It's called faith, Mike. When you came to Jesus, did you know him, or did you start knowing him once you became a Christian? I would say you knew about him, of course, before you became a Christian, but you didn't know him. Because, to know him, you must be in a relationship with him. Therefore, when you say "I want you to be my Lord and savior", you are stepping out in faith.
I decided to accept Jesus because I heeded the calling and wooing of the Holy Spirit. That is not boasting of myself at all. That gives all the glory to God, because it was only when I realized that I am weak but he is strong did I come to him. If my neighbor rejects Jesus, it is because he believes the lie that Satan feeds him that says he doesn't need a Savior, that he's quite okay on his own.
EXACTLY that!
AWESOME post, s2snm!
Mike, you are a test of my patience. You accuse me of many things, when many of them you do yourself. You engage in ad hominem and circular logic, and accuse me of avoiding the questions, when many questions you will not answer.
The very heart of your position has been questioned and you remain silent in response.
Vice versa, sir.
I am using the Arminian doctrine of the elect, as you posted. The elect are by definition, those CHOSEN by God. The Arminianists believe that God looks forward into time and elects those that chose Him. The Calvinist doctrine says that God elects those He chooses based solely according to His will.
I am not "Arminianist". I am not "Calvinist". Which part of that are you not understanding? I never professed to subscribe to either.
You twist 2nd Peter. He is talking about a rich welcome versus a not so rich welcome.. He is not talking about a rich welcome versus no welcome. Otherwise, salvation would be by our own works.
Really! Their
SECOND STATE, where they are
AGAIN ENTANGLED IN THE DEFILEMENTS OF THE WORLD, that state is
WORSE THAN BEFORFE THEY WERE SAVED. Far better to have never
KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, than HAVING KNOWN, to have TURNED FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT...
OH, but you embrace the idea that God, in His infinite faith, will SWOOP DOWN in the END, and snatch them up WHILE THEY ARE IN THE VOMIT AND THE MIRE, and will DELIVER THEM TO HEAVEN! That they are "despoiled by the defilments of the world", that they are "overcome" is of no consequence!
...they are STILL SAVED!
If you will not receive the very words written by Peter, how can I expect you to receive words written by me???
...and then you say "I have an insincere heart"... uuhhhh, huhhhhh.....
WHY did you decide for Jesus and your neighbor did not? Are you going to boast on yourself again and say because you love sin less? Yet you still sin. You are like the Pharisee you talked humbleness before man, but failed to give all the glory to God. Can you answer the WHY question without boasting on yourself?
Oh I have ANSWERED this, and ANSWERED this. But, why not---I shall answer it again. THe answer will not change, so predictably you will not receive it---you will just pretend that I have not answered it...
THe Word of God was delivered to me. My heart was convicted. Though I did not fully know Jesus, I understood Who He was, and what He did for me. I received Him into my heart. In my conviction, I realized what I was. There was no "pride" or "smugness" in my view. I could not "think myself so clever to have received Him"---rather, in recognizing what I WAS,
my heart was filled with shame. THIS was my attitude, THIS IS my attitude now about what I was. I realized that it was MY HAND on that hammer that pounded those nails, those terrible nails, into my Lord. I realized the infinity of His love for me---that He would do such a thing FOR ME. Boast? I boast only in HIM. Apart from Him, I have only shame. Such is my conviction. The work of my salvation, was, and is, done entirely by Him. He could have come down from that Cross any time He wanted to. But He didn't. Why?! I ask myself. I KNOW the answer. Because He loves me. ME. I don't get it. But I don't care---I am so terribly grateful. All of this I realized BEFORE I WAS SAVED---and when I received Him into my heart, I KNEW WHAT IT MEANT. I figured, "You MADE me, use me as, and where, You will. I shall rejoice in Your presence---for You are perfect love, and in You, I AM COMPLETE!"
Yeah I understand you have taken leave of your senses.
Ad hominem.
First, just because the Spirit gives us knowledge doesnt mean He indwells us. He indwells us after we are saved.
He is revealed to each man, He calls and HELKUO-DRAGS-ALL-MEN (women inclusive), and He indwells
all who receive Him...
Second, you have again departed from every well-respected Christian teacher from the very first up to now with that inane doctrine.
No I haven't. I have only departed from the "well-respected-Christian-teachers" with whom
you happen to agree...
Third, you still havent explained about those who never hear the gospel.
Sure I have. Do children go to Heaven? (Matt18:3-4) Do mentally retarded? God is perfect JUSTNESS. Each man is held accountable to
that which he KNOWS. In Rom2, verses 14-16, Jesus now being THE LAW, Paul writes that "they show the Law (Jesus) written in their hearts"; and their conscience will accuse and defend them on the day of judgment.
Fourth, I find it completely inane that you think we simply believe what we hear without knowing its truthfulness. Maybe you think that is sound thinking, but I doubt you will find many people who will agree with you.
Many people
do agree with me. And that, is because I agree with Scripture. Scripture says that "He calls ALL MEN". It says that "while we were dead, He died for us, the just for the unjust". It says "faith comes by hearing". And "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as LORD, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation". It says "all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved". When we hear the Gospel, we BELIEVE, because it CONVICTS us---in plainer words,
we recognize its TRUTHFULNESS...
You might find a couple of people wanting to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge or a fancy thing-a-ma-jig that mows the lawn, dusts the furniture and makes the bed for 4 easy installments of $39.99.
Derogatory, and unproductive.
Finally, you have not one shred of Biblical proof for your imaginations.
Ah---then all of these Scriptures I have been quoting,
have all been for naught. Don't worry, Mike---there are lots of lurkers
reading these posts---and I guarantee THEY have been thumbing their Bibles, asking themselves: "Is Ben RIGHT? Is THAT in the WORD?" And they have found,
it is.
Can I get another debating partner. One that has their ideas grounded somewhat in reality?
You mean, one that you can refute
with success???
PS: Confession time---I worried that I would lose my patience. I worried that the message would suffer because because of my Humanness. I have prayed, I have striven for my words to be His. To always speak in love and good fellowship. I was grieved at the thought that I might fail in my attitude of love.
Mike, I believe your patience has been exceeded. Though I was grieved at the thought of MY failing, I am equally grieved at the thought of YOUR failing. There is no FIGHT here, there is no WINNER. THere is, or there should be, only brotherly love, contending for the truth, seeking that-which-is-written in Scripture.
If I have, in any way or measure, Mike, provoked you, or come across in an "unchristian manner", then I very sincerely, and to the depths of my soul,
apologize. Theological discussions are about growth, admonishment, purity of doctrine, fellowship and love.
"In all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity of doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, in order that the other may have nothing bad to say about us..." Titus 2:7-8