"This is a hard teaching" Jn 6:60

They could not accpet that Jesus is the way the truth and the life and they could not give up their sinful lives and put all theri faith into Jesus. They could not understand how Jesus could possibly save them and they themselves did not want to give up teir wicked lifestyles. Jesus taught that you had to give yourself 100% to God and that meant to leave everything that grieves God behind, many just relized how hard it is and left.

Agape_ said:

They could not accpet that Jesus is the way the truth and the life and they could not give up their sinful lives and put all theri faith into Jesus. They could not understand how Jesus could possibly save them and they themselves did not want to give up teir wicked lifestyles. Jesus taught that you had to give yourself 100% to God and that meant to leave everything that grieves God behind, many just relized how hard it is and left.

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Nope, sorry.

John 6:48-66

48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." 66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Looks a whole lot like the real presence in Communion to me...hmmm

Pretty simple really. A lot of Jesus' followers were zealots wanting help from Jesus to expell the Romans and become king of Israel. It was one of the Jewish expectations for the messiah. It is the same thing which caused the leaders in Jerusalem (colaborators according to the zealots) to seek Jesus' death.

Jesus' followers became really excited about Jesus' miracle with the loaves and fishes thinking that this was just the kind of miracle appropriate for an earthly king and saw great potential in it for raising up popular support and an army with which to fight the Romans. But Jesus was clearly unhappy with this reaction. In John 6:15 "Therefore when Jesus perceived that they were about to come and take Him by force to make Him king, He departed again to a mountain by Himself alone." Later in John 6:26 Jesus says, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled." Jesus is clearly saying that He rejects the role of an earthly king to provide for the needs of their flesh. So He says, "Do not labor for the food which perishes but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you because God the Father has set His seal on Him." But their reaction to this attempt to turn their attention to His spiritual purpose was one of disbelief. They demanded another sign from Him. And Jesus responded by talking about the bread from heaven which was Himself. And that is when they started getting upset and eventually left Him.

Clearly they believed in Jesus enough to support Him in a bid for the kingship of Israel but they had no interest in Him as an answer to their sins and as a source of everlasting life in some future existence. They wanted and earthly leader not a spiritual leader.

In my opinion, some left because the misunderstood what He said. They thought He meant they were to literally chow down on His flesh and drink His literal blood. Jesus explained Himself when He said His words were spirit (to be taken spiritually, not literally and physically) and that flesh profitted nothing as far as eating it is concerned because that was the subject He was talking about it. It doesn't mean that Jesus flesh profitted nothing when He gave it on the cross, that's a whole different subject. In my opinion.

ToxicReboMan said:

Many of the disciples of Jesus deserted him after one of his teachings. Why did they desert him? What is it that they could not accept or understand?

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Good Day, ToxicReboMan

The reason they left:

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

It was after verse 65 they left not verse 59, even know it was a hard saying. Their leaving follows the words spoken in verse 65, that is the second time Jesus said that.

You may whish to read Augustine on this passage he does a great job in seperating out the text and explaining it.

Peace to u,

Bill

Lynn73 said:

In my opinion, some left because the misunderstood what He said. They thought He meant they were to literally chow down on His flesh and drink His literal blood. Jesus explained Himself when He said His words were spirit (to be taken spiritually, not literally and physically) and that flesh profitted nothing as far as eating it is concerned because that was the subject He was talking about it. It doesn't mean that Jesus flesh profitted nothing when He gave it on the cross, that's a whole different subject. In my opinion.

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I agree Lynn73, eating flesh and drinking blood were against Torah. The Jews were shocked and digusted that a Jew could say such a thing. They didn't understand His words.

ToxicReboMan said:

Many of the disciples of Jesus deserted him after one of his teachings. Why did they desert him? What is it that they could not accept or understand?

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They basically thought that He was off His rocker so to speak.

If someone told you that you had to eat his flesh and drink his blood, what would you think?

The problem however, is that they took Jesus' words literally, thus failing to realize that He was speaking metaphorically. Had they stuck around and asked Him what He meant instead of giving up on Him so easily, they probably never would have left Him.

And isn't that the problem with a lot of people today? They take the words of Christ, and even the Bible as a whole for that matter, literally all of the time, thus failing to discern the difference between metaphorical rhetoric and a message that is meant to be taken literally word for word. Hence, they make the words of Jesus say something that He never said, thus creating much confusion.

In fact, people even did this with the writings of Paul. And that is why Peter said, "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2Pt. 3:16

So what is the solution? We need to educate ourselves on how to properly interpret the Bible, and lay our presuppositions aside long enough to really hear what the Spirit is saying.

Edit: I just noticed the comment of BBAS, which in my opinion makes a lot of sense. I would just add that after they heard Jesus tell them that they had to eat His flesh and drink His blood they were already thinking that He was a little strange for saying such a thing.

But when He proceeded to tell them that they couldn't get to the Father except through Him, that was the turning point for them. They then left Him because they thought He was crazy. Perhaps they even thought He was blaspheming God by saying these things.

ToxicReboMan said:

Many of the disciples of Jesus deserted him after one of his teachings. Why did they desert him? What is it that they could not accept or understand?

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Jesus:
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink

disciples:
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

When Jesus was speaking about the true nutriment, they were thinking he was speaking in parabolas and metaphors.
But He was not speaking with metaphoras!!
He said real food, real blood. They could no more follow him, the teaching was too hard (too illogical) to accept.

Also the twelves did not unsterstand Jesus. That why He asked them the same question.
But they stayed: not because they had understood, but for love for Jesus.

There are many things in our live we dont understand, as death of relatives, diseases, wars.
We have to stay always with Him, even when we dont understand why o how.

John 6:48 I am the bread of life.
6:51 I am the living bread which came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever; And the bread which I will give is my flesh, given for the life of the world.
52 The Jews then contended with one another saying, How can this man give us His flesh to eat?
53 Jesus therefore said to them, Turly, truly, I say to you, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you do not have life within yourselves.
54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up in the last day.
55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me and I in him.
57 As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me.

To eat His flesh is to receive by faith all that the Lord Jesus Christ did in giving His body for us. To drink His blood is to receive by faith all that was accomplished when He shed His blood for us. To eat food is to take it in to ourselves so that it can be organically assimilated into us. To eat the Lord Jesus is to receive Him into us so that He can be assimilated into our regenerated new man in the way of life. To eat His flesh and to drink His blood is to receive Him and His redemption as our life supply by believing in what He did for us on the cross.
It is difficult for people to understand this concept. That is why it is a hard word.
There are other verses about eating the word. Jeremiah 15:16 says Thy words were found and I did eat them and Thy words became to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart ...
This verse does not mean that Jeremiah found the words of the scripture written down on a piece of paper and he chewed up the paper and ate it. When he says he "ate" the words, he means that he took the words of God into himself and they became his joy.

a_ntv said:

Jesus:
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink

disciples:
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

When Jesus was speaking about the true nutriment, they were thinking he was speaking in parabolas and metaphors.
But He was not speaking with metaphoras!!
He said real food, real blood. They could no more follow him, the teaching was too hard (too illogical) to accept.

Also the twelves did not unsterstand Jesus. That why He asked them the same question.
But they stayed: not because they had understood, but for love for Jesus.

There are many things in our live we dont understand, as death of relatives, diseases, wars.
We have to stay always with Him, even when we dont understand why o how.

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Good Day, A_ntv

Do you think it is poper to exclude verses 61-65, when tring to understand the statements of verse 66 ?

Peace to u,

Bill

MY view...


It's impossible to know, with certainly, exactly WHAT Jesus said (if any one thing in particular) that caused some to leave.


My own personal opinion is what BBAS 64 noted above.


My $0.005...


- Josiah


.

BBAS 64 said:

Do you think it is poper to exclude verses 61-65, when tring to understand the statements of verse 66 ?

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The problem of Jews started at verses 41 and 52

41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven."
52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

Ok they could accept these words if spoken metaphorically.
But Jesus was clear. No metaphoras here

On verse 60 the disciples said "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" .
It is like they asked Jesus to say he was joking, or speaking by metaphoras

Be clear that the problem for them was:
- if you can eat the body of Jesus it means that Jesus is not only a man

Jesus did not answered in verses 61-63 as they hoped.
He went on not speaking metaphorically.

So most left, thinking "he is mad, no man can give his body to other to eat"

Also the twelves did not unsterstand Jesus. That why He asked them the same question.
But they stayed: not because they had understood, but for love for Jesus.

So from these verses we can define:
- Jesus is not only a man (but He is God)
- we have to eat his body
These two facts are striclty tied and repeated many times in the NT (1Cor 11,26 etc).
If we belive to one fact, have to belive to the other. If we deny one fact, we deny also the other.

Obvoiusly for us these facts are hard to understand, but we have to do as Peter, who did not understand, but he trusted

a_ntv said:

The problem of Jews started at verses 41 and 52

41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven."
52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

Ok they could accept these words if spoken metaphorically.
But Jesus was clear. No metaphoras here

On verse 60 the disciples said "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" .
It is like they asked Jesus to say he was joking, or speaking by metaphoras

Be clear that the problem for them was:
- if you can eat the body of Jesus it means that Jesus is not only a man

Jesus did not answered in verses 61-63 as they hoped.
He went on not speaking metaphorically. (verses 64-65 looks like to be added later)

So most left, thinking "he is mad, no man can give his body to other to eat"

Also the twelves did not unsterstand Jesus. That why He asked them the same question.
But they stayed: not because they had understood, but for love for Jesus.

So from these verses we can define:
- Jesus is not only a man (but He is God)
- we have to eat his body
These two facts are striclty tied and repeated many times in the NT (1Cor 11,26 etc).
If we belive to one fact, have to belive to the other. If we deny one fact, we deny also the other.

Obvoiusly for us these facts are hard to understand, but we have to do as Peter, who did not understand, but he trusted

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Good Day, A_ntv

Added Later , would you happen to have manuscript documentation for such an addition?

I am some what familar with the texaul issues and this is a new one on me, I would like to see the documentation by manuscript generations where and when this was added.

Peace to u,

Bill

It so amuses me that many of the same people who insist on literal Biblical interpretation will turn around and say Christ meant anything except what He actually said:

53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

Maybe it's because it points out the flaw in the lack of sacrements in their theology? Maybe it's because it points towards the apostolic Churches? Hmmm...

In the immortal words of Bugs Bunny, "Hmmmm....Could be."

BBAS 64 said:

Added Later , would you happen to have manuscript documentation for such an addition?

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Sorry, I've read it but I dont remeber where. So I'will cancel such statement.

Anyway such two verses are not direct speak of Jesus, so are not tied with the matter "why they leaved"

Jebediah said:

It so amuses me that many of the same people who insist on literal Biblical interpretation will turn around and say Christ meant anything except what He actually said:

53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

Maybe it's because it points out the flaw in the lack of sacrements in their theology? Maybe it's because it points towards the apostolic Churches? Hmmm...

In the immortal words of Bugs Bunny, "Hmmmm....Could be."

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Good Day,Jebediah

Highly unlikely,

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

I abstain from blood.... would not what a brother or sister to fall

1Th 5:16 Rejoice evermore.
1Th 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Peace to u,

Bill



Peace to u,

Bill

I'm not familiar with Catholic teaching on this issue, but wouldn't he be speaking spiritually or metaphorically anyway? Because a "presence" in the eucharist would not be his literal flesh and blood anyway.

There's only so much he could give out if it were...

a_ntv said:

Sorry, I've read it but I dont remeber where. So I'will cancel such statement.

Anyway such two verses are not direct speak of Jesus, so are not tied with the matter "why they leaved"

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Good Day, A_ntv

I disagree , to leave out the words of Chrixt to them "right " before they left does damage to the flow of the text.

Peace to u,


Bill

BBAS 64 said:

I disagree , to leave out the words of Chrixt to them "right " before they left does damage to the flow of the text.

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Sorry again, this eveing I'm tired.
I was thinking not to consider verse 64 only <For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him>

All other parts (the direct speach) are pertinent

But I can say these parts are not as problematic as the part about eating the body.
Or it can be problematic (see verse 62 "What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before") if it is taken not as a metaphora, because this ascension it is typical of God.

peace