Purgatory in ANglican

Ahazmat · Apr 15, 2006

PaladinValer said:
The Romish idea is what is talked about in the Articles.

1. There are additional concepts of purgatory than just that of Rome
2. The Articles are notwithstanding anymore. Feel free to chuck them out the nearest airlock.

Who voided the articles?

Ahazmat · Apr 15, 2006

PaladinValer said:
"Tiny Minority?" Sure...

I have not met any Anglicans who believe in Pugatory other than those members of the Anglican Rite.

Ahazmat · Apr 15, 2006

Thomas2618 said:
Thank you. Purgatory when it is defined as a purgation by fire is not an Anglican doctrine. But many Anglicans (including myself) use the term purgatory meaning that it is that place of preparation for their resurrection and adhere to that belief.

That is not really what is meant by Purgatory when the term is used by most people. Purgator is thought of like something out of Dantes Inferno. NIven and Pournell did a modern version of INFERNO that is very funny.

Ahazmat · Apr 15, 2006

What? Who? Which Evangelical Protestant Denominations are you talking about? Please name them. Can you give us a solid scriptural reference for Purgatory, you know Chapter and Verse?
I believe you are mistaken in your assertions.

Ahazmat · Apr 15, 2006

gitlance said:
The realm of the dead, of which those faithful adherents to the Catholic faith believe, encompasses both paradise and hades. Remember Christ's parable of the rich man and Lazarus?

Here are some passages from the fathers about it:

--from de Anima

--from Adversus Haereses

Yes that is what they wrote. But where is the solid scriptural reference for their assertions? They did not die for me. The one who did die for me did not preach purgatory. He said it is finished.

Ahazmat · Apr 15, 2006

gitlance said:
Go look up just about any evangelical church's statement of faith. I was raised in a very middle-of-the-road non-denominational evangelical Charismatic church. They didn't teach that this purgation was in a place, but rather an event that happened before the judgment.

Of course, when I say "evangelical," I am not referring to Evangelical Anglicans. So do not take this to apply to you, as I doubt it does.

You made the assertion. You post the statements of faith from the denominations you say support Purgatory. I do not know of any Mainstream Protestant denominations that support your position.

Ahazmat · Apr 15, 2006

ChessCastle said:
[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' (Luke 16:22-24)

No, this is not a place I think the term paradise applies to in any way shape or form.

CC
[/font]

Does not sound like Purgatory either. It sounds like something much worse.

Naomi4Christ · Apr 15, 2006

Ahazmat said:
Who voided the articles?

American Anglo-Catholics, so it seems.

Great nostalgia reading this thread....I miss Albion.

Welcome to STR, Ahazmat.

Ahazmat · Apr 15, 2006

ChessCastle said:
"Each mans work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any mans work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:13-15).

Maybe they should?

CC

Maybe Paul should have asked Jesus about that writing. Oh wait, Paul never met Jesus. And None of the Diciples called Paul and Apostle: Only Paul called Paul an Apostle Jesus. Paul was a good preacher though, I have to give him that.

Ahazmat · Apr 15, 2006

ChessCastle said:
I really don't know because I haven't spoken to very many Anglicans about it. My understanding is that there is a place of the dead where all go awaiting judgement.

The story of the rich man indicates that there is a place that is NOT paradise, where some people will go after death and will receive punishment before the final judgement. This doesn't mean there isn't another place where the dead will not suffer.

The point is this, if the rich man is not in hell, and he is in fact somewhere suffering before his final judgement, then this is not far from the concept of purgatory (Not the Roman concept) that I believe.

CC

I always though the rich man poor man story was an illustrative allegory used to teach a several lessons. I never thought of it as real. Any way it sure is not a place to learn lessons you should have learned while you were alive. The rich man is dead and a resident of Infernoland.

Ahazmat · Apr 15, 2006

PaladinValer said:
Purgatory in what meaning? Your question was way, way too vague.

And I'm surprised that such theologians wouldn't ask for clarification. Shoddy on their part.

Not really. The theologins knew about the sect of which they were speaking.

Ahazmat · Apr 15, 2006

gitlance said:
Albion, when I say that, and then make reference to Anglican literature about certain beliefs, you tell me that it isn't true.

Now, I happen to believe that there is a realm of the dead (though not just a paradise exclusively for believers), and I feel that there is sufficient support for that from the early Church.

How can evangelical Anglican beliefs be defended in history, yet Anglo-Catholic beliefs apparently aren't allowed to have any historical defense?

Just please give us some solid scriptural reference other than that singile metaphorical story to justify your Catholic docrtine of Purgatory. NOT one of the ECF. Not a letter by the preacher Paul. How about something by God, or Jesus, or even JUST ONE of the OT prophets of the Most High God, or even ONE of the diciples of Jesus the Christ who actually knew Jesus. I do not think you can find one.

Ahazmat · Apr 15, 2006

gitlance said:
Then perhaps you need to go study Henry VIII and Elizabeth I. They most certainly did not "trash" them. In fact, Henry was a staunch Catholic his whole life (including after the break with Rome). He had his own articles of faith published. You should go check them out.

Elizabeth intentionally formed the Anglican Church into something which could accomodate evangelicals and Catholics. Never in history were Catholics kicked out. The very fact that we maintained the apostolic succession, the three-fold ministry, the creeds, and the complete canon of Scripture proves that Catholicity was in fact embraced by the reformers.

As I recall we had a pretty good civil war to solve the questions you pose. And the Protestants won as I recall.

Simon_Templar · Apr 15, 2006

Ahazmat said:
Just please give us some solid scriptural reference ..... Not a letter by the preacher Paul. How about something by God, or Jesus, or even JUST ONE of the OT prophets of the Most High God, or even ONE of the diciples of Jesus the Christ who actually knew Jesus. I do not think you can find one.

ummm... huh? This is typical

I LOVE it when people say things like "prove it from scripture" and then they proceed to deny huge sections of scripture because those sections cause problems for their own beliefs.

Simon_Templar · Apr 15, 2006

Ahazmat said:
Maybe Paul should have asked Jesus about that writing. Oh wait, Paul never met Jesus. And None of the Diciples called Paul and Apostle: Only Paul called Paul an Apostle Jesus. Paul was a good preacher though, I have to give him that.

As I remember it, Paul did meet Jesus (on the road, the fact that he met the Risen Christ doesn't make him any less Christ), and he was confirmed by the other Apostles.. this is all recorded in the book of acts which was not written by Paul.

PaladinValer · Apr 15, 2006

Ahazmat said:
Yep that is what I remember. So I guess that answers my question as to if this was an Anglican or an Anglican Rite of the Catholic church designation.

Um, Anglicans are Catholic.

Incidentally, I feel compelled to ask: what is with the recent trend of thread resurrection? If you don't see the topic within a month's worth of posts, it is perfectly acceptable to initiate a new thread on it

Who voided the articles?

You missed the point of my post. The point is that it talked about the "Romish" doctrine. There are other concepts of "purgatory" besides that of the Vatican Catholic Church.

have not met any Anglicans who believe in Pugatory other than those members of the Anglican Rite.

Henry VIII ring any bells? Never met him, but he died an Anglican, after all.

In addition, you might ask C.S. Lewis, who definitely believed in some concept of purgatory.

And yes, there is a minority, though not as tiny as people think, of Anglicans who have no problem with the Vatican Catholic concept of purgatory.

That is not really what is meant by Purgatory when the term is used by most people. Purgator is thought of like something out of Dantes Inferno. NIven and Pournell did a modern version of INFERNO that is very funny.

No, the Vatican Catholic idea of purgatory is rooted in both Scripture and Tradition, just as all other concepts of purgatory are. That is the most understood meaning of purgatory...do not forget that just over one half of all Christians are Vatican Catholics.

What? Who? Which Evangelical Protestant Denominations are you talking about? Please name them. Can you give us a solid scriptural reference for Purgatory, you know Chapter and Verse?
I believe you are mistaken in your assertions.

1. Anglicans are not "Evangelical;" that's a title traditionally ascribed to Lutherans, not Anglicans.
2. Anglicanism is not Protestant in terms of doctrine, at least not initially. We are no more Protestant in terms of doctrine than the Old Catholics are, a church to which we are in Full Communion with.
3. There are a number of places in Scripture:

2 Maccabees 12:39-45 (particularly the last two verses)
1 Corinthians 3:15; 15:29
Revelation 21:27
Psalm 141:8
Daniel 12:10
Micah 7:9
Zechariah 9:11
St. Matthew 5:16; 12:32&36
St. Luke 12:47-48
Philippians 2:10
Hebrews 12:22b
St. James 3:1
1 St. Peter 3:19; 4:18; 7:37
St. Jude 23
Genesis 50:10
Numbers 20:29
Deuteronomy 34:8
2 St. Timothy 1:16-18; 4:19

All of the above show proof that we don't just zip right into heaven or hell upon our death. There is a "holding area" of souls where we continue our regenerative process (or begin a process of decay into depravity).

Yes that is what they wrote. But where is the solid scriptural reference for their assertions? They did not die for me. The one who did die for me did not preach purgatory. He said it is finished.

You've now given a classic example of misunderstanding of Vatican Catholic theology. I would highly suggest you take a trip over to OBOB and ask them what they hold to be their concept of Purgatory before you assume anymore.

Does not sound like Purgatory either. It sounds like something much worse.

Again, there are different concepts of purgatory. ChessCastle's post is proof of one of them.

Naomi4Christ said:
American Anglo-Catholics, so it seems.

**Buzzer**

Wrong again.

Ahazmat said:
Maybe Paul should have asked Jesus about that writing. Oh wait, Paul never met Jesus. And None of the Diciples called Paul and Apostle: Only Paul called Paul an Apostle Jesus. Paul was a good preacher though, I have to give him that.

Official Anglican doctrine is that St. Paul is an Apostle.

I always though the rich man poor man story was an illustrative allegory used to teach a several lessons. I never thought of it as real. Any way it sure is not a place to learn lessons you should have learned while you were alive. The rich man is dead and a resident of Infernoland.

It is a story, but it is based on the Jewish and Christian theology of the time. In the story, the rich man has gone not to hell but to sheol, the abode of the dead, which is divided into two: hades which is the abode of those souls who were not righteous and paradise, or "Abraham's Bosom," which is the abode who were righteous.

There is no one currently in hell. It is empty. It won't be populated until the Judgment is stated.

Not really. The theologins knew about the sect of which they were speaking.

Which "theologians" are these?

Please understand that you do not seem to understand what purgatory is for Vatican Catholics nor do you seem to understand that their conept isn't the only one.

Incidentally, you shouldn't make so many posts in a row. Copy and paste sections of posts you are going to reply to in your reply post, wrap them in quote tags, and then reply.

Ahazmat · Apr 15, 2006

Simon_Templar said:
ummm... huh? This is typical I LOVE it when people say things like "prove it from scripture" and then they proceed to deny huge sections of scripture because those sections cause problems for their own beliefs.

Simon, the debates over Paul have been quite thourough and changed my mind about regarding his letters as being as valid as actual scripture by God, Moses, Ezra, Ezekiel, Jesus, and James for example. His stuff is good stuff but where it contradicts God, Jesus, the OT prophets, or James ... (lets be kind) it must be a mistranslation. So I have to ask my self which source will I believe God or Paul. Somehow God wins every time.

Ahazmat · Apr 15, 2006

Thank you for the refs I will look them over.
There is the Anglican Rite of the Catholic Church
and
There is the Anglican Communion
which is not under the authority of the Roman Catholic Pope.

We had some wars about this difference and many people died.
Seems it is still part of the problem in Ireland. It is still pretty obvious the Anglicans are not Roman Catholics over there.

I remember going to Newrey Town and finding the Anglican Church vandalized and the Church Doors locked while the Catholic Church was in good shape and open.

But this way off topic or is it. Doctrinal differences between the sects have and do lead to violence and death. I find it kinda bizarre when one group of Christians kill another group of christians over differences of opinion over ideas that cant be absolutely proven
either way.

Thankefully Cromwell used Asian style terror to subdue the Island with less death than there otherwise would have been.

Ah King Billy, I love him.

Ahazmat · Apr 15, 2006

ChessCastle said:
I don't think anyone expects you to swoon. You have stated yourself that you don't read the Church fathers, and that you don't see a need to study the history of the Church. Thats your choice, and as a 'baby' christian I'm not going to judge you for making it.

CC

The ECF had a tendency to spend part of their time calling the other ECF wrong. There stuff is interesting but not absolutet nor is it on the same level of validity as scripture. Some of their ideas were just Nutty like, " You married people should blush with shame for what you do."

Ahazmat · Apr 15, 2006

gitlance said:
Baby Christian? So now you have the authority to judge another's maturity, when that other person is in fact apparently more well-informed of the historic faith than most Christians today?

And if it's a quote you want, here's one for you:

So St. Irenaeus, AD 160 thought he knew more about what Jesus really meant than the Apostles who lived with Jesus and learned directly from him. ROTF

Purgatory in ANglican

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Naomi4Christ

not a nutter

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Simon_Templar

Not all who wander are lost

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Not all who wander are lost

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Traditional Orthodox Anglican

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