Hebrews and the preterist view

Hi Aggi,
Well, it looks like we have a conflict that needs to be resolved, for elsewhere in the Bible, the word of God and therefore the truth, it is written:

Psalms 78:69
And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever."

So, you see the quandry, you have a scripture that says the earth will end, I have one that says it will last forever.

They can't both be right...hmmmm what to do...

Well, lets examine your verse. It is dealing with a "heaven & earth" as it relates to "Hebrews" correct?
Could there be a "Heaven and Earth" exclusive to Hebrews that God was going to destroy?

Lets see shall we?

This language sounds very similar to
Isiah 51:16
In describing what took place after God parted the sea and brought th Hebrew people out of Egypt;
51:16
And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, 'You are My people.'

Aggi, Notice how God describes the deliverance of the Hebrews out of Egypt, and the Giving of the Law as the planting of heavens and earth

The creation of Heavens and Earth in Isaiah 51:16 can not be referring to physical creation, for that had already ocourred long before God brought Israel out of Egypt.

God brought the Jews into the wilderness, formed them into a covenant nation, Firmly establishing them as His people.

God called that process the "Planting of Heaven and earth"

This is the very same planting of Heaven and earth the Writer of Hebrews is referring to when referancing it's destruction. The destruction of the "Heavens and earth" of old covenant Judiasm that God created after He parted the sea.

Based on the fact that the scriptures teach again and again and again that the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21), the conclusion that the "heaven and earth" that Jesus & the apostles all taught was coming to an end was indeed the "heaven and earth" of operational Biblical Judiasm, is the only conclusion that rests in harmony with the rest of scripture.

Now, If you disagree, as I expect you will, please show me how God created the "heavens and earth" AFTER he parted the sea in Isaiah 51:16.

Peace in Christ,
P70

I find it interesting that you believe the earth will endure forever, yet you believe that the Jews are no longer God's chosen.

The view that the earth will one day be destroyed is a narrow view held only within particular sects given over to apocalypticism. The writer of Hebrews, in the above cited passage, speaks of heaven and earth "perishing" and "becoming old" in the sense of their going through the necessary trial in order to be "rolled up" and "changed" so as to better reflect the glory and splendor of the eternal and never-chaning God who created them for that very purpose.

The resurrection is the hope not only of a redeemed humanity, but of a fully redeemed creation, as well. As Paul says, "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God (Romans 8:20-21).

Preterists will say "the creation" refers only to the Church, and that is true from a covenental level. However, in order to refute the persistent attempts by dispensationalists who are eager for God to destroy the planet, it is important to also consider the cosmic dimensions of the hope of creation.

But more on that will require a separate thread.

Originally posted by Mandy
I find it interesting that you believe the earth will endure forever, yet you believe that the Jews are no longer God's chosen.

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The Bible teaches both to be true, so I believe it.

I'm glad you are so interested

Mandy,

Spiritual Jews...are still God's chosen people...how the shift from physical to spirtiual circumcision is detailed extensively in the N.T.

In dealing with dispensationalists who long for Israel after the flesh, are we not actually dealing with the modern-day equivalent of Judaizers?

Originally posted by parousia70
Hi Aggi,
Well, it looks like we have a conflict that needs to be resolved, for elsewhere in the Bible, the word of God and therefore the truth, it is written:

Psalms 78:69
And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever."

So, you see the quandry, you have a scripture that says the earth will end, I have one that says it will last forever.

They can't both be right...hmmmm what to do...

Click to expand...

One thing you could do is look up the Hebrew word translated as "forever". It's actually not "forever" at all, but "ever". And in this case, "ever" means a really long time. But not necessarily eternity.

From Strongs:

(5769) `owlam
o-lawm'

or lolam {o-lawm'}; from '`alam' (5956); properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:--alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare 'netsach' (5331), '`ad' (5703).

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Originally posted by parousia70
Based on the fact that the scriptures teach again and again and again that the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21)

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Some of these verses don't seem to have anything to do with what you're talking about. I suspect you may have some typos here. But the OT ones I followed that do apply all use the same Hebrew word.

Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
In dealing with dispensationalists who long for Israel after the flesh, are we not actually dealing with the modern-day equivalent of Judaizers?

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No, you're not. Judaizers are those who want to impose the law on Christians. That has nothing to do with God fulfilling His promise to the Jews.

The Judaizers wanted to impose the Old Covenant on Christians so they could become "Jews" in some outward, physical way. Dispensationalists want to reinstitute the Old Covenant so that those who are "Jews" outwardly and physically can once again be considered "God's chosen people."

Sounds like same song, different verse to me.

Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
The Judaizers wanted to impose the Old Covenant on Christians so they could become "Jews" in some outward, physical way. Dispensationalists want to reinstitute the Old Covenant so that those who are "Jews" outwardly and physically can once again be considered "God's chosen people."

Sounds like same song, different verse to me.

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First of all, I don't know why some of you keep bringing up the term "dispensationalist." Some of you have identified yourselves as preterists, but I have yet to see anyone claim to be a dispensationalist. Perhaps I just missed those messages. But does it occur to you that many of us are not dispensationalists?

Second of all, to deny that God will fulfill his specific promises to the Jews separately from the gentiles is to contradict scripture.

I've already quoted Romans 11, but here it is again. And there's no way to "spritualize" these references to Israel to mean the church, because Paul is contrasting the two in this whole chapter!

1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.

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More important, Paul responds directly to your assertion with the following:

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."

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So Israel is in a temporary state of blindness, but that won't last forever. Obviously, this is yet another unfulfilled prophecy, since the fullness of the gentiles has not yet come in.

Originally posted by npetreley

Second of all, to deny that God will fulfill his specific promises to the Jews separately from the gentiles is to contradict scripture.

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You claim you are not a dispensationalist, but that is the standard dispensationalist mantra and it is that position which directly contradicts Scripture.

Ephes. 2:11-22 (ESV)
Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— [12] remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. [13] But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. [14] For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility [15] by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, [16] and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. [17] And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. [18] For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. [19] So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [20] built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, [21] in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. [22] In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

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Why do you continue to lust for Israel after the flesh? How much more clear does the Scripture need to be? No one, Jew or Gentile, will be accounted righteous based upon works of the law, but anyone, Jew or Gentile, can be accounted righteous if they put their faith in Jesus Christ! To suggest that God fulfills his promises to the Jews separately from the Gentiles is to suggest that the Jews, apart from the Gentiles, have an extra requirment to meet in order to be accounted righteous. Thus, you nullify the grace of God, just like the Judaizers.

Just wondering does anyone here know anything about Judaism??

Originally posted by parousia70
Hi Aggi,
Well, it looks like we have a conflict that needs to be resolved, for elsewhere in the Bible, the word of God and therefore the truth, it is written:

Psalms 78:69
And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever."

So, you see the quandry, you have a scripture that says the earth will end, I have one that says it will last forever.

They can't both be right...hmmmm what to do...

Well, lets examine your verse. It is dealing with a "heaven & earth" as it relates to "Hebrews" correct?
Could there be a "Heaven and Earth" exclusive to Hebrews that God was going to destroy?

Lets see shall we?

This language sounds very similar to
Isiah 51:16
In describing what took place after God parted the sea and brought th Hebrew people out of Egypt;
51:16
And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, 'You are My people.'

Aggi, Notice how God describes the deliverance of the Hebrews out of Egypt, and the Giving of the Law as the planting of heavens and earth

The creation of Heavens and Earth in Isaiah 51:16 can not be referring to physical creation, for that had already ocourred long before God brought Israel out of Egypt.

God brought the Jews into the wilderness, formed them into a covenant nation, Firmly establishing them as His people.

God called that process the "Planting of Heaven and earth"

This is the very same planting of Heaven and earth the Writer of Hebrews is referring to when referancing it's destruction. The destruction of the "Heavens and earth" of old covenant Judiasm that God created after He parted the sea.

Based on the fact that the scriptures teach again and again and again that the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21), the conclusion that the "heaven and earth" that Jesus & the apostles all taught was coming to an end was indeed the "heaven and earth" of operational Biblical Judiasm, is the only conclusion that rests in harmony with the rest of scripture.

Now, If you disagree, as I expect you will, please show me how God created the "heavens and earth" AFTER he parted the sea in Isaiah 51:16.

Peace in Christ,
P70

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Hi Parousia 70  .  I know you believe the world won't come to an end ,  but there is more evidence to say that it will rather than it won't  .  Please check out the link I have posted .  Thanks .

 

http://www.deoxy.org/sciwarn.htm

Originally posted by gwyyn
Just wondering does anyone here know anything about Judaism??

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Hi gwyyn .  Just check out the link and have fun  . By .

 

 

http://www.7metasearch.com/scripts/search/7metasearch/results.asp?q=judaism&submit1=Search

Originally posted by Brian45


 

 

Hi Parousia 70  .  I know you believe the world won't come to an end ,  but there is more evidence to say that it will rather than it won't  .  Please check out the link I have posted .  Thanks .

 

http://www.deoxy.org/sciwarn.htm

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Thanks for the link Brian, having spent a significant period of my life as an environmental activist, I am very familiar with that open letter.

While I agree that Climate change is inevitable, global population eruption continues to be problematic, the very real threat of astroid collision becoming ever more understood, etc, etc,,,,,....... I would maintain that nothing presented thus far convinces me that any of these things will destroy the earth, in fact here's an article that came out just yesterday documenting just how quick the earth indeed can rebound from catastrophy:

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/06/27/ancient.rainforest.ap/index.html

 

Kingdoms rise and fall, empires come and go, Civilizations have increased and declined, global catastrophies encompass and receed, and through it all, the earth endures .

Hi Parousia . You were an environmental activist ? on what planet ?

Just kidding Parousia . I did read your link but only speaks about the earth recovering after an asteroid collision .

I was hoping to make you aware of global warming , ozone depletion etc etc .

Originally posted by Brian45


 

 

Hi Parousia 70  .  I know you believe the world won't come to an end ,  but there is more evidence to say that it will rather than it won't  .  Please check out the link I have posted .  Thanks .

 

http://www.deoxy.org/sciwarn.htm

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Brian45,

Most of the stuff at this link is very controversial. For example, on the global warming issue, they have 1500 signatures from scientists that say global warming is a problem. Try the link below. It has 19,200 signatures from scientists who say global warming is not a problem. Who do you believe? Does anybody really know?

http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p357.htm

Ozark

 

Hi ozark . I read your link but it's only a petition wanting people to sign it to agree that the earth is not being harmed . I think this is conected to the presidents refusal to sign the kyoto agreement .

Originally posted by Brian45
Hi Parousia . You were an environmental activist ? on what planet ?

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Planet earth, United States of America, State of Oregon, City of Eugene (Granola, pachouli, enviro-radical capital of the world) I was a "Dirt First" tree hugging, Grateful Dead listening, Spotted Owl whale saver from way  back.

Just kidding Parousia . I did read your link but only speaks about the earth recovering after an asteroid collision .

I was hoping to make you aware of global warming , ozone depletion etc etc .

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As stated, I'm well aware of those things, but have become unconvinced of their bility to "destroy the planet" for the planet, (from a strictly scientific standpoint) has withstood climate change again and again and again.

Planet earth will endure.