25 years in Faith Movement:The TRUTH

Enjoyed reading your posts. basically u know I'm in agreement with you and know what ya saying. (only thing i dont agree is that I dont believe a Christian can be eternally lost, but that's another topic altogether)

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I have addressed that issue to some extent in the post "Fellowship and Relationship". We are closer than you might think.

Revelation knowledge is interesting. I read a book called the Voice of God, which talks about this. I call it rhema word, or the stage when the word drops into your heart/spirit from your head.

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Yes... I have a lesson built up around Romans 10:17 which uses the rhema word concept. It is the living word spoken to us that brings faith. 

I like Weymouth:

(WNT)  And this proves that faith comes from a Message heard, and that the Message comes through its having been spoken by Christ.


And on "rhema"... 

Thayer Definition:
that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word


In order for the truth to become faith within us... it must be spoken from Spirit to spirit.

Thanks!

Hobie

Quaffer,

"Thanks for your hard work brother. I've copied everything so I can read it at leisure."

Please comment and expand on any ideas and share!

Hobie.

Louis,

Okay Holbert, we are proably on the same side, except for a few points here and there. I think God uses everyting to further his glory and drawing us to him (christians and nonchristians alike). thus this includes sickness.

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Thanks! I know we may disagree in many areas. But it is good to find those places that we do agree and fellowship around them(when we can).

I agree that God can take something like sickness and turn it around toward faith. But I have to point out one thing. The sickness(or whatever 'bad' thing that happens) is not what actually gets people to where they need to be. In the end, it is still faith in God and His word that accomplishes that task. And in the end, the person could have exercised the faith to start with, and the sickness may not have happened. The sickness is not needed any more than my being hit by a car as a child was needed to teach me to stay out of the road. Being sick may cause one to stop their wandering and go home, but no one said they had to be sick.... they can go home at any time.

I am not sure I am expaining this very well. I have the idea in my heart... it is just not coming out correctly. I will have to meditate on it for a while and see what comes up. Later...

Thanks for your comments Louis. I have been hoping that maybe Lilylamb and Mandy and others might come around and have some ideas also.

Blessings

Hobie.

A study of the story of the Compassionate Father

We have all studied the parable commonly called the Prodigal Son. For a long time, something bothered me about that title, and in fact the entire interpretation of the parable. One day the Lord told me that a better title of the parable is the parable of the Compassionate Father. The natural man wants to place the emphasis on the works of man and what we can do to save ourselves. Yet this parable is actually about the Compassion of the Father. 

Look at the stage set for the presentation of this parable:

Luke 15 
1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them. 
3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

He was teaching publicans and sinners. The religious folk of the day came and objected to this. The teaching that followed was a revelation of His love and actions toward these sinners who were far from God. He was illustrating the love of the Father toward those who sin. The theme and subject of the parables that followed was not "what the sinner should do to be saved", rather it was a revelation of the deep and profound love and compassion that God (and therefore Jesus) had for those who are out of fellowship. The parable is better called the parable of the Compassionate Father.

Luke 15 
11 And he said, A certain man had two sons: 
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. 
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

This is a picture of a son out of fellowship. The individual was a child of the Father, and not a lost sinner. He has pushed away from the table of his father and is living in the filth of the world. He went to "a far country", far out of his fathers sight. This is always the pattern. A man out of fellowship will seek to escape the eyes of the Father. There exists the inner shame. He does not want the loving Father to see what he is doing. This is the darkness. All places outside of the sight of the Father are shrouded in darkness. Then the inevitable happened. As with all who are out of fellowship with the father, that which they had of and from the Father runs out. Such is the case with children with God. They exist for a short while on the revelation and past fellowship. But soon they find themselves in total darkness. It is important to remember that none of this was by the design of the Father. None of it was His will or at His command. The Father did not send him away, nor was this the result of some judgment or punishment.

Luke 15 (cont) 
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. 
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.

When I read these words there is such sorrow in my spirit. This is the state of many brothers and sisters in the Lord. Here is the ultimate fate of Christians who attempt to walk in darkness away from the table of fellowship. They join with false religions (a citizen of a country that is "far off") and attempt to survive on false food. This food is often false doctrine (pigs are considered unclean and their food is the food that maintains their uncleanness). They may even become ministers in a false religion, feeding the false food, and gorging themselves on it. It is significant that Jesus inserted the phrase "and no man gave unto him...". There is such sorrow in that phase. It sinks like a weight into my heart. "Men" in context of the parable is most likely fellow Christians who have "put away that wicked one" from them. Not out of self righteousness or a sense of being indignant. Rather in a show of the sorrow and broken fellowship. In deep sorrow they observe the state of this man. They know to give unto Him would encourage him to continue on in his doings. So they stand far off and pray and mourn. 

Luke 15 (cont) 
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, 
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

The words of verse 17 are tremendously important. Jesus said that the man "came to himself". As if to say that in all his darkness he was not really being himself. This is the truth about all Christians who are out of fellowship and in darkness. They are not "being themselves". If they walked in the light of who and what they were, they would see the truth and begin to walk in that light. It is very significant that Jesus established that this man was not acting in accordance to who and what he was inside. What he was doing outwardly was not the real him. (The unregenerate cannot say this. When the unregenerate acts in this manner, he is doing exactly what his fallen spirit wants him to do.) So this is a defining passage as to what happens when a born again child of God sins and breaks fellowship. He is not "himself" during this period, and acts outside of his inner regenerate nature. Eventually he can "come to himself" and see the truth of his situation and how he is living beneath the Fathers provision of life and godliness. He repents and the results are told of by Jesus:

Luke 15(cont) 
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

This is the posture of the Father every moment we are out of fellowship. The Father searches the horizon in search of us. Seeking from the window sill. It is such a powerful image and revelation of the love and compassion of the Father. The Father seeks our return unto Him. While we are emerging from the darkness, He runs to us and meets us full of love and compassion. This is far from the common picture of God on a throne waiting to chastise and punish us at every whim. This is the revelation of God that is recounted by Jesus. Jesus is the exact image and related to us exactly what the Father was like. If your image of God does not match with this, then change your image. 

Luke 15 (cont)
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

The son puts his plan into effect. Still unaware of his own status and the compassion which His Father has for him. The father ignores his lack of faith and calls for three significant icons. A robe (the best robe), a ring, and a pair of shoes. The robe signifies restored protection and fellowship. The ring is vitally important as the ring has always signified authority and power in the family institution. The shoes signify a restored walk. The killing of the fatted calf is indicative of both the restored provision and the celebration which is due when fellowship is restored.

Luke 15 (cont) 
25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing. 
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. 
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him. 
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: 
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

Very interesting interaction between the father and this son. Of course Jesus intended it for the hearers present who were the Jews. He knew they thought that their many years of service and obedience was what was desired by the father. They existed in their own far away country and darkness. Driven from the table himself by anger and resentment. This son was in reality no better off than the son who left. The older son first speaks with a "servant" concerning the events. In his complaint he reveals his heart. He did not want to celebrate with the father, he wanted to party with friends! How this must have cut the father. One wonders who was further from the father, the son who left or the son who stayed? This son was outside the house, and would not even come in! The father had to come outside to get this one also. And this son was also ignorant of his fellowship rights. This son (like so many believers today) was waiting for the father to "give him" something that the father had determined was already his. The father had to tell him that "all I have is thine". God has already given us "all things that pertain to life and godliness." It is often missed that in vs 12, it states that the father divided to "them" all his living. The fatted calf already belonged to this son that remained! 

Luke 15 (cont) 
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. 
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

So this parable is a revelation of the heart of the Father and of our fellowship with Him. It is a revelation of two kinds of darkness that separate us from His love. One is the darkness of living beneath who and what we are and what He has provided for us. The other is in the darkness of a works type fellowship based on ones own efforts rather than the loving provisions of the Father.

The Doctrine of Baptism into Christ: 
Into Death-Into Life

Of all the doctrines of Christ, this may be one of the most misunderstood. And aside from faith for salvation and repentance it is the most important subject for the new Christian to learn. In this teaching is found the core intent of the purpose of God in salvation and creation itself. 

1 Corinthians 15:
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 

That we have been baptized into Christ is part of the overall plan of God to be "all in all". These words are difficult for the natural mind to receive. They are just words to the natural man. But the spirit man inside receives them and there is a burning. God wants to be in us, and being baptized into Christ is the process by which this goal is accomplished.

Because Adam died spiritually,  it is logical to say that he was "born again" as a child of the devil. His spirit became one with satan in nature and ability to do righteousness. He became of a member of the "body of satan" or the "kingdom of darkness". He was not satan in his identity, but he was a child of satan. This state of being is called "spiritual death" in the scriptures.

Looking at the passage in Genesis 2 we see the following:

Genesis 2 16 
¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 

The last phrase is very unusual in the Hebrew. It says:

"...for in the day that thou eatest thereof, in dying you will die."

There were two deaths that occurred on that day. One was the death of the spirit of Adam, and the other was the (eventual) death of his body. The spiritual death was passed onto all man. This is evidenced by the fact that all men have sinned. The physical death is just one result of the inner spiritual death.

The sin that Adam sinned was a "sin unto death"(1 John 5:16-17). That is it was a sin that resulted in spiritual death.There is "sin not unto death". This is all sin that does not result in spiritual death. A great deal of confusion is caused when people believe that they die spiritually each time they sin a "sin not unto death". Sin unto death is called sin "after the similitude of Adam" in Romans 5. 

Romans 5:14 
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 

In other words all men who were born from then on were born with the same spiritually dead nature even though they did not sin the same "sin unto death" (after the similitude of Adam). They put forth evil fruit which comes from all spiritually dead people. 99% of all sin sinned by Christians today is this sort of sin. It is sin "not unto death". If a Christian were to sin a "sin unto death" it would result in his spiritual death like Adam, because this is a sin "after the similitude of Adam". 

When a man is born again, this old nature is done away. It is abolished and completely eliminated out of existence. It is "passed away". Unlike the death of Adam in the garden, the spirit is not just changed from it's former state into a new state. In the new birth, the old spirit passes away, and the regenerate spirit that is placed into man is completely new. 

2 Corinthians 5:17 
Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 

In Isaiah 53, likely one of the greatest chapters in the Old Testament, there is a verse that parallels the two deaths of Genesis 2.

Isaiah 53:9 
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.

The word "death" is "deaths" in the Hebrew. Jesus died two deaths on the cross. He first became one with us, and was made sin for (and with) us, so that when He was raised from this state of death, we would be raised up together with Him. He then died physically as the lamb of God for the sins of the world. One death was for "sins", and the other was for "sinfulness". One dealt with the problem of our inner nature, the other dealt with the individual sins of every man throughout history. 

When we discuss the topic of baptism into Christ, it is first needful to understand that we were dead with Christ, and He was dead with us. We are baptized into His death with Him when we believe in the gospel. This passage in Romans is rich in spiritual truth that must enter into your logosystem if you are to totally overcome sin in your manner of life. 

Romans 6: 
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: 
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 

You were baptized into Jesus Christ. It is not symbolic or metaphorical. When Adam sinned, he was baptized into satan. That is he became one with satan in nature and identity. A child like unto his father. When we believe into Christ, we are one with Him in His death, burial, AND resurrection. This is the key. In order for us to be raised together with Him, He had to willingly become one with us in death. 

There was such rejoicing in hell on that day that Jesus descended into the pit, defeated and broken. Laden with the sin of mankind. One with man in death, being made sin for us. Jesus was one with fallen mankind on that day. But there was to be a victory that the devil could not conceive of. He did not know that because Jesus became one with us, we would be one with Him when God raised Him from the dead. When Jesus was raised up from the dead, we were raised with Him. When God quickened Jesus form the state of death and sin, we were quickened up together with Him. 

Few people can bare these verses. They exceed the ability of the mind to grasp. Yet we were one with Christ in death, and are raised up together with Him in new creation life. We cannot grasp or understand how these things could have transpired. But the scripture is clear. Jesus was made sin for us, died two deaths, and was one with us. When Jesus descended into hell, it was the whole body of Christ that descended with Him. The body was already destined to be there. When Jesus (who is the head of the body) descended, it appeared to the devil that the defeat was total. But when God saw that it was enough, He raised up Jesus the head, and glory to God: the body came with Him!

Ephesians 2: 
1 ¶ And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 
4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: 

We could not be quickened together with him from a state of sin unless we both shared that state. He was made sin, and was one with us so that when God raised Him from the dead, we would be raised up together with Him. 

Hello Ben,

I too believed as you do for years. It was only after I found what being lost was all about that I learned what being saved was all about. You asked the question:

WHAT, pray tell, is SALVATION, Hobart?

Which I will address in a separte post. But you correctly surmise the true question of the matter. Until we understand what it means to be damned(and the extant of that damnation), we will not really understand what it means to be saved, (and the extant of that salvation).

Just one issue:

And Luke 13:3 is only "PHYSICAL DEATH" but not SPIRITUAL? You believe that "an unrepentant sinner has a PLACE in HEAVEN?! "For I tell you, unless they REPENT, they will PERISH". "Perish" is "Apollumi", which absolutely means "to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell".

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The word "Apollumi" is used in many ways, the vast majority have nothing to do with an implied hell or even death:

perish, 25
destroy, 19
lose, 17
lost, 13
destroyed, 7
perished, 5
perisheth, 3
die, 1
loseth, 1
marred, 1


For instance, did this sheep go to hell, and then be searched for and found by this man?
Lk  15:4
(KJV)  What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it

Did this meat go to hell?
Jn 6:27
(KJV)  Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

This coin, I am sure, was not lost is hell, and then found there by this lady:
Lk 15:9
(KJV)  And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.

These wine bottles were marred, but not sent to hell:
(KJV)  And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

Are believers going to hell till the last day when Jesus will raise them up?
Jn 6:39
(KJV)  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And did Jesus go to hell to save the people?
Jn 18:14
(KJV)  Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people.

Hello Ben,
You stated the question:

"WHAT, pray tell, is SALVATION?"

This, I think, is stated in the context of a "once saved always saved" discussion. I want to reply to it in this forum because you are bringing it up in response to something posted in this forum. But in order to prevent this forum from turning into a OSAS discussion, I want to limit the reponse to this one. I would ask that if this goes any further that you post any futher comments in the forum that now exists for that topic. I will do the same.

Before we can say what salvation is, we need to know what it is we are being saved from.

The salvation of the spirit, what we refer to as eternal salvation, is in response to spiritual death that entered the spirit of man when Adam sinned. We are lost because of what Adam did. Everything that occurred from the moment Adam ate the fruit up until the moment Jesus died and was raised from the dead is irrelevant. If none of it had happened, it would have made no difference concerning the salvation of your spirit and the new birth. You were lost because of what Adam did, and you are saved because of what Jesus did. Individual sins have nothing to do with this...  they were just superficial events that proved what you were inside. No person has ever been lost because of individual sins, and no person has ever been saved because of individual acts of righteousness. We are not talking about individual acts, we are talking about the nature of the spirit. We are not talking about the fruit, we are talking about the tree.

Consisder what Paul said:

Rom 5:
10  For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life;
11  and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
12  Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--
13  for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.
15  But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many.
16  And not as through one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment came of one unto condemnation, but the free gift came of many trespasses unto justification.
17  For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, even Jesus Christ.
18  So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.
19  For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous.
20  And the law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace did abound more exceedingly:
21  that, as sin reigned in death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Let me paraphrase for clarity:
...the sin (nature) entered the world through one man and (spiritual) death through that sin, and that (spiritual) death passed to all men (which is eveident) because all men (commit) sin...
so (spiritual) death was in all men, even those who did not sin (a sin unto spiritual death) as Adam had... all are lost because of the sin of one, but the free gift by grace is much more(extensive)!... the gift of grace by Jesus Christ abounds to many!

And the key verse is:

19  For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous.

He is saying, IMO, that as powerful as the sin nature was in keeping fallen man lost, the life that we receive in Christ reigns more exceedingly powerful.
We are more saved than the lost are damned!
How damned are the lost? They are hopelessly lost... so lost that they cannot do anything to save themselves. We are more exceedingly saved than they are hopelessly lost. You cannot commit a sin of the flesh that will cause your spirit to die anymore than the lost can commit an act of righteousnes to effect the new birth in themselves. You have to commit the spiritual sin of rejecting and denying Christ to be lost.


I love Weymouth:

(WNT)  But God's free gift immeasurably outweighs the transgression. For if through the transgression of the one individual the mass of mankind have died, infinitely greater is the generosity with which God's grace, and the gift given in His grace which found expression in the one man Jesus Christ, have been bestowed on the mass of mankind.

The salvation of the spirit is a mass salvation just like the damnation was a mass damnation. Because God is not a bully like the devil was, this salvation is not forced on individuals. But all you have to do is to call upon the name of the lord to be saved. That is it.

Individual sins of the flesh are another matter all together. But our spirits are more saved in Christ than the spirits of the damned are lost in Adam.

Is it greivious when believers walk in the flesh? YES... so much so that it could eventually lead to their physical death (if they are lucky) or worse; it could lead to such a hardening of the heart that they will deny Christ in preference to their sin. It is the denial that damns them... not the sins.

But it is my position that the saved are more saved than the lost are lost.

Actually, God's will IS irresistible

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If you are answering in the context of the discussion you read this from, then I have a few observations which are very difficult to swallow.

• If the will of God is irresistible, then you are forced to come to the conclusion that everything that has happened, and everything that presently exists, and everything that will happen, are all occurring and existing as a direct result of the sovereign will of God.
• Not only does everything happen as a direct result of His will, but nothing can happen apart from it. There are no accidents, no decisions on our part that could be opposed to His will.  The devil and all evil men and all demons are just proxies of the Will of God. He is causing it all to happen like some macabre puppet play from mid evil days.
• If this were true, then we would all be in the perfect will of God at all times! There would be nothing else we could do! Sin does not exist because we are all helplessly acting in perfect harmony to His irresistible will.  We are all doing exactly and only what He wills. There is nothing else we could do.
• I am writing these words and believing these things in complete conformity to the will of God. So are you. We both are in the complete perfect will of God. If the will of God is irresistible, then it can be no other way. I cannot write anything else.... you cannot write anything other than what you are about to write. We are both helplessly holding to our positions. We cannot even change our minds at will. His will is forcing us to believe what we believe.
• Therefore; if the will of God is irresistible then free will does not exist.

Of course I do not accept any of this.

The reason I include this topic in this thread is because there are those who say that they are sick or dying or impoverished because God wants them that way and there is nothing they can do about it. They think they should not pray about it or believe against their situation because they might be acting against the will of God. I disagree with that and address it with the reasoning I presented.

Thanks again.
Hobie

 

Thanks Ben,

You mentioned:
But the "walking-in-the-flesh" is tantamount to "denying Jesus".

This is something I wanted to eventually cover, but now is a good a time as any to discuss:

 The Dual Nature Theory...
 

A friend writes:

"One question:
I've been trained that we still have a sinful nature trying to work in us, but we also have our new creation spirit gotten at salvation."

The concept is commonly referred to as the dual nature theory. In other words, we have two spirits in us: the old adamic spirit with its sinful nature that was present in us before we were saved, and the new creation spirit in that was created in us at the new birth. 

Consider the scriptural and practical difficulties created with this concept:

1. The single most powerful scripture against the dual/spirit, dual/nature theory is 2 Cor 5:17:
"Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

We know the whole man is made up of a spirit, a soul, and a body (2 Thess 5:17). In the above verse, we see that "old things are passed away". What was it that passed away? It was not your body: it is still there and wants to do all the things it always wanted to do. (We are also told to crucify the flesh.) It was not your mind that passed away, because you retained all the memories, skills, emotions that you had before. (We are told to renew our minds). It was your old adamic spirit with it's sinful nature that passed away. If it is "passed away", then it is gone. The verse goes on to say that "all things are become new". It does not say just part of that old sinful spirit passed away. ALL of it passed away, and ALL things are made new. The new spirit created in you is "in Christ", or the spirit of Christ. So in this one verse we have the declaration that the old spirit is "passed away", and that the only spirit present in the born again Christian is the new creation.

2. We see Paul's profession of faith concerning his own identity in Gala 2:20.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Here we see Paul identifying with the death of Christ at the crucifixion. But he goes on to say that he is alive, but that which is alive in him is not him (the old adamic spirit) but is the spirit of Christ in him. He says the faith he is having is actually the spirit of Christ in him having the faith. He (the old adamic spirit) no longer exists, it died in the new birth. There is only one spirit in there, it is the spirit of Christ.

3. The theory that the "fallen/satanic" spirit co-habitats with the "divine/Christ" spirit inside us makes for many theological and spiritual problems. 

Which one is "you"? Who are you? Jesus spoke of a "good tree" and "evil tree". This dual nature theory suggests that we either:

• have both the good and evil trees within us, or:
• we have one monstrous tree that somehow is both good and evil, and puts forth both good and evil fruit.

Jesus said we would be able to tell the prophet by his fruit. Yet the dual nature theory would seem to say that it is possible for a prophet to put forth both good and evil fruits, because he would have both trees/natures in him. The dual nature theory would seem to contradict and render useless this test Jesus provided for us. 

(4.) 1 John 3:9-10 is very problematic for the dual nature theorist.

1 John 3: 
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 

We have a clear dividing line between the child of God and the child of the devil. If your spirit leads you to sin, you are not born again. You are a child of the devil. (He is not talking about your flesh here, he is talking about your spirit.) The dual nature theorist believes that you have a sinful spiritual nature in you that leads you to sin. If this were true, he would be saying that we are both children of the devil and children of God at the same time! This passage is very clear, if you are born again, you cannot sin from your spirit. This passage is parallel to the "evil tree-good tree" parable of Jesus. 

Where does the "deal nature theory come from"?

The theory of the dual nature comes from a misunderstanding of Romans 7. Some people read this chapter as Paul describing his present Christian life experience. Yet there is a great deal of evidence in the passage that shows us it is a meditation about his pre-new birth man. Notice the past tense wording in these verses (emphasis mine):

Romans 7:5 ...when we WERE in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, WROUGHT in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [WAS] dead. 

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin REVIVED, and I died. 

Romans 7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I FOUND [to be] unto death. 

Romans 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, DECEIVED me, and by it SLEW [me]. 

The key verse is found here:

Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 

Are these the words of a man with the new creation in him, or are they the words of a fallen man wanting to do the good revealed by the law, but not able to because of his sinful nature? "Word Pictures of the New Testament" gives some good insight:

Word Pictures NT - Roma 7:15
... There is a great deal of controversy as to whether Paul is describing his struggle with sin before conversion or after it. The words "sold under sin" in verse 14 seem to turn the scale for the pre-conversion period. "It is the unregenerate man's experience, surviving at least in memory into regenerate days, and read with regenerate eyes" (Denney).

The Peoples New Testament draws a similar conclusion about this passage:

Peoples NT - Roma 7:5 
For when we were in the flesh.* When we were in an unconverted condition, under the influence of our carnal nature. The insufficiency of law to deliver us from its power is now shown...

E. W. Kenyon devotes an entire chapter to Romans 7 in his book "New Creation Realities", which I recommend to all.

Where does sin in the Christian come from?

Sin is of the flesh. If we walk in the spirit, we will not sin. If we walk in the flesh, or according to the lusts of the flesh, we sin (Gal 6). Look at 1 John 2:16

For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

This is the source of sin in us. Notice the word "all". There is nothing here about any dual nature. It is the flesh.

The great passage in Galatians spells out where sinful tendencies come from.

Galatians 5 
16 This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. 

You can have confidence in your spirit, because it is no longer you that lives, but it is Christ living in you. It is Christ speaking in you. It is Christ loving and having faith in you. And in all areas of life, in order to be "free" and have liberty, you must be able to walk confident that the new man within you is of God. It is no longer I that live, it is Christ living, loving, having faith, and having compassion in me. When this truth is added to your logosystem, you will begin to experience great freedom in your walk, manner, and conversation. Free from the lack of confidence that held you back, you can go forth knowing who and what is in you. 

 

prior "...You have to commit the spiritual sin of rejecting and denying Christ to be lost...."
 
responseExactly. And this principle is applicable in this thread, because it cuts to the validity of "the faith movement"...



I may be wrong.... but the vast majority of the WOF people that I have known do not hold with OSAS.

Ben and others,

Before you think I am easy on sin, please be aware that I also have produced and offered a course entitled "How To NEVER sin again".

One of the faults found with the faith movement by some is that they insist that WOF does not deal with sin and dwells to much on healing, prosperity, and the gifts. Yet 90% of what I present in my courses and on my website deals with the topic of being "In Christ" and how to live righteously and overcoming sin and the world. If you have read E.W. Kenyon (who is the true father of the Faith Movement, not Hagin) you will know that the vast majority of his writings deal with the new man, fellowshiping the Father, righteousness, and love. You may have noticed that so far in this thread, I have not posted anything about healing or prosperity. Most of my teaching and material centers around Christ and how we can overcome the world in Him by faith.

Hobie.

 

The WILL of God is irresistable. In effect, YES EVERYTHING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED is RESULTANT of God's SEVEREIGN WILL. But what we cannot PRESUME, is that God is the CAUSE of what has happened. It is entirely within the scope of His will, to allow LATTITUDE. Thus, His will allows PERMISIVENESS.

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IOWs it is the will of God that not everything that happens is the result of His will... Kind of a go-around way of saying the same thing without saying it.

But I do not think you can storm into the room of someone who is DYING and exclaim: "YOU HAVEN'T ENOUGH FAITH"...

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Nor do I.

So "all new things have come", but "the old passes away". The old is gone FOREVER? That's not what it says.

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12 versions. Choose your flavor:

2Co 5:17
(ASV)  Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new.

(Darby)  So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new:

(DRB)  If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away. Behold all things are made new.

(GW)  Whoever is a believer in Christ is a new creation. The old way of living has disappeared. A new way of living has come into existence.

(ISV)  Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. Old things have disappeared, and-look!-all things have become new!

(KJV)  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

(LITV)  So that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new!

(MKJV)  So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

(NASB)  Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

(Webster)  Therefore, if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

(WNT)  So that if any one is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old state of things has passed away; a new state of things has come into existence.

(YLT)  so that if any one is in Christ-- he is a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.

From Robertsons Word Pictures from the NT concerning the permenance of the change:

Behold, they are become new (idou, gegone kaina). Perfect active indicative of ginomai, have become new (fresh, kaina) to stay so.

Exactly as in Heb6:4-6...

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I agree, but look at the maturity one would have to be at in order to fall:

Heb 6:

3  And advance we will, if God permits us to do so.
4  For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once for all been enlightened, and have tasted the sweetness of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5  and have realized how good the word of God is and how mighty are the powers of the coming Age, and then fell away--
6  it is impossible, I say, to keep bringing them back to a new repentance, for, to their own undoing, they are repeatedly crucifying the Son of God afresh and exposing Him to open shame.

Look at the level of maturity of the people in "this case":

•  they have been enlightened,
•  they have tasted of the heavenly gift,
• they have been made partaker of the Holy Spirit,
• and experienced the good word of God,
• and even the powers of the world to come...

If someone like this fell away then they are in trouble. This is not your typical Christian.  I have known thousands of Christians in my life. Few measure up to what is described here.

 

Tell me---did John contradict himself? If the old nature is DEAD-AND-GONE, why then does John write in 1:1:8-9, "If we say that we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. But if we CONFESS our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."? 

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Wonderful book 1st John!. My favorite of all the epistles (including those of Paul). I will get to 1st John soon. There is to much to cover in one post. Suffice it to say(in response to your question): No, John did not contradict himself because the verses you quoted from chapter 1 are referring to believers who were in darkness and claiming not to have sinned. John was simply telling them that if they are in darkness and out of fellowship, there was only one way to get that way... by sin.
Weymouth (the best translation IMO) puts verse 6 this way:"If, while we are living in darkness, we profess to have fellowship with Him, we speak falsely and are not adhering to the truth."

These verses do not apply to all Christians nor do they describe the normal Christian life. They are only written to those who are in darkness and claim it was not sin that got them there.
 

I do believe God heals people, but I think their focus should be on <I>HIM</I>. This is why I expressed concern over a "faith-movement"---do we have faith in Christ? Or is it faith in FAITH?

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Perhaps some do Ben... but I am&nbsp;not here. But in my heart and mind, the most important issues are righteousness in Christ, how to overcome the world(by faith), and praise and worship of God.