The Second Coming

Howdy Cliff2,


Greetings. There are many aspects of what will be accomplished at the return of Christ. A few aspects, concentrating on the effect upon the nations.

At his return Jesus will replace the present kingdoms of men with the kingdom of God, and this kingdom will fill the earth:
Daniel 2:35 (KJV): "Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."
Daniel 2:44 (KJV): "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."


The nations will be subdued and there will be peace in all the earth:
Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): "1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."


A remnant of the nations will worship at Jerusalem during this kingdom reign:
Zechariah 14:16 (KJV): "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

The nation of Israel will be restored and become the first dominion of the kingdom of God:
Micah 4:6-8 (KJV): "6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; 7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. 8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem."


Kind regards
Trevor

I believe that at Christ's visible and glorious return (1 Thessalonians 4:16), Christians who are dead and alive will rise to meet Him (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) and be given glorious bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-57) and will be with Him forever (John 14:1-4). Christ's return will be joyous for those who are ready (Luke 12:35-40), but will be a time of judgment on unbelievers (John 12:37-50) - which makes me very sad to think about.

After that He will create a new heavens and new earth and there God will dwell with the righteous as it was back in the beginning (Revelation 21:3).

At least that's my understanding of it.

According to The Salvation Army doctrines:
We believe in the immoratlity of the soul; in the resurrection of the body; in the general judgment at the end of the world; in the eternal happiness of the righteous; and in endless punishment of the wicked.

Before Our Lord's return, the church will have trouble. It has always been persecuted by the world, but in the last days this persecution will reach a pitch we have never seen.

There will be a visible, personal anti-christ who will be a man and himself the culmination of all those who have set themselves against Jesus and His church throughout history.

At some time (no one knows the hour), Christ will return, the dead will rise and living saints will go to meet Him in the air. He will continue to descend with these saints and the Holy Angels to make war on Anti-Christ who will be defeated. Satan will be cast into hell forever and the New Jerusalem will be established.

Believers will be clothed with incorruptibility and will live forever with Christ in His Kingdom.

I think the witness of Rev11 will prepare the way.......
I think this witness is the "Elder"...of Daniel 7, 9.

I think this witness will be a vice-Christ.......

Here's a good, short, succinct explanation of the Catholic view complete with all the Scriptures used:

The Parousia: Christ's Second Coming

I have a pre-tribulational view of the Second Coming.

Lynn73 said:

I have a pre-tribulational view of the Second Coming.

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Wouldn't that be the one-and-a-halfth coming?

Or is He coming three times?

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

I believe that Scripture reveals that the Second Coming has two phases, the Rapture and the Revelation. 1 Thess 4 describes a meeting in the air. Revelation describes Christ coming all the way back to earth and every eye shall see Him. I also see Scriptures indicating He will remove His church before this tribulation. All these end times events take time. I happen to believe the pretrib rapture, then seven year trib, and the visible second coming best fit Scripture. But, of course, opinions vary on this subject.

Cliff2 said:

I am wondering if it would be possible for us to state what we believe as to the "Second Coming"

Not trying to change one anothers point of view but just stating what each understand the Second Coming" to be.

The reason I ask is to show that as Protestants we have collectively many different points of view about it.

I do not in any way want to exclude RC's or Orthodox from stating their understanding of what the "Second Coming" is about.

I believe everyone is more than welcome to participate in this thread.

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I don't know about the Orthodox but I do know that Catholics can have almost just as many different points of view on eschatology as Protestants. Some Catholics are Preterists, some are just partial Preterists while others totally dismiss Preterism altogether. Some believe in a rapture of the Church while others totally dismiss it. Some believe we're living in the last days while others totally dismiss the thought.

As for me, being a Protestant, believe we have been living in the last days for almost 2,000 years but I also believe that our present generation will be the last generation in these last days. There's just too many evidence's happening today to dismiss. I do believe in a rapture of the Church but I don't believe in the common point of view of when it will happen. I believe the rapture happens during Jesus's second coming. It's sometimes referred to as the "pre-wrath" belief.

As Jesus is in the atmosphere coming back to earth the rapture will take place. Once the rapture happens, which is only going to take the time of a blick of the eyes, Jesus and His Church will descend upon earth, Jesus's foe's will be defeated and Jesus will then set up His 1,000 year Kingdom on earth.

I'm with Lynn73 - I'm ready with plenty of oil for my lamp!

nephilimiyr said:

I don't know about the Orthodox but I do know that Catholics can have almost just as many different points of view on eschatology as Protestants. Some Catholics are Preterists, some are just partial Preterists while others totally dismiss Preterism altogether. Some believe in a rapture of the Church while others totally dismiss it. Some believe we're living in the last days while others totally dismiss the thought.

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The Magestrium however is clear that there is no pre-trib Rapture and or literal earthly millenium rule. If people want to dissent from that, it's their business. The rest of the details, however, people can believe whatever they want.

Cliff2 said:

As I said at the start that I was not trying to change your point of view. just trying to understand the different views on the Second Coming.

My question is this.

Is the link you provided official RCC teaching?

Thanks for your participation.

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I posted that instead of the Catechism because it lays out the Scriptures nicely. Here is the Catechism:


I. HE WILL COME AGAIN IN GLORY
Christ already reigns through the Church. . .
668 "Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living."548 Christ's Ascension into heaven signifies his participation, in his humanity, in God's power and authority. Jesus Christ is Lord: he possesses all power in heaven and on earth. He is "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion", for the Father "has put all things under his feet."549 Christ is Lord of the cosmos and of history. In him human history and indeed all creation are "set forth" and transcendently fulfilled.550
669 As Lord, Christ is also head of the Church, which is his Body.551 Taken up to heaven and glorified after he had thus fully accomplished his mission, Christ dwells on earth in his Church. The redemption is the source of the authority that Christ, by virtue of the Holy Spirit, exercises over the Church. "The kingdom of Christ [is] already present in mystery", "on earth, the seed and the beginning of the kingdom".552
670 Since the Ascension God's plan has entered into its fulfillment. We are already at "the last hour".553 "Already the final age of the world is with us, and the renewal of the world is irrevocably under way; it is even now anticipated in a certain real way, for the Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real but imperfect."554 Christ's kingdom already manifests its presence through the miraculous signs that attend its proclamation by the Church.555

. . .until all things are subjected to him
671 Though already present in his Church, Christ's reign is nevertheless yet to be fulfilled "with power and great glory" by the King's return to earth.556 This reign is still under attack by the evil powers, even though they have been defeated definitively by Christ's Passover.557 Until everything is subject to him, "until there be realized new heavens and a new earth in which justice dwells, the pilgrim Church, in her sacraments and institutions, which belong to this present age, carries the mark of this world which will pass, and she herself takes her place among the creatures which groan and travail yet and await the revelation of the sons of God."558 That is why Christians pray, above all in the Eucharist, to hasten Christ's return by saying to him:559 Marana tha! "Our Lord, come!"560

672 Before his Ascension Christ affirmed that the hour had not yet come for the glorious establishment of the messianic kingdom awaited by Israel561 which, according to the prophets, was to bring all men the definitive order of justice, love and peace.562 According to the Lord, the present time is the time of the Spirit and of witness, but also a time still marked by "distress" and the trial of evil which does not spare the Church563 and ushers in the struggles of the last days. It is a time of waiting and watching.564

The glorious advent of Christ, the hope of Israel
673 Since the Ascension Christ's coming in glory has been imminent,565 even though "it is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority."566. This eschatological coming could be accomplished at any moment, even if both it and the final trial that will precede it are "delayed".567
674 The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus.568 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."569 St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"570 The "full inclusion" of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of "the full number of the Gentiles",571 will enable the People of God to achieve "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ", in which "God may be all in all".572


The Church's ultimate trial
675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.573 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth574 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.575

[SIZE=-1]676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,576 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.577[/SIZE]

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.578 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.579 God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.580

II. TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD
678 Following in the steps of the prophets and John the Baptist, Jesus announced the judgment of the Last Day in his preaching.581 Then will the conduct of each one and the secrets of hearts be brought to light.582 Then will the culpable unbelief that counted the offer of God's grace as nothing be condemned.583 Our attitude to our neighbor will disclose acceptance or refusal of grace and divine love.584 On the Last Day Jesus will say: "Truly I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."585
679 Christ is Lord of eternal life. Full right to pass definitive judgment on the works and hearts of men belongs to him as redeemer of the world. He "acquired" this right by his cross. The Father has given "all judgment to the Son".586 Yet the Son did not come to judge, but to save and to give the life he has in himself.587 By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one's works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love.588


IN BRIEF
680 Christ the Lord already reigns through the Church, but all the things of this world are not yet subjected to him. The triumph of Christ's kingdom will not come about without one last assault by the powers of evil.

681 On Judgment Day at the end of the world, Christ will come in glory to achieve the definitive triumph of good over evil which, like the wheat and the tares, have grown up together in the course of history. 682 When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace.

548 Rom 14:9.
549 Eph 1:20-22.
550 Eph 1:10; cf. 4:10; 1 Cor 15:24, 27-28.
551 Cf. Eph 1:22.
552 LG 3; 5; cf. Eph 4:11-13.
553 I Jn 2:18; cf. I Pt 4:7.
554 LG 48 # 3; cf. I Cor 10:11.
555 Cf. Mk 16:17-18, 20.
556 Lk 21:27; cf. Mt 25:31.
557 Cf. 2 Th 2:7.
558 LG 48 # 3; cf. 2 Pt 3:13; Rom 8:19-22; I Cor 15:28.
559 Cf. I Cor 11:26; 2 Pt 3:11-12.
560 1 Cor 16:22; Rev 22:17,20.
561 Cf. Acts 1:6-7.
562 Cf. Is 11:1-9.
563 Cf. Acts 1:8; I Cor 7:26; Eph 5:16; I Pt 4:17.
564 Cf. Mt 25:1, 13; Mk 13:33-37; I Jn 2:18; 4:3; I Tim 4:1.
565 Cf. Rev 22:20.
566 Acts 1:7; Cf. Mk 13:32.
567 Cf. Mt 24:44; I Th 5:2; 2 Th 2:3-12.
568 Rom I 1:20-26; cf. Mt 23:39.
569 Acts 3:19-21.
570 Rom 11:15.
571 Rom 11:12, 25; cf. Lk 21:24.
572 Eph 4:13; I Cor 15:28.

573 Cf. Lk 18:8; Mt 24:12.
574 Cf. Lk 21:12; Jn 15:19-20.
575 Cf. 2 Th 2:4-12; I Th 5:2-3; 2 Jn 7; I Jn 2:1 8, 22.
576 Cf. DS 3839.
577 Pius XI, Divini Redemptoris, condemning the "false mysticism" of this "counterfeit of the redemption of the lowly"; cf. GS 20-21.
578 Cf. Rev 19:1-9.
579 Cf Rev 13:8; 20:7-10; 21:2-4.
580 Cf. Rev 20:12 2 Pt 3:12-13.
581 Cf. Dan 7:10; Joel 3-4; Mal 3: 19; Mt 3:7-12.
582 Cf Mk 12:38-40; Lk 12:1-3; Jn 3:20-21; Rom 2:16; I Cor 4:5.
583 Cf. Mt 11:20-24; 12:41-42.
584 Cf. Mt 5:22; 7:1-5.
585 Mt 25:40.
586 Jn 5:22; cf. 5:27; Mt 25:31; Acts 10:42; 17:31; 2 Tim 4:1.
587 Cf. Lk 21:12; Jn 15:19-20.
588 Cf. Jn 3:17; 5:26. 588 Cf. Jn 3:18; 12:48; Mt 12:32; I Cor 3:12-15; Heb 6:4-6; 10:26-31.

nephilimiyr said:

As Jesus is in the atmosphere coming back to earth the rapture will take place. Once the rapture happens, which is only going to take the time of a blick of the eyes, Jesus and His Church will descend upon earth, Jesus's foe's will be defeated and Jesus will then set up His 1,000 year Kingdom on earth.

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I've heard that described as the "yo yo" theory. We go up then right back down. I think we go up and meet Him in the air and he takes us back to heaven while the tribulation is going on on earth. It's possible the judgment seat of Christ could be happening in heaven simultaneousnly as the tribulation is on earth. Then at the end of the tribulation we come back with Him to the earth, clothed in white linen fine and clean. Then He'll do whatever needs to be done and set up His 1,000 kingdom on earth. Exactly when the Marriage supper occurs, I'm unsure but I don't believe we rise up and then bob right back down, he takes us to heaven for seven years, then we return with him and every eye shall see Him...and us. The Rapture is a secret meeting in the air, the Revelation is just that..a revealing of Himself to the whole earth. That's my theory anyhow. Doesn't really matter, He's coming back!

QuantaCura said:

The Magestrium however is clear that there is no pre-trib Rapture and or literal earthly millenium rule. If people want to dissent from that, it's their business. The rest of the details, however, people can believe whatever they want.

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I won't argue with what the Church says but that doesn't take away from the fact that Catholics have a mind of there own and they do have differring opinions on this. So I guess we are more or less in agreement actually.

Lynn73 said:

've heard that described as the "yo yo" theory. We go up then right back down. I think we go up and meet Him in the air and he takes us back to heaven while the tribulation is going on on earth. It's possible the judgment seat of Christ could be happening in heaven simultaneousnly as the tribulation is on earth. Then at the end of the tribulation we come back with Him to the earth, clothed in white linen fine and clean. Then He'll do whatever needs to be done and set up His 1,000 kingdom on earth. Exactly when the Marriage supper occurs, I'm unsure but I don't believe we rise up and then bob right back down, he takes us to heaven for seven years, then we return with him and every eye shall see Him...and us. The Rapture is a secret meeting in the air, the Revelation is just that..a revealing of Himself to the whole earth. That's my theory anyhow. Doesn't really matter, He's coming back!

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"yo-yo" theory? Never heard that before but I suppose it does describe the theory about right. Yet you have to understand the reason for the Church "bobing up" first. The reason is because that is the time for God's wrath and His wrath isn't for the Church but for the ungodly. I don't believe the whole scenario in the Book of Revelations is God's wrath where it sounds like you pretty much do. I believe God's wrath in makeing the earth pretty much a wasteland is a one day event.

Either way, it doesn't matter much what we all think does it? We, or you and I, believe He's coming back and that we both can rejoice in!

nephilimiyr said:

I won't argue with what the Church says but that doesn't take away from the fact that Catholics have a mind of there own and they do have differring opinions on this. So I guess we are more or less in agreement actually.

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Yeah, at least in America where I am the end times are not focused on too much at Mass besides that we always need to be prepared.

The very vocal end times crowd are the "Left Behind" type Christians and so many Catholics without much knowledge of this subject hear it all over the place and just assume we believe it too.