those who have never heard, never believe, thus are not saved).[/quote]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Umm not true.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Even the most rural and removed person sees Gods creation (By product of living on the earth), and is this affected by God and Gods Good Grace. Exposure does not make one saved or not saved. To use yourself as an example, you have been exposed to the teaching, but in your heart you refuse. The opposite is also True. Nuff said on that.[/FONT]

4) Hell is also terribly unjust. Illimited punishment for limited deads? Perfect prize for imperfect deeds? For Paul, faith is enough -how many hundreds of Torquemadas will go to heaven? How many Abraham Lincolns or Andrew Carnegies will not go (see this for more info)? Unjust, and it contradicts any definition of God as in favor of justice or defined as love.

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Oh please, the “Hell seems awfully harsh, Blah, Blah, Blah.” routine. Does this ever Get old?
Abraham Lincoln was still a sinner, regardless of what ever heroics he did in life (Free the Slaves) he also started a war that killed thoushands (Civil War), he lied, and He did not Hold God First in His Heart.,


and side note: last I check, he was a lawyer, and isn't that like immediately Hell, by default?(Joke!)


And the List Goes on and on, one Good deed, or one act of “heroics” does not merit one Heaven. As much as people would like to think so.


If Abraham Lincoln were to have raped a Woman, would it make difference that he “Freed the Slaves” or “Other then Raping that Woman” he was a really swell Guy! So what.


Rape can be finished in 5 min flat (maybe Faster) and the punishment can be 50 to 100 years in Jail (In NYC). Where is the Time fairness in that?(I believe it's a fair punishment however)


Now here is a fun question for you.


Can you undo a Lie?

You know? I wish Christianity was true (at least the liberal, kind version of it) -really. Afterlife and bliss. Salvation for all, etc.
But it just doesn't have the least sense. My wishes have no power over reality. Childhood is over (for me) even though it was dear.

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Yah, it's all great, Heaven, Blah, Blah, Blah, Be with God, sounds Great. It sounds wonderful until you realize your supposed to live a life that is “Christ Like” here on Earth. No Sex till you get married, once married you can't have sex outside the marriage. Your not supposed to lie, Cheat, Steal, or indulge in anything too much (Gluttony is a sin). Your not supposed to drink to much (No getting drunk, and in some groups, no drinking at all!) no Gambling, Etc. I mean it's a long list of things your not supposed to do, much longer then just 10 things.


BTW: IN case no one told you this:


Life itself makes no sense. Why depend on Logic and reason, when your existence did not., and your continual existence does not depend on it either. People put way to much stock into this “It makes not sense”.
Truth is, Nothing really makes sense.


It's simple, if you don't want to accept it, Don't!


I, nor anyone else will even make a half hearted try to force you. Acceptance of Salvation must be of ones own choice.




Blessing and Peace be With you.


God Bless
Key.

Key has some valid points -below-

& one I wanted to pull out was the definition of "free thinker" (freethinking)...

It almost presupposes that only their REJECTION OF 'ORGANIZED' RELIGION is to 'freely think' for themselves.
As if rebellion to certain belief systems are "free"...

IN ACTUALITY, they aren't FREE thinking since they subscribe to a separate set of already conceived anti-theist worldviews.
Being atheist is being 'slave to that ideology' - it isn't Free, it's bound in atheistic dogmas & positions.

ALL HUMAN BEINGS ARE FREE THINKERS who either choose to submit or not to submit;
subscribe to or NOT subscribe to any value or belief system of their free choice.

So I take personal offense to any presumption that "free thinkers" are only the ones that think for themselves 'freely' and all else are 'enslaved' to premade dogmas; when EVERYONE falls into a category of belief systems (even if NOT to believe in a God).

& Since we aren't BORN Christians, we are 'Free thinkers' prior to subscribing to it, and we freely choose it as it makes the most sense to us!
We also claim that to BE saved is to have true Freedom (free from the penalty of the law of sin & death).

Lastly, I agree w/ Key: THERE IS NOTHING / NO NEW WORLDVIEW UNDER THE SUN.
Rebellion is as old as Adam & Eve in the garden of eden.
Everyone fits & conforms to a mold of some type; secularly or religiously.

brings this verse to mind:
2 Pet. 2:19 While they promise them freedom, they themselves are slaves of depravity, for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.