Jesus' message: Not what you would expect.

In Mat 6, Jesus gives his model prayer.

It contains a formula for salvation that is not really what modern Christianity describes.

In studying the NT, I've found that Jesus is consistant and constant with this message.

His message is that the keys to heaven, the method to getting to heaven is to forgive others.

That's sounds innocent enough, until you realize what it is, and what it is not.

Jesus is clear, throughout the NT, and in context.

Mat 6:
9 "This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one. '
14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Many other verses like this.

Ex, Luke 6:37 and many more.

Jesus himself follows his own advice on the cross.

Thank you for your attention.

@@

I'm not saying I believe the man.

 

I'm saying Jesus never claimed you had to believe that he was God who died on the cross.

 

Jesus clearly says you have to forgive others to be forgiven. 

Luke 6:37 & Mat 6 = forgiving others is sufficient.

If you do, you will be.

 

If you don't, you won't.

 

He argues against sacrifices.

 

The greatest irony in history is that Jesus went around saying he wasn't God (even at John 8 & John 10).  He always called himself 'Son of Man' or 'Son of God'.

 

Never something like 'brother' of God.

 

That's the greatest irony in history.

Thank you for your posts.

 

ATAT

I also see it showing us how to repent our sins; even after we are saved we sin by nature & need to repent them to God.

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Jesus says, clearly,
Mat 6

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also gorvie you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins".


You want to be forgiven? Forgive others. Don't want to be forgiven? Don't.

Period.

Not a word about the cross.

Not a word about believing Jesus is God.

but the sheep did not listen to them.

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Few Christians listen to Jesus. They usually listen to others after Jesus.

Jesus tells you his formula for salvation:

Forgive others.

He says it in different ways, in different contexts, and even practiced what he preached on the cross.

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."

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Not a claim to be God, not a claim to be a sacrifice.  Rather, a claim to be a leader who was willing to be killed for teaching his students. Notice that the sheep never 'sacrifice' their shepherd?

If you want to believe in Jesus, then you want to listen to what he died for, his teaching that you must forgive to be forgiven.

John 14:6
... "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


Well, few Christians care that Jesus himself taught what his 'way' was: You have to forgive others.  He was extremely clear, and in context on this point:

Mat 6:14-15; 18:21-22,34-35;
Mark 11:25
Luke 1:77; 6:37; 7:47; 11:4; 17:3-4; 23:34; 24:47
John 20:23


Remember, the Gospels are a short set of books, short short short.  Jesus manages to give his salvation plan 12 times.  That's an average of 3 times per Gospel.

How come you don't believe it?  (I myself don't claim to be a follower of Jesus any more.)
That's Jesus talking.


Check out then verses if you really want to fulfill John 3:16, which says you should believe in Jesus... 


Do you want to believe in him or not?

If you do, I'm not saying you should, but you ought to glance at what he wanted you to believe.

Want to fulfill John 3:16?  Want to believe in Jesus (as opposed to the Christian who gave the speach at your Church last week?)

Then you gotta at least know what the man Jesus said to believe.

We're talking 3 minutes to discover the what Jesus taught, how he wanted you to get forgiven.

Jeanna, thank you for your post.


Online Christian bible link:

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible/

It works pretty good if you want to do your own research.

Jesus did not say, "My way is the way"...He said "I am the way..."

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The meaning is the same.
His speeches are frequent and consistent with the same message: Forgive to be forgiven.

If he says you have to forgive to be forgiven, and then he says ‘I am the way…’ what is the logical conclusion? I would conclude the man is referring to his teachings.
What else?

If MLK Jr said “I am the way…” you’d assume his political philosophy.

Jesus taught X. That’s his ‘way’.

Show me "in context" Jesus arguing against the sacrifice of Himself...

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Jesus never thought of himself as a literal sin atonement sacrifice.
He often taught that you should have compassion for your neighbor, and that was better than a sacrifice.

Mark 12
32 "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

If the man excluded ‘all’ sacrifices, and Jesus liked the reply, never corrected the reply, then that’s as close to the refutation that we can get.

Jesus was willing to die, if need be, to keep on teaching.  Clearly, Jesus was on a path that required either he give up his teachings, or be killed for them.

That much he could see.


Mat 26
38 Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."
39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. 41 "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
42 He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
43 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44 So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.
45 Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"

Jesus does not see his death as integral to his teaching. He doesn’t picture his death as a literal sin atonement sacrifice.
Rather, his dangerous teaching is going to lead to his execution.
Judas is not playing a valued part in the redemption story.
Judas is betraying Jesus’ goal, which is to keep on teaching (even at to the point of death.)

‘Sacrifices’ are seen to be the willingness to give up one’s life for the teachings that you have to treat men equally = have compassion on them = do not judge them.

Works? Is it

A - what you do, or

B - your belief that Jesus is God?

Let's see:


Mat 16
24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.
26 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

Verse 24 above certainly shows that we can be like Jesus in the sacrifice of our lives.
That doesn’t fit with Jesus being the ‘final’ sacrifice. 

Mark 8:34
Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Luke 9:23
Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

There was a problem with the ritual that was taking place in the temple...

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Where does Jesus say it was just the Temple, and not all sacrifices?

I bet you could show me a verse that talks about Jesus and the Father being ONE as well, but you seem to want to skip any of those.

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Au contraire:

John clearly writes Jesus as using the phrase as a group with one goal, not that the members of the group are 100% the same a la the Trinity / Tuvix concept…


John 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one.


How is that possible if Jesus means a 'Trinity'?  It isn't.

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

'just as'?  The disciples are to merge into one entity?  No.  There is no 'Trinity.'  It's not even mentioned.


John 17:22
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:

Transporter malfunction?  Or did the non-Jews misunderstand what Jews mean by being a Son of God?    We are all sons of God.  They have a different back ground, so 'Son of God' means something else in the non-Jewish context.  That has been imposed upon Jesus' words after the NT.

Jesus was also described many times as the "lamb"

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John 1
28This all happened at Bethany on the other side of the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' 31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel."
32Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.

This is not a description of a ‘sin atonement sacrifice.’
How will Jesus ‘take away the sins of the world?’
Why not read what Jesus himself says on the subject of being forgiven from your sins?
Jesus himself describes how to be forgiven from your sins.
Forgive others. Do not judge them. Do not condemn them. (Christian theology is in stark contrast to this last part. Christian theology condemns people to hell if they sin and do not accept Jesus as God as a literal sin atonement sacrifice.)


Luke 10:3
Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves.

Not a description of a sin atonement sacrifice at all.


John 21:15
When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."

The idea that ‘lamb’ is a code for a literal sin atonement sacrifice does not hold up.
John 21:15 says that his followers are the ‘lambs.’


All other NT mentions of 'lamb' are of literal lambs (the Passover sacrifice, which was not a sin atonement sacrifice... even Jesus had to bring his lamb sacrifice or be cut off from God)

His sacrifice was to bring complete and full salvation because of His perfection...

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What is the verse that says that if I believe Jesus is God who was literally sacrificed, it is THAT which saves me? What is the verse that says I must believe that at all?

If you follow what Jesus taught, you have to forgive others. End of story.

Also, how do you reckon with the first chapter of John when it plainly discusses Jesus length of days being unending...

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What are you talking about? You have the wrong chapter.  Are you talking about Isaiah 53?  (and, Jesus' days did come to an end.  He died and went to heaven, had no children...)

 

?

 

You take away Jesus' divinity...

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Jesus did that every time he called himself ‘Son of God’ and Son of man.

Both phrases are code for man in contrast to God throughout the Jewish Scriptures.
Many verses upon request, in context, on point.

you take away Christianity's uniqueness...

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I hope to help stop people from worshipping a guy.
That’s a biblical sin to everyone. Don’t risk it.

that's a ploy that will and has been undertaken forever, because of jealousy

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I’ll have to agree with you on that.


Exodus 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, …

Exodus 34:14 Do not worship any other god, for the Lord , whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Deuteronomy 4:24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Deuteronomy 5:9...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, …

Deuteronomy 6:15 for the Lord your God, who is among you, is a jealous God …

Deuteronomy 32:16 They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols.

Deuteronomy 32:21 They made me jealous by what is no god and angered me with their worthless idols.

Joshua 24:19…He is a holy God; he is a jealous God.

Ezekiel 8:3...where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

Nahum 1:2 The Lord is a jealous and avenging God;

…but will not succeed…

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For a dissenting opinion:

Zechariah 14:9
The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord , and his name the only name.

Thank you for your post.

you can rationalize away the truth that Jesus is God..

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Would you like to examine the typical Christian sources and see if they make that claim in context?

"Jesus did that every time he called himself ‘Son of God’ and Son of man. "

*sigh* yet ANOTHER person that doesn't realize what that title means. It means authority, not a inferior/superior or biological relationship.

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Really?

Are you sure?

Job 25
4 How then can a man be righteous before God?
How can one born of woman be pure?
5 If even the moon is not bright
and the stars are not pure in his eyes,
6 how much less man, who is but a maggot-
a son of man, who is only a worm!"

Men have authority. Jesus even thinks he has great authority.
But that don’t make him God.

That might make him claiming to be a mediator, or a super-type prophet.

Never a ‘brother’ of God.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Notice how the one mediator (Jesus) is not the same as the one God?

Thank you for your post.

Jesus has said repeatedly many times that we can only be saved through him.

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In English, if I say I am going to study Math ‘through Professor Y’ that is not a claim that Prof Y is God.

The word ‘through’ does not connote a ‘God’ status upon the indirect object.


.

If you forgave others yet not believe in the creator, you still won't go to heaven.

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Isn’t that in contrast with what Jesus actually said?


Luke 6:37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.


Mat 6:if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Blessed-one, thank you for your post.

Yup, in accordance with sharing who we are Christ was a Son of Man (notice the capitalization)

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There are no capital letters in Hebrew.

and in accordance with Pslams 2 he was the Son of God.

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Psalms 2 is referring to King David. Proof:

Psalm 89
20 I have found David my servant;
with my sacred oil I have anointed him.
27 I will also appoint him my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
28 I will maintain my love to him forever,
and my covenant with him will never fail.

Also ref:

Hos 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.

Yes, I do because the only person that can mediate is someone who has walked in both shoes.

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Do you have a verse to support that?

I have one to the contrary:

Jer 33
23 "Yet if there is an angel on his side
as a mediator, one out of a thousand,
to tell a man what is right for him,

Can ‘an angel’ be God, too?

Christ is God and also man, its call incarnation.

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The word, ‘incarnation’ does not appear even once in the NIV, KJV, NASB, YLT.

Let me know where you got that.

Christ can't relate to me (as a medator) unless he is human and can't relate to God the Father (as a medaitor) unless he is God.

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Ummm… God CAN relate to mankind directly. Want some verses to prove my point?

"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our savior..." Hmm..no God is our savior..concicidence..I think not. Also Christ says he will resurrect himself and in other passages it says God will ressurrect him. Umm..why is that? Because CHRIST IS GOD.

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The word ‘lord’ or ‘master’ works the same way. Sometimes it can refer to God. Sometimes it can refer to another.

On the ‘resurrect’ argument, I’d like to at least have the chapter and verse.
Fair enough?
I can guess, though, that I’m first going to look to see if it is possible that Jesus is talking in terms of acting as a prophet. I’m going to want you to exclude that possibility, and I’m going to want to compare your passage to similar passages of Elijah’s raising of the dead.

At a minimum.

Thank you for your post.