Job; Justification for our suffering, or a tale of victory?

JimB · Apr 13, 2006

probinson said:
What an incredibly limiting view of God.

Why couldn't God simply say, hey Jim, take a different route than you normally take? Or stay home today, because something bad is going to happen. Indeed, there are stories of this very thing happening on the morning of 9/11.

God has done this very thing with me. He's told me, turn here. Then I find out later that there was an accident down the road that had I not listened and turned I may well have been involved in.

No severe virus required. No forceful manipulation from the heavenlies. Just a son obeying his Father.

Man, Pete, is insulting your opponent your only method of debating? In another thread you accused me of calling Jesus a failure and now I am "incredibly limiting God"?.

But, while I am tempted to blow off your insults by just not responding, I will consider the source and reply.

My example (above), as flawed as it may be, was used to illustrate a point. But then your 9/11 example is just as flawed. While some may have “heard God” and escaped the disaster, some 3,000 didn’t, and I have heard reports of people (maybe believers) who called in because of illness and didn’t go to work that morning.

God speaks to me too, Pete (you are probably surprised to hear that since you apparently have such a low opinion of me) and sometimes I even listen when He speaks. But there are times when He speaks and I (and, who knows, maybe even you) do not hear. So, if he protects me in other ways – even through an illness – it is because He is merciful.

~Jim

JimfromOhio · Apr 13, 2006

Regarding God allowing a Christian to get sick, it is interesting theory and doctrines that are being taught.

Boil is a skin tumor which is skin disease.
In the Old Testament, people were infected by boils:
1 Plague of Boils for Egyptians (Exodus 9:9,10; Deuteronomy 28:27,35)
2.Boils of the Philistines (1 Samuel 5:6,9;6:5)
3.Boils of Hezekiah, healed (2 Kings 20:7; Isaiah 38:21)
4.Boils of Job (Job 2:7,8)
5.Levitical calls boil as an infectious skin disease and have ceremonies prescribed for boils (Leviticus 13:18-23)

In the beginning of the Book of Job, Job's innocence is established so that people won't interpret Job's friends opinions as judgemental. The very first verse explains that Job was blameless and a man of complete integrity. Job's faith was very strong and feared (loved) God.

Job's friends (Eliphaz, Bildad, & Zophar) reminds me of some movements :sigh:

who believes that when Christians get sick, they blame on a Christian who have committed sin. There are many of those who believes such doctrines. There are so many Elphazs, Bildads, and Zophars. God allowed Satan to inflict Job (i.e. boil which is a skin disease). The fact of Job's story is that there are no answers when disaster strikes. We can't explain everything. Faith is to keep trusting God no matter what happens.

Just wanted to throw this out.

Keep on debating and I will be lurking.

LittleRocketBoy · Apr 13, 2006

You are holding an unresolvable dichotomy here.
"I can trust an evil doing God to do good to me."
How???
How do you know He will not "pull a Job" on you and send you to hell despite what Jesus did for and your faithfulness to Him and His word? Faith is not based solely on His existence and power and ability to "do anything"... but also on His nature to use that power for your good and not your harm. If God did evil things to Job... why not you? How do you know satan will not goad Him into slapping you into hell on a bet?
If (as you say) "Because He is true I can trust His goodness, faithfulness, integrity, and reliability." Then how do you square this with your rendition of the Job story? Was that good? Was it good to kill off the kids, destroy all his life, and fill him up with disease? That does not sound good to me!

Sorry, it seems you are talking out both sides of your mouth here. Either He is a good God who can be depended upon giving good things and blessings to His faithful, or He is a bad God who controls everything and shows it by doing those very things. You cannot have it both ways.
A good God does not do bad things.

Jim M said:
What?

Okay, then, you are wrong.

Because He is true I can trust His goodness, faithfulness, integrity, and reliability. And because He is God ... like, the Creator of the Entire Universe ... I believe He is in control. Sorry, I dont get your point.

Nor does that mean that I think God micro-manages the universe, although I believe that, because of His foreknowledge, nothing is beyond His control.

I could make a snide remark here, but I will let the temptation pass.

~Jim

LittleRocketBoy · Apr 13, 2006

Jim M said:
You can magnify this in a thousand different ways but it all boils down to God knows but we dont. His job is to love and care according to His endless mercy and as He sees fit. Our job is to trust Him no matter what circumstances tell us.

~Jim

And this is where the con arguement about Job always ends up:

"We don't know God."

You are the second person in this thread that has boiled it down to a mere "I dunno."

This is why I disagree with this position so strongly. It completely refutes the idea that Jesus has successfully shown us the Father. I do not say everything... but in the things that matter regarding His nature, His position and will for us in our lives... Jesus was successful in showing us the Father.

I say we can and do know, and in fact are commanded to know the complete and perfect will of God.
Using Job to overule the clear and exact image of God shown us by Jesus is simply stepping back from the gospel.

lismore · Apr 13, 2006

LittleRocketBoy said:
A good God does not do bad things.

Hello

I see what you mean. Fresh water and salt water do not flow from the same spring. Who are we to say what God can or cannot do, but in this case there doesnt seem to have been any good reason for what happened to Job.

The bottom line on why Job suffered was the works of the devil and for this purpose was the son of God made manifest: to destroy the works of the devil.

:amen:

probinson · Apr 13, 2006

Jim M said:
Man, Pete, is insulting your opponent your only method of debating? In another thread you accused me of calling Jesus a failure and now I am "incredibly limiting God"?.

Perhaps you should check out the "Putting away childish things" thread.

Your statement that God may need to put a "severe virus" on you to keep you from a fatal accident is extremely limiting. God is bigger than that. I am not "insulting" you. I am stating what I view as a limiting statement from you.

Jim M said:
But, while I am tempted to blow off your insults by just not responding, I will consider the source and reply.

Well gee, that's awful big of you. This feigned offense gets quite old. :yawn:

Jim M said:
My example (above), as flawed as it may be, was used to illustrate a point. But then your 9/11 example is just as flawed. While some may have heard God and escaped the disaster, some 3,000 didnt, and I have heard reports of people (maybe believers) who called in because of illness and didnt go to work that morning.

How do we know God didn't speak to at least some of the 3,000 and they just didn't listen?

And reports that people called in because of illness? There's a solid explanation for you. Why, just yesterday, 3 people in my department called in because of illness. Ironically, no planes crashed into the office. :doh:

Jim M said:
God speaks to me too, Pete (you are probably surprised to hear that since you apparently have such a low opinion of me) and sometimes I even listen when He speaks. But there are times when He speaks and I (and, who knows, maybe even you) do not hear. So, if he protects me in other ways even through an illness it is because He is merciful.

I don't have a low opinion of you and I'm not "insulting" you nor have I ever questioned whether God speaks to you. You're trying to turn this into a me vs. you issue and it simply is not. Again, let me suggest the "Putting away childish things" thread. Very insightful.

There are plenty of times when God speaks and I either do not hear or do not listen. But to suggest that the next thing he'll do is strike me with illness because of some distorted view of "mercy", I ain't buyin' it.

I have a son. I can promise you that no matter what he does and no matter how hard I am trying to protect him, I will not infect him with a disease. If I then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to my child, how much more does God know to give good things to his children?

probinson · Apr 13, 2006

Strong in Him said:
I don't take Satan's word for anything. It says in my Bible that Satan told God that Job only feared him because he, the Lord, protected (hedge) and blessed him. He went onto say that if God were to "strike everything he has", then it would be a different story and Job would curse him. Nowhere does God say "there is no hedge, I have not been protecting or keeping him safe."

Satan said that there was a hedge. God replies "Behold, everything he has IS in your hands." Satan apparently didn't know that, being that Satan is not an all-knowing being like God. Why did God point that out to him? I simply don't know.

Strong in Him said:
I didn't mean that it was your personal theory. I meant that the teaching that God only and always wants good things for his children is somewhat diminished by the story of Job. Unless people ignore what the first two chapters say and teach the message that Job was formerly a Godfearing man who allowed the devil into his life through fear, and the devil caused him to lose everything. In which case, whatever the Bible says, it was nothing to do with God; Job's suffering was his own fault.

It is not necessary to ignore any part of the Bible. I view the story of Job as one of victory, not as one of why I may have to suffer if God allows it. As has been mostly ignored this entire thread, God DOES only want good things for his children, which is why He sent us Jesus. Even Job seemed to understand that if he had an Advocate, he wouldn't have suffered as long.

Strong in Him said:
I'm not talking about the length of time that a person suffers, I'm talking about the fact that it happens, and where God is in all of it.

But the length of time is important, no? People want to say they're just like Job. Really? God healed Job. His ordeal only lasted for a little while. Then God blessed the socks off Job. Why is this ALWAYS left out of the teaching of Job? People emphasize that "God allowed Job to suffer" while completely forgetting the last chapter of Job where God gave it all back to Job and then some.

Strong in Him said:
We, Job, Jesus, Paul pray to be healed/spared/delivered from something and it doesn't happen. Evil/sickness/the trial remains. I have no problem with saying that it is God who sometimes allows it to remain for a short time, either because he sees it will refine us, increase our faith or dependancy on him, teach us patience, compassion or whatever; or that he allows it to remain for the good of others. Jesus' suffering comes into that latter category. Other people - and not just some that I have met on this forum either - say that that is wrong and cannot be. God does not allow things like that to happen, or evil to remain. God always wants good things for his followers, and could not allow anything negative to cross their paths. If we have a problem, it's the devil, and it is we who can allow it to remain by our faith, or whatever. God always wants to heal.

Jesus showed us the will of the Father. Jesus always wanted to heal, while in fact the Bible says that He COULD NOT because of a lack of faith. Jesus wept because when He said that Lazarus' sickness would not end in death, no one believed Him. Jesus wept because he knew that without faith, it is impossible to please God.

Strong in Him said:
So based on this argument, my questions have been a) what about the cross? God allowed and caused that suffering, and it was entirely for the benefit of others; b) what about this world? It's still here, with all the evil that goes on in it. God is delaying the time of Jesus' return and Scripture says that this is for our benefit (our as in 'mankind') so that people may come to repentance. In the parable of the wheat and the tares the farmer allowed the two to grow together, as pulling up the tares might have otherwise damaged the wheat.

It's interesting that this whole mess goes back to Adam and Eve's choice to disobey God.

Strong in Him said:
If sickness and evil are still in the world, and God does not allow them or will them, then why doesn't he do something about it? I can only see two alternatives. 1) That the devil is in control, God has no power to do anything about it (which should mean that no one ever gets healed/saved), and in fact the devil sneaked the trial past God when he wasn't looking, so it's nothing to do with him at all.

This is a ridiculous conclusion that clearly no one here advocates. I could say I'm insulted, but luckily, I've put childish things behind me.

Strong in Him said:
or 2) That God really, really wants us all to be healed. If we are not, then, whatever we might say, it must be because deep down we want to remain sick, it's such fun after all, isn't it, and are denying him the chance to heal by holding on to sin, or whatever. In which case this boils down to "it's the sufferers fault", however devout and believing they are.

Crazy as that may sound, I know people who when you ask them if you can pray for them, they say no, because they believe that their sickness is a gift from God. That is the kind of nonsense I am talking about.

Trish1947 · Apr 13, 2006

Perhaps a new understanding of mercy and grace, Him calling us His friends, and and Jesus saying "I am the good Shepard", needs to be reviewed again. Jesus in every way showed us through His own words, and actions that He was the good Shepard. How many of us that is a friend of God, and He tells us that you are My friends, would truly trust that friend, if you knew that friend of yours, was about to pull a Job on you? What sort of friend or Good Shepard would do this? Jesus was either the exact image of the Father, or Job was the only one that knew of what He spoke. But God told him he didn't know of what He spoke.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Its not your goodness that He's asking us to abide in, it's in His goodness that He's telling us to abide in. To abide in the Good Shepard and His goodness.

JimfromOhio · Apr 13, 2006

According to the posts in this thread....

Elphazs, Bildads, and Zophars have OUTNUMBERED Jobs.

probinson · Apr 13, 2006

Trish1947 said:
if you knew that friend of yours, was about to pull a Job on you?

Pull a Job. I like that.

Look out! He's about to pull a Job!

probinson · Apr 13, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
According to the posts in this thread....

Elphazs, Bildads, and Zophars have OUTNUMBERED Jobs.

According to the posts in this theread....

The Jobs in this thread seem to have forgotten that we have an Advocate with the Father.

stone · Apr 13, 2006

I was baptised in my uncle's pentecostal church and attended the pentecostal churches every sunday for many years. Hopefully this will allow me to show you how i see this book through my eyes.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2788381-job.html

JimB · Apr 13, 2006

probinson said:
*****

probinson said:
Your statement that God may need to put a "severe virus" on you to keep you from a fatal accident is extremely limiting. God is bigger than that. I am not "insulting" you. I am stating what I view as a limiting statement from you.

*****

Pete, Only someone who would buy into the PHIA belief system would say something like that. PHIA believers have painted themselves into a very small corner by saying what God will and will not do.

So, who is it exactly that is limiting God?

The rest of your remarks really do not deserve a response, Pete. When we can talk to one another with more respect, I will be glad to discuss our differences with you.

:wave:

~Jim

JimfromOhio · Apr 13, 2006

probinson said:
According to the posts in this theread....

The Jobs in this thread seem to have forgotten that we have an Advocate with the Father.

Job had the strength, the continuity and the unwavering character of true saving faith, true love for God regardless what happened to him. Many of us have identified with him. Many of us also have identified some of our fellow Christians as Elphazs, Bildads, and Zophars. When when Christians face tribulations as Job did, what would their friends do? Biblical writers refer to Job as a real person. Ezekiel refers to Job along with Noah and Daniel (Ezekiel 14:14,20). And James draws upon the example of Job to comfort the suffering, proving the point that God is merciful. He commends the endurance of Job (Jas. 5:11). From the Book of Job, we see that God is in complete control. Satan had neither the power nor the authority to do anything without the permission of God. It was consistent with God's nature and will for him to have allowed those things to happen to Job. The Lord's point to Job, at the end of the book, is that he is the all-powerful Creator. He is the loving Sustainer. And he is the perfect Ruler. He created the Universe, and he knows how to govern it as well.

Often, Elphazs, Bildads, and Zophars have forgotten God's true Character.

Lpe04 · Apr 13, 2006

Hmmmm, where do we start.
Well for all of you claiming that this was entirely the devil's doing and had nothing to do with God's will, then I suggest you go read your Bibles right now and get some of that pride out of your life. Do I have to remind you of the flood? How about Sodom and Gomorrah? Or are you going to argue that this was the "devil's work"? And another thing is you also seem to forget the fact that Job came out BETTER in the end than in the beginning (yet you still want to claim that this was entirely of the devil and God could not do anything about it). There has only been one perfect one to walk the face of the earth and that was the Lord Jesus Christ, so even though Job may have had great outward piety toward God, I think you need to realize that it is a heart issue with God, and we all deal with it one way or another.
Did Job deal with pride, of course! Did God seek to humble him? Yes, I believe so. Did God use the devil to carry this out? Yes, that is plainly obvious from the reading. I think you have forgotten Genesis 50:20

Gen. 50:20
"You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives."

Sound a little familiar? Let's take a look at the book of Revelation where power is given unto the Beast to make war against the Saints of God (Rev. 13:7) What about the crucifixation? How about in the Millenial Kingdom where satan will be RELEASED for the sole purpose of deceiving the nations (Rev. 20:7-8)? You don't think that God allowed satan into the Garden of Eden? Or do you still think that satan is uncontrollable by our all powerful, soverign Lord of HEAVEN AND EARTH (that means everything in them!) Or do you think that it was not God preaching through the prophets Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc. of the impending destruction that the Lord would bring upon the people?

You see Job is the classic example of man's failure, sinfullness and pride supplemented by God's grace. Yes I believe God uses the devil to carry out evil (remember Gen. 50:20) because He is Light and in Him is no darkness, and everything He does is ultimatly for the good, even if our temporal minds can't see the benefit in the present but only the suffering. It's like a woman going through child bearing, all she can think of is the pain but afterward the pain is forgotten because of the gift of this beautiful baby child. Paul uses the same analogy for this present world and the suffering and says directly that it is brought on by the CREATOR and not by us.

Rom. 8:18-22
"I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the One Who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time."

And furthermore, just like Job I think we could all use a little bit of an @$$ whupping. I think you have a distorted view on what true love is. A father disciplines his son out of love just as the Lord disciplined Job.

Psalm 94:12
"Blessed is the man whom Thou discipline, O LORD, and teachest him out of Thy law;"

Job 5:17
"Blessed is the man whom God corrects; so do not despise the discipline of the Almighty."

Heb. 12:6
"because the Lord disciplines those He loves,
and He punishes everyone He accepts as a son."

So you can see from the above verses that it was a GOOD thing what the Lord did to Job and it was for the Lord's purposes and Job learned his lesson at the end, and the Lord made sure that it would stick!

Heb. 12:11
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

You see Job had to learn a little lesson from the Lord, I could go on and on about why I believe Job had some pride that needed to get out, but anyway it is obvious to see that the Lord "brought His hand" upon Job and that Job was all the better in the end for it, spiritually and finacially.

God Bless

probinson · Apr 13, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
Job had the strength, the continuity and the unwavering character of true saving faith, true love for God regardless what happened to him.

Is that right? Why did Job repent then? :scratch:

stone · Apr 13, 2006

where do you see Job repenting?

I recall he wished he had not been born, looks to me like he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time is all.

JimfromOhio · Apr 13, 2006

probinson said:
Is that right? Why did Job repent then?

You mean this? Job gets the message in chapter 42. "And Job answered the Lord and said, O, I see, I get it, You can do everything and no thought can be withheld from You and who's ever going to hide counsel without knowledge, therefore have I uttered that which I understood not, things too wonderful for me which I knew not." Job is saying: "God, I understand, You're God, You're sovereign, You can do anything. You know everything. You have all the privileges. I'm a fool for even opening my mouth, I apologize. I've been talking about things far beyond my understanding which I knew not. Too awesome for me to understand. "

Others have said similar:
Isaiah 64:3
For when you did awesome things that we did not expect, you came down, and the mountains trembled before you.

Isaiah 55:9
"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Job didn't have to repent because he didn't sinned. However He did "humbled" himself before the Lord.

Psalm 25:9
He guides the humble in what is right and teaches them his way.

Psalm 147:6
The LORD sustains the humble but casts the wicked to the ground.

Psalm 149:4
For the LORD takes delight in his people; he crowns the humble with salvation.

Jesus said in Matthew 18:4
Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Again in Matthew 23:12
For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

James 1:9
The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high position.

James 4:6
But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."

James 4:10
Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

Trish1947 · Apr 13, 2006

And at what point do we discover that the full revelation of the goodness of God was sent through His Son, Jesus Christ? In all this, we seem to be stuck on Job as the type of salvation we have received. I wonder, if Job was alive today, and had Jesus Christ, that things would have turned out differently? I believe it would have, first Jobs sins by default through Adam would have been thrown in the deepest sea by the offering and shed blood of Jesus. He would have the love of God, and the true nature of God, shed abroad in His heart by the Holy Spirit, through Jesus Christ. He would have had Jesus own words that He came to tell us things that have been hidden since the foundation of the world. Job would have realized that he was not righteous enough to save himself. Would have lost his fear, and received enough faith through the workings of Christ, not to have to make daily sacrifices, just incase his children sinned against God. Would have learned from Jesus Himself that there is an enemy to be overcome.
Would have seen that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, the very hand by which Job suffered Would have been told that "I give you power to tread on all power of the enemy, and nothing by any means shall hurt you."

I just think it would have been different for Job, If he knew and believed these things, that Jesus spoke, if Job was sitting under the ministering and teaching of Jesus Christ.

LittleRocketBoy · Apr 13, 2006

stone said:
where do you see Job repenting?

I recall he wished he had not been born, looks to me like he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time is all.

Job 42:1-6 KJV
1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
2 I know that thou canst do every [thing], and [that] no thought can be withholden from thee.
3 Who [is] he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
6 Wherefore I abhor [myself], and repent in dust and ashes.

Job; Justification for our suffering, or a tale of victory?

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