Hebrews and the preterist view

Brian45,

If we look hard enough we can find people and statistics to back up just about any position on any issue. This is how most people approach the quest for truth. I am a political conservative. So, what did I do on the issue of global warming? I went out and found statistics and expert opinions that agreed with the conservative view on the matter. Did I seek out the raw data and spend hours trying to figure out what is really happening on the global warming issue? I must admit I did not. I think you probably did not either.

Most people approach eschatology in the same manner. We begin with our traditions and we look only for evidence to confirm our beliefs and to disprove other beliefs. Rarely do we find individuals who give all the major eschatological viewpoints equal footing and then explore each one with an honest desire for the truth.

I want to encourage all of us to be the exceptions. If you are really interested in eschatology, then study eschatology not just one narrow view of the end times. Read the best futurist, historist, idealist, and preterist works you can find. If you keep the view that you started with, then all will respect you. However, be warned. Most people who take this journey do not hold on to all of their traditions. So, if you love your tradition more than truth, then stay in your own little corner of the eschatological world, but don't expect those who love truth to respect you.

Ozark

Originally posted by parousia70


Planet earth, United States of America, State of Oregon, City of Eugene (Granola, pachouli, enviro-radical capital of the world) I was a "Dirt First" tree hugging, Grateful Dead listening, Spotted Owl whale saver from way  back.

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Oh dear..... 

Planet earth will endure.

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Only if Jesus returns to save it. 

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um





[Planet Earth will endure]

Only if Jesus returns to save it.  [/B]

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If Jesus returns?

A bit skeptical about your "futurism" are ya?

 

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um

[I was a "Dirt First" tree hugging, Grateful Dead listening, Spotted Owl whale saver from way  back.]

Oh dear.....  


[/B]

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Auntie, would you do me the honor of elaborating?

For instance, did you mean:

"Oh Dear" as in "His admitted background is a clear reason not to trust preterism"

Or

"Oh dear" as in "Praise God He turned from those things to the truth Of Jesus Christ"

???

Just curious

Why is it that preterists are so touchy??  And quick to come to erroneous conclusions??

I am a bit of an environmentalist myself, excluding the word "activist", although I am not a Grateful Dead fan.

My desire is not to save the beach mouse, but the beach.

Although I love wood-peckers, my desire is to save the natural forrest.

And if we don't save the oceans from being dumped with the waste of modern man, then the whale is the least of our problems.

You know, over the fathers day weekend, we took a trip down the Florida coastline, in the northern panhandle.  We found long stretches of landscape virtually untouched by modern man.  But, a lot of this land had "for sale" signs on it.  I wish some of you "tree huggers" would come to the state of Florida and attempt to save what little remains of God's creation.

Fair enough Aunti, except for the "preterists are touchy" part, I am in total agreement with your brand of "Environmentalism"  We are to be good stewards afterall.

I was just mentioning that I used to be more radical in my thinking on that issue before I came to Know Jesus.

hmmm......the quote button doesn't seem to be working.

 parousia70,

I just had this mental image of you way up in the top of a tree, starving yourself while listening to Grateful Dead tunes on a cordless CD player.  Just a little humor.

hmmm.....you must have edited your post as I was clicking the quote button.

Well parousia, there's nothing wrong with being dedicated to what you believe in.  As a matter of fact, it is admirable.  I'm sure Jesus was acused of being radical.  You give yourself to what you hold dear, and that is a good thing.

Originally posted by Ozarkpreterist
Most people approach eschatology in the same manner. We begin with our traditions and we look only for evidence to confirm our beliefs and to disprove other beliefs. Rarely do we find individuals who give all the major eschatological viewpoints equal footing and then explore each one with an honest desire for the truth.  I want to encourage all of us to be the exceptions. If you are really interested in eschatology, then study eschatology not just one narrow view of the end times. Read the best futurist, historist, idealist, and preterist works you can find. If you keep the view that you started with, then all will respect you. However, be warned. Most people who take this journey do not hold on to all of their traditions. So, if you love your tradition more than truth, then stay in your own little corner of the eschatological world, but don't expect those who love truth to respect you.

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This is EXACTLY what I did.  I bought parallel commentaries on Revelation, the Millennium, the Rapture ... I bought books on all sides of the issue ... and after thoroughly referencing the Scriptures I wound up on a side I never in a million years would have expected myself to be on.  So much for tradition ...

Dear all and parousia

It was said.
Well, it looks like we have a conflict that needs to be resolved, for elsewhere in the Bible, the word of God and therefore the truth, it is written:

Psalms 78:69
And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever."

So, you see the quandry, you have a scripture that says the earth will end, I have one that says it will last forever.

They can't both be right...hmmmm what to do...

Well, lets examine your verse. It is dealing with a "heaven & earth" as it relates to "Hebrews" correct?
Could there be a "Heaven and Earth" exclusive to Hebrews that God was going to destroy?

Lets see shall we?

This language sounds very similar to
Isiah 51:16
In describing what took place after God parted the sea and brought th Hebrew people out of Egypt;
51:16
And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, 'You are My people.'

Aggi, Notice how God describes the deliverance of the Hebrews out of Egypt, and the Giving of the Law as the planting of heavens and earth

The creation of Heavens and Earth in Isaiah 51:16 can not be referring to physical creation, for that had already ocourred long before God brought Israel out of Egypt.

God brought the Jews into the wilderness, formed them into a covenant nation, Firmly establishing them as His people.

God called that process the "Planting of Heaven and earth"

This is the very same planting of Heaven and earth the Writer of Hebrews is referring to when referancing it's destruction. The destruction of the "Heavens and earth" of old covenant Judiasm that God created after He parted the sea.

Well it seems to me that your premise is slightly flawed. I’m not necessarily denying your conclusion, but I think Is.:51:16 and your explanation of it falls short of establishing your point.

What Isaiah could be saying there in verse 51 doesn’t seem to mean AFTER the exodus of the Jews. The mention of the divided seas in verse 15 is a tool of the prophets to remind the Jews who they are dealing with. This God [as opposed to other silent non-gods] has actually done something mighty for His people. God, in my opinion, is simply explaining His purpose. This verse could be saying that God has foreknown His own, sealed them from all eternity [by putting His words in their mouth and covering them] before He created the world. His purpose in creation to establish His people.

Your explanation of the verse assumes more than mine does. You assume that Isaiah is talking about the destruction of a covenant world between God and the Hebrews. You make that assumption based not on evidence in the verse or in the immediate context, but it would seem based on previous held views.

That doesn’t negate your views of course, but this verse doesn’t establish them either.

Then it was said:
quote:
Originally posted by parousia70
Based on the fact that the scriptures teach again and again and again that the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21)


Some of these verses don't seem to have anything to do with what you're talking about. I suspect you may have some typos here. But the OT ones I followed that do apply all use the same Hebrew word.

As to your premise…
Ps 104:5 this verse does not establish your premise, nor negate it. Is it possible the outer world will be destroyed but the earth as a planet survives?

Ps145: 13 this verse may have nothing to do with the earth. Remember Jesus said ‘My kingdom is not of this world’. Kingdom in this sense may mean the subjects of the kingdom, not necessarily a physical place.

Eccl. 1:4 the forever is this verse is general. It is not writing doctrine but simply speaking of the thousands of years the earth rotates. Again, the earth’s surface may be destroyed without the planet exploding.

Dan 4:3, 34 see note on Ps 145:13

Dan 7:14, 18, 27 same

Luke 1:33 same

Eph 3:21 not related to earth

It seems to be that instead of some spiritualized solution to the ‘dilemma’ we maybe should recognize that the planet may survive the destruction by fire.

Originally posted by Ozarkpreterist
Brian45,

If we look hard enough we can find people and statistics to back up just about any position on any issue. This is how most people approach the quest for truth. I am a political conservative. So, what did I do on the issue of global warming? I went out and found statistics and expert opinions that agreed with the conservative view on the matter. Did I seek out the raw data and spend hours trying to figure out what is really happening on the global warming issue? I must admit I did not. I think you probably did not either.

Most people approach eschatology in the same manner. We begin with our traditions and we look only for evidence to confirm our beliefs and to disprove other beliefs. Rarely do we find individuals who give all the major eschatological viewpoints equal footing and then explore each one with an honest desire for the truth.

I want to encourage all of us to be the exceptions. If you are really interested in eschatology, then study eschatology not just one narrow view of the end times. Read the best futurist, historist, idealist, and preterist works you can find. If you keep the view that you started with, then all will respect you. However, be warned. Most people who take this journey do not hold on to all of their traditions. So, if you love your tradition more than truth, then stay in your own little corner of the eschatological world, but don't expect those who love truth to respect you.

Ozark

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I never asked for respect from you ,  and as for those who love truth   ,   the truth according to who  ? ,   YOU  ?  . 

 

If I new you were Gods right hand man in understanding biblical  truths ,  I would have sought you out earlier  .

Originally posted by mjwhite


It seems to be that instead of some spiritualized solution to the ‘dilemma’ we maybe should recognize that the planet may survive the destruction by fire.

Click to expand...

 


<DT>Genesis 8:21a



<DD>And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake


<DD>
God will Never again curse the ground for the sake of man?

When God says Never again, does He mean Never again, or does He mean never again, until......??

&nbsp;</DD>

Originally posted by Brian45


&nbsp;

I never asked for respect from you ,&nbsp; and as for those who love truth&nbsp;&nbsp; ,&nbsp;&nbsp; the truth according to who&nbsp; ? ,&nbsp;&nbsp; YOU&nbsp; ?&nbsp; .&nbsp;

&nbsp;

If I new you were Gods right hand man in understanding biblical&nbsp; truths ,&nbsp; I would have sought you out earlier&nbsp; .

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&nbsp;

Brian45,

I was not speaking to you personally in my post. I was speaking generally. Truth must be sought like fine gold, and we will ultimately find that it is a Person-- the Person of Jesus Christ. I did not mean to imply that I know all there is to know about Him. I am sorry you read my words that way. There is only one person that cannot gain more truth, and that is the one who already thinks he has it all. I pray that I never become that man.

Where has your search for truth lead you personally? What do you believe about the The Lord Jesus Christ? The end times? I would be interested in what you have to say. I have never found another believer&nbsp;whom I could not learn from.

Ozark

Originally posted by Mike Beidler


This is EXACTLY what I did.&nbsp; I bought parallel commentaries on Revelation, the Millennium, the Rapture ... I bought books on all sides of the issue ... and after thoroughly referencing the Scriptures I wound up on a side I never in a million years would have expected myself to be on.&nbsp; So much for tradition ...

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&nbsp;

Hi Mike,

That is&nbsp;what I did too. I studied them all. That is why I am a preterist. I know what you mean. I never thought I would be one in a million years either.

Ozark

Originally posted by Ozarkpreterist


&nbsp;

Brian45,

I was not speaking to you personally in my post. I was speaking generally. Truth must be sought like fine gold, and we will ultimately find that it is a Person-- the Person of Jesus Christ. I did not mean to imply that I know all there is to know about Him. I am sorry you read my words that way. There is only one person that cannot gain more truth, and that is the one who already thinks he has it all. I pray that I never become that man.

Where has your search for truth lead you personally? What do you believe about the The Lord Jesus Christ? The end times? I would be interested in what you have to say. I have never found another believer&nbsp;whom I could not learn from.

Ozark

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&nbsp;

Hi Ozark .&nbsp;&nbsp; You already know my view&nbsp; (&nbsp; the end is comming&nbsp; )&nbsp; .

I began the debate by showing sientific evedence that the earth is on a downward spiral&nbsp; ,&nbsp; and neither you nor parousia gave any solid substantual evidence to prove otherwise&nbsp; .&nbsp; then you both began to use mumbo jumbo to validate your point ..&nbsp;&nbsp;

It was then that I realised that there was no way you would ever agree with me or the scientists about the destrution of the earths ecosystem and where its heading .

If you were to agree that the world is slowly ending&nbsp; ,&nbsp; you would have to dump preterism&nbsp; ,&nbsp; and thats why you guys would rather stick your head under the pillow and pretend you don't see&nbsp; or use mumbo jumbo to validate your point .

I don't think preterism hinges on the fact that the world will not end...but according to scientists has been faulty for the ages...I am a scientist myself so I'm not knocking them to bad, but we have and will be wrong about many things...this doesn't at the moment appear to be one of those instances, but it very well could turn out to be...it ain't ending any time soon, so give it some time, before you put all your faith in what they're saying right now...

Originally posted by Brian45
&nbsp;

I began the debate by showing sientific evedence that the earth is on a downward spiral&nbsp; ,&nbsp; and neither you nor parousia gave any solid substantual evidence to prove otherwise&nbsp; .&nbsp; then you both began to use mumbo jumbo to validate your point ..&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

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&nbsp;

Hehehe.... mumbo jumbo......Thats funny.

The fact remains that science has failed to "prove", as you put it, that climate change, ozone depletion, population explosion, etc, will destroy the "EARTH".

From s strictly scientific perspective, the earth has been through cataclysm after cataclysm, climate change after climate change, pole shift after pole shift, species extinction after species extinction, and through it all guess what?

Earth still here!

Sure,&nbsp;modern civilization&nbsp;may be in for a rude awakening, but the track record is clear, Planet earth will endure.

&nbsp;

I was wondering where all the preterists have gone as i haven't been on here for a while. I thought ya'll had been sent to general apologetics. It's great at least they're letting you post here although i think to not have you in the Christians only forums is offensive at the least. Reading through a few of these threads i didn't see GW's name, is he still posting ?

Yeah, GW is still around...just keep an eye out...

GW's been busy, but he does check in on and off.

He's working on something special! we'll all be invited once He's ready!

&nbsp;

Stay tuned..............

Originally posted by Brian45


&nbsp;

Hi Ozark .&nbsp;&nbsp; You already know my view&nbsp; (&nbsp; the end is comming&nbsp; )&nbsp; .

I began the debate by showing sientific evedence that the earth is on a downward spiral&nbsp; ,&nbsp; and neither you nor parousia gave any solid substantual evidence to prove otherwise&nbsp; .&nbsp; then you both began to use mumbo jumbo to validate your point ..&nbsp;&nbsp;

It was then that I realised that there was no way you would ever agree with me or the scientists about the destrution of the earths ecosystem and where its heading .

If you were to agree that the world is slowly ending&nbsp; ,&nbsp; you would have to dump preterism&nbsp; ,&nbsp; and thats why you guys would rather stick your head under the pillow and pretend you don't see&nbsp; or use mumbo jumbo to validate your point .

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I would haft to disagree.&nbsp; The futurist view is the only view which validates it's system of believe on the end of the world.&nbsp; The Preterist view validates it's system of believe on the&nbsp;end covenants.&nbsp;&nbsp; Like compleat salvation and the presence of God.

And I must&nbsp;add here, as a minister and teacher of God, I am always, always, amazes when&nbsp;I see a&nbsp;Christian (a child of God) express the desire to believe scientistsi&nbsp;and their ideas,&nbsp;over the absolute authority, of God's Word which is clearly see in scripture.

Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation you shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Now the New Testament Ephesians 3:21 unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus (throughout all ages, world without end Amen). JKV&nbsp;&nbsp; One day those who place the words and ideas of men over the words of God will haft&nbsp;to answer to&nbsp;Him.&nbsp; And that&nbsp;you can&nbsp;take to the bank.&nbsp;&nbsp;