X-Baptist here 4 questions

Hagios17 · Apr 7, 2006

<<Sword-in-Hand>>

I agree that not all members of churches are saved, but the message of Christ--the most important knowledge is preached to everyone. There's no withholding of that. The church is the body of believers, not a building. Membership means nothing, but I believe God desires us to seek a church to become a part of, simply for the fact being around other believers gives us strength and accountability.

“What secret knowledge?” Membership (signing of a contract… I don’t recall signing any papers when Jesus Christ saved me, but anyway&#8230

restricts a Christian’s capability of making things happen. So in order to gain more capability / flexibility, one MUST achieve this higher rank (as in Freemasonry, Mormonism, witchcraft, etc.), in order to gain this extra knowledge on the matters of the church. Now I am dead against this inner core teaching because it assumes a sort of Gnostic position… acquire the extra secret ***-bit. I am not interested in these foolish games pastors play. I just want to hear the Gospel! “I agree that not all members of churches are saved, but the message of Christ--the most important knowledge is preached to everyone.” So many churches have fallen into the snares of the devil because they pay little attention to the little changes made by the inner core (members), which whether we like it or not make a huge! Impact on the Gospel preached to everyone. “The church is the body of believers, not a building.” If the church is a body of believers than why go to a Temple every Sunday morning? Why not break bread with a friend, or study the Logos? But this might be something you do, hey? “Membership means nothing, but I believe God desires us to seek a church to become a part of, simply for the fact being around other believers gives us strength and accountability.” “The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation.” (Psalms 118:14)

“If you find a church that preaches the Gospel according to Rick Warren, run away from it. As for the man personally, don't know much about him, have not read his books, nor ever been to a church where they teach anything he's written.” Please read the articles I have linked to this post, as I would hate for you to read Rick Warren’s book with one eye closed.

”I'm like everyone else and I cringe when pastor's preach on money, but look in Acts. Paul said it is up to us to support our preachers and we should support them. Our money is for the up building of God's kingdom not to line anyone's pockets. Give as God asks and let Him take care of those you give it to. In the book of Micah it speaks largely about tithing and I still believe it holds true to this day.” You have established a valid point… let us hope people don’t abuse the divine infallible doctrine of tithing

“What's wrong with water baptism?” It is the interpretation that is wrong.

“Acts--repent and be baptised” How do you know that this isn’t Spiritual Baptism talked of?

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38)

“Jesus was baptised, was He not?” Jesus was God. Jesus was baptised in water with intent to keep the law, unlike any other person who as ever lived and who will ever live.

”Any time you get into an "ism" there's bound to be trouble. The great thing about the Bible is that we all have access to it. Should you hear a pastor preach on a subject you don't agree with, then study it for yourself and see what the Word has to say. “Isms” need booted out of the church.” Not all Isms are bad, like Calvinism for instance.

”Another "ism". Legalism in the church stinks, and I promise it's not only in the Baptist church, as are none of the questions you've asked. It's world wide in all churches, no matter the denomination and that's very sad. Like someone said, there are no perfect churches, cause if they were, they wouldn't be on earth.” A legalistic attitude stinks in my opinion. And yes there is no perfect Temple on earth.

”Glad you asked the questions. Hoped this helped in some way.” Thanks brother

****e Lord’s Envoy>>

”Hey Josh,

This is a false view of the Baptist Church. As much as I would desire this to be true, the sad fact is that not all Baptists are true Christians.” Amen… The reason I think that the churches weaken as they age, is because when the Lord returns he is not going to be looking for a perfect denomination, but all those born of him.

[Quote]
Church membership (The secret knowledge is only obtained by a member... sounds like Gnosticism),

”This is a false view also. What secret knowledge? The benefits of being a member of a local church body means that you bring yourself under the authority of the church so that they may help keep you accountible. Its a dedication to a local body being unified. When I joined my church I was imparted no secrets.” Quoted: “Membership (signing of a contract… I don’t recall signing any papers when Jesus Christ saved me, but anyway) restricts a Christian’s capability of making things happen. So in order to gain more capability / flexibility, one MUST achieve this higher rank (as in Freemasonry, Mormonism, witchcraft, etc.), in order to gain this extra knowledge on the matters of the church. Now I am dead against this inner core teaching because it assumes a sort of Gnostic position… acquire the extra secret ***-bit. I am not interested in these foolish games pastors play. I just want to hear the Gospel!”

[Quote] Wrick Warren (Bases theories on Paganism), [Quote]

”Rick Warren. I've read one thing by Rick Warren and I failed to see what your saying here. Ive not heard anything like this from any group but if this is so, could you document this?” You’re going to have to try a little harder than that. A lie is often candy coated you know?

Please read the articles I have linked to this post.

”The Bible says that the church is to support its ministers and the churches ministries. Money doesnt grow on trees and so we tithe. Show me a text where it says the minister is not to be supported by his flock and I will concede. If money is the root of all evil why do you use it? Or when the sin of rape occurs, where is the monetary motivation? Rather the Greek text says that "money is a root of many evils." Money used is meant to be used in a godly way and is not to consume one's life. Greed is evil.“
I think you are mistaken when you say, “ …money is the root of all evil…” as it says in the scriptures that the love of money is the root of all evil.

[Quote] Water Baptism (Should I get circumsised too?), [Quote]

”If you want to.” Lol… I’ll never get circumcised “ But Baptism and Circumcision are different. Circumcision was ascribed to all Jews indiscriminately and was a sign and seal of covenant membership, whereas baptism is applied to believer's only. Jesus commanded it in Matthew 28:18-20. It is symbolic and does not cause ones salvation.”

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Matthew 28:18-20)

How do you know this verse is talking about water baptism?
”This (referring to Arminianism) has been a debate in many churches.” It certainly has been. “Most baptist churches I have encountered are more calvinistic.” This is true

[Quote]
Legalism (strict adherence to the law??? "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." (1 Corinthians 6:12 ) ) [Quote]

I don't remember the last sermon that commanded me to offer sacrifice or to abstain from various foods or gentiles? So, I do not know how you are able to blanket the entire baptist church as being legalistic. What is meant by strict adherence to the Law is not merely the offering of sacrifices and abstaining from certain foods, but an attitude in attempting to keep the whole of the law mentioned in the Old Testament, (i.e. the ten commandments which where for the Nation Israel, and not the gentiles or Christians). And my point is that there are many Christians who are of the idea that they must keep the Law of the Old Testament like Jesus Christ in order to receive salvation. The way one looks at belief in God can be taken in a legalistic way that is if you believe in the works doctrine of the flesh.

[Quote] Awaiting many Baptist replies

P.S. I hope I don't sound too antagonistic, as I just would like to talk about these things that I'm not aloud to talk about elsewhere[Quote]

“Please reply to the Baptist responses. We would hate for you not to be Baptist because of false opinions. I think you would find much solidarity in the replies you get to these questions.” I really loved my old Baptist church. It was amazing, but I now that the Lord has seated me in heavenly places And don’t bother about the Baptist label… just be comforted with the fact that I am a genuine brother saved by His undeserving favour.

Hagios17 / Qadowsh17 / Saint17 (One who is… Hebrews 10:14 )

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“Amen. "Heb 10:17 then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more." It is by God's grace. Christ is my righteousness.” You are the first to comment on that, and praise be to the Almighty for such a sturdy comment

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Hagios17 · Apr 7, 2006

For some reason this forum check has sensoured "The" in "The Lord's envoy" ... Strange

Hagios17 · Apr 7, 2006

<<Dondi>>

I see most other replies are going to line up with my own. But just to show you that you have some misconceptions about being a Baptist, here is my take: Yes. Ive been very busy lately.

Church Membership: The church is made up of a body of believers. In our local independant baptist church there are two qualifications for church membership: 1) One must be born again (saved). As I have said, the church is a body of believers. 2) One must be baptized. We believe baptism united us as a local congregation...we are all baptized into one Body...the body of Christ. Baptism does not save, but it identifies us publically with Christ as prefigures our death, burial, and resurrection with Him. So water baptism becomes a sort of initiation into the church, hey? I am foreign to this teaching Show me where in the scriptures that water baptism is talked of in this way please?

Rick Warren: Irrelevant to anything having to to with being a Baptist. He does not speak for Baptists at large. Maybe in his particular church, but he is not of any consequence to my church. Rick Warrens message is spread throughout the church, but I am pleased that his teachings have not infected your church. Please read the articles I have linked to this post.

Tithing: In the Old Testament, tithes were what was paid to the Levitical priesthood. Since the tribe of Levi was not apportioned a section of land, they were given tithes as their inheritance. Levis had to live throughout Israel so that they could minister to the other tribes in the priestly duties as ordained by God.

We as Christians adopt the concept of tithing because it is a way to support our pastor and support the administration of our church. A tithe is 10% of one's income. Most pastors are in the ministry full time and thus need to feed their families. They are essentially like the Levitical priests, in need of support from the congregation. The church also incurrs maintenance costs: electricity, water, etc.

Offerings: These are different from tithes. While members are expected (but nothing is actually a requirement for membership, we give out of our duty to God), offerings are what is given beyond our tithes, given out of our excess as God leads a person to give. There are other ministries that are supported by offerings such as missions, building fund (mostly for new buildings or additions), and charitable giving. Are you a Levite?

Water Baptism: See my remarks in Church Membership.

Arminianism: If what you mean that we have a freewill to come to God for salvation, this is what my church teaches. My church is not Calvinist and believe that salvation is available to all, though not all are willling to seek it. We also believe that once a person is saved, they are "sealed" in the Spirit (Ephes. 1:13) and cannot lose their salvation (John 10:28-29).

The following is a Quote from Jeremiahprojest:

Arminianism

Coming from humanistic Pelagianism instead of from the Scriptures, Arminianism bases salvation upon the will of fallen man. It is anti-sovereignty, anti-security, anti-dispensational, anti-grace, pro-works religion. The teaching is that God, through redemption, bestows a 'common grace' upon all men, thereby making it possible for the individual to exercise his free will either for, or against God. Its maxim is, "It is mine to be willing to believe, and it is the part of God's grace to assist."
Thus the sinner's choice of God, and not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate factor in salvation. Those elected by God are chosen only in the sense that He foresaw their faith and good works--which arise from themselves and are not wrought of God. The human will is exalted to the place of sovereignty and, according to this system, man is his own saviour.
In that the Arminian begins on the premise of his own free will, his end is on the same assumption. He feels that since he can come in, he can therefore go out, by his free will. What little assurance of salvation he has is founded upon his own momentary merit, plus whatever emotional experiences he can muster along the way. "After I accepted Jesus I wasn't sure if I was really saved; but when I had my 'baptism in the Holy Ghost,' and spoke in tongues, then I was sure." Consequently the Arminian's existence is experienced-based, only to be beset by fears, uncertainties, backslidings, and failure.
Unconditional eternal security grounded upon the fact of the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ is utterly rejected by the Arminian. He sedulously avoids all portions of the Bible that establish eternal security, or at best seeks to discredit and deny them. He gravitates to out-of-context verses that seem to him to militate against the truth of "once saved, always saved." (Miles J. Stanford, Tri-13 - Arminius, to Calvin, to Paul, Lakewood: Christian Correspondence, 1983.)

Legalism: "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." - I Cor. 6:12

This is not legalism. This is exercising restraint in our freedom in Christ. We are not bound by the Law, but led by the Spirit. But in our freedom there are things that are not beneficial to us as we grow in the Lord. Our pastor stresses clean living and modesty. Girls should not be wearing anything like low-cut dresses or high skirts that will cause a brother to fall or mentally sin. Likewise, guys should not go around without a shirt on when working around the church on a hot day, lest the sisters get tripped up. this is not a written rule, but principles we should take in consideration for our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Other things such as the types of movies, TV shows, and music may be hinder our Christian walk. The principle is found in Phillipians 4:8: You have not quoted what I have said about Legalism properly: Legalism (strict adherence to the law??? "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." (1 Corinthians 6:12 ) )

What you have said about your pastor conditioning you guys to act a certain way so that people wont sin doesnt change the fact that all who are under the blood of Jesus Christ are free from the Law that restrains them from doing evil. But does this mean that we should sin because we are no longer under the law, but grace God forbid, as Paul states:

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.(Romans 6:15-23)

"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

I hope this clears up concerns you have about being a Baptist. We're as bad as you think. Sinners, yes. But saved by grace, thank God! What do you mean when you say Saved by grace?

Hagios17 · Apr 7, 2006

<<Ramdar_Gaftar>>

Church membership (The secret knowledge is only obtained by a member... sounds like Gnosticism),

I have never seen this before when did salvation become about membership Read my replies to the others on church membership.

I would like to know where you are getting your info Well about 20 years ago the discipleship movement came to inhabit my fathers church. His previous wife wept to hear the pastor say, And if you dont like this new teaching, then you can go to the church down the road. as she had been in that church since a child, and was shocked at the deception that swept over her church like an avalanche. But the whole concept of church membership, whether one likes or not has a Gnostic flavour to it.

Warren (Bases theories on Paganism

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),

huh? again where did you get this

Let me further elaborate myself. Rick Warrens theology is rooted in Pagan ideas, i.e. Pelagianism, etc.

Please read the articles I have linked to this post on Rick Warren.

[Quote] Tithing
(Why on earth are Baptists preaching about money. Didn't they know that the love of money is the root of all evil. And that is no secret.), [Quote]

How else can we keep our building up and our pastors paid they need money too. Plus God requires 10% from us. Money is useful, but should not be given so much attention to, as to the extent of modernising an Old Testament Levite principle.

[Quote] Water Baptism

(Should I get circumsised too?), [Quote]

Jesus was Water baptized he even required it for his disciples and the Apostles baptized new converts. Where in the Scriptures is the teaching of water baptism clearly established for us Christians?

[Quote] Arminianism

(Merging of Semi-pelagianism and the Bible: Its maxim: "It is mine to be willing to believe, and it is the part of God's grace to assist."), [Quote]

again Huh? where do you get your info You obviously dont know what Arminianism is read what I posted to Dondi.

[Quote] Legalism

(strict adherence to the law??? "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." (1 Corinthians 6:12 ) ) [Quote]

We should all try our best to follow the law. We dont believe that it is required but it is very good to do. Why must I try following the law when I am free from the law?

I am sorry that you have gotten all this info Im not and the church that you used to go to that was baptist obviously wasnt really baptist in my opinion I think it was just a Baptist church gone astray.

Yours truly,

Hagios17

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tulc · Apr 7, 2006

I'm kind of having a hard time with the whole "I'm contending for the faith" mind set. The problem to me is when we should be sharing the Gospel with the lost we seem to spend more time smaking each other over percieved errors then just being someone who follows Jesus. You don't like Rick Warren, fine don't read him. See how easy that was?

When did we become more interested in measuring each other with our [shadow=green]"Spiritual Yardsticks"[/shadow] (tm)? to see who's a [shadow=red]TRUE CHRISTAN[/shadow] (tm)
I'm reminded of a quote:

"When the natural weakness and imperfection of human understanding is
considered, with the unavoidable influences of education, custom, books and
company, upon our ways of thinking, I imagine a man must have a good deal of
vanity who believes, and a good deal of boldness who affirms, that all the
doctrines he holds, are true, and all he rejects are false."
-Benjamin Franklin

tulc(did the exact same thing when he was younger!) :sigh:

Dondi · Apr 7, 2006

I could respond thoroughly to the Hagio's comments to my post. But I'm not going to. I had thought that he was honestly confused about what the Baptists believe so when I wrote my post, it was informative, not argumentative. Had I know that this was a set up for a debate, then I probably wouldn't have written my post in the first place.

I'm perfectly fine with what my Bapist church teaches. If you don't like my Baptist church, or ant Baptist church, fine. Stay away. But don't go blasting away with what we believe just because it doesn't agree with your intepretation. Nothing we do amounts to any grave heresy that you might perceive. So bug off!

tulc · Apr 7, 2006

So water baptism becomes a sort of initiation into the church, hey? I am foreign to this teaching… Show me where in the scriptures that water baptism is talked of in this way please?

Phillip with the Ethiopian eunich, Phillip shares the gospel, then the first water they get to, "Bang" he's in the water.

tulc(how was that?)

Phileoeklogos · Apr 7, 2006

I don't think Hagios wants to get answers or be confused by the facts, he already has his mind made up, he has his own definition of the truth, and I doubt we can change his mind, so Hagios just be careful how small you draw the circle of the true faith, pretty soon you find you are the only one left standing in it, and you'll have to stand on one foot.

tulc · Apr 7, 2006

So water baptism becomes a sort of initiation into the church, hey? I am foreign to this teaching… Show me where in the scriptures that water baptism is talked of in this way please?

Found another one!

Acts 10: 44-48 said:
44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

See a pattern here? Preach, get saved, into the water you go!

tulc(

)

Hagios17 · Apr 13, 2006

<<tulc>>

I'm kind of having a hard time with the whole "I'm contending for the faith" mind set.

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (Jude 1:3)

Notice: and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith And I will contend for the faith which: was once delivered unto the saints.

The problem to me is when we should be sharing the Gospel with the lost we seem to spend more time smaking each other over percieved errors then just being someone who follows Jesus.

Contending for the faith is not: smacking each other over perceived errors, but smacking the perceived errors.

What is the Gospel? Do you really think the Gospel is relative to all Christians?

Just because Christian Theologies have similar words and phrases, doesnt mean that their doctrine is the same. For example: Arminianism teaches a work-based doctrine (works produced from mans will, supposedly good-evil or good) and therefore relies on a grace (merited favour) that doesnt save, whereas Calvinism teaches a faith-based doctrine (faith is not a work produced by mans corrupt and evil will, but by God, as it is a gift by grace) and therefore relies on a grace (unmerited favour) that saves. Arminianism focuses on mans supposed free-will (mans will cannot be free if it is the servant of sin), whereas Calvinism focuses on Gods divine sovereignty (that he wills for everything, being omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient having predestinated all things according to his will, especially humans to either salvation or damnation). Not all Christian theologies are the same, but Im sure the New Ecumenical movement would have you believe that (The New Ecumenical Movement is trying to achieve a unification on doctrine, that they all really mean the same thing). So when an Arminianist and Calvinist-based Christian go out to preach about the Gospel, they are in fact preaching two apposing Gospels. And only one of these doctrines can be logically right: A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. (James 1:8)

Principal of Logic (The either or Logic, as apposed to the this and that logic (both and logic))

But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. (Matthew 5:37)

The Logic of Either this or that is clearly illustrated in this verse: Yea, yea; Nay, nay. In simpler terms: either yes or no.

In logic, the law of non-contradiction judges as false any proposition (P) asserting that both proposition (Q) and its denial, proposition (not-Q), are true at the same time and in the same respect. Hence the either or logic.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
(Galatians 1:8-9)

And for this reason I will contend for the faith, as I am not ashamed of the Gospel to the extent that I wont argue it

What religion stops a thinking mind?

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

You don't like Rick Warren, No! You make it seam personal. Its not that I dont like him, its that I dont like his doctrine. fine don't read him. What religion stops a thinking mind? How will I truly know what he teaches without reading his book? Besides reading his book will be good practice for spotting out heresies

See how easy that was? What? Not using a brain

? When did we become more interested in measuring each other with our "Spiritual Yardsticks" I am not measuring myself against you, but the doctrine from Gods revealed Logos your doctrine. And if I be in error in the doctrine I have learnt, then I sincerely pray that your instruction be wise and not foolish. (tm)? to see who's a TRUE CHRISTAN (tm) And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. (Galatians 2:4-5) Notice: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour I, like Paul the Apostle think it is quite important to see who the TRUE CHRISTIANS are.

I'm reminded of a quote:

"When the natural weakness and imperfection of human understanding is

considered, with the unavoidable influences of education, custom, books and

company, upon our ways of thinking, I imagine a man must have a good deal of

vanity who believes, and a good deal of boldness who affirms, that all the

doctrines he holds, are true, and all he rejects are false."
-Benjamin Franklin

Mmm Interesting You quote from the Deist Ill quote from the Logos:

"Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's Lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist." --Benjamin Franklin

Deist: One who believes in God based on reason and nature and denies the scriptures as the revelation of God. (Might I add finished revelation of God?) A Deist is not a Christian, but one who is lost in the vain philosophies of man.
tulc(did the exact same thing when he was younger!)

1. Contended for the faith I like this one?
2. Smacked people over doctrine I prefer to smack the doctrine

?
3. Boasted about your spirituality My will is by nature corrupt evil to the core. How can I boast of a evil will, but rather a perfect will like Gods??

<<DONDI>>

I could respond thoroughly to the Hagio's comments to my post. But I'm not going to. I had thought that he was honestly confused about what the Baptists believe so when I wrote my post, it was informative, not argumentative. Had I know that this was a set up for a debate, then I probably wouldn't have written my post in the first place. Yes I intended to debate, but I thought that Christians would find that obvious.

I'm perfectly fine with what my Bapist church teaches. Is God fine as well? What religion stops a thinking mind? If you don't like my Baptist church, I dont even know your Baptist church, and if I were to dislike it would be the doctrine. or any Baptist church, fine. Stay away. But don't go blasting away with what we believe just because it doesn't agree with your interpretation.
So you dont contend for the faith either?

Nothing we do amounts to any grave heresy

Are you 100% sure?

So bug off!

When people are rude to me or insult me, the following comes to mind:

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

(Proverbs 12:15)

A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.

(Proverbs 14:16)

As snow in summer, and as rain in harvest, so honour is not seemly for a fool.
(Proverbs 26:1)

<<tulc>>

So water baptism becomes a sort of initiation into the church, hey? I am foreign to this teaching Show me where in the scriptures that water baptism is talked of in this way please?

Phillip with the Ethiopian eunuch, Phillip shares the gospel, then the first water they get to, "Bang" he's in the water.
tulc(how was that?)

And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea. (Acts 8:26-40)

This passage does not stipulate a Ceremonial Water Baptism into the body of Christ as for salvation.

I guess I am at fault for starting a conversation about the Ceremonial Water Baptism, as I havent given deep study into the Logos for this subject yet. My knowledge is limited in this area, but I would love to give you a link to some other brothers study on Baptisms I must warn you that his study is quite involved and might cause you to think What religion stops a thinking mind?

Click to expand...

Hagios17 · Apr 13, 2006

<<PHILEOEKLOGOS>>
I don't think Hagios wants to get answers or be confused by the facts, What facts? he already has his mind made up, he has his own definition of the truth, and I doubt we can change his mind, Wouldnt it be better to pray that the Lord changes my mind? so Hagios just be careful how small you draw the circle of the true faith, There is no exception to what the faith is. There is only one true faith. pretty soon you find you are the only one left standing in it, and you'll have to stand on one foot. So me saying that salvation is utterly credited to God is standing on one foot, hey? How many feet are you standing on?

<<tulc>>

So water baptism becomes a sort of initiation into the church, hey? I am foreign to this teaching Show me where in the scriptures that water baptism is talked of in this way please?

Found another one!
44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
See a pattern here? Preach, get saved, into the water you go!
tulc( )

Aaah So you dont believe H2O saves Did you know that the malefactor that was crucified next to Jesus was promised salvation even though he had not been baptised into H2O Or was Jesus a liar:-(

Now I am urged to give you the link evem more.

Hagios17

Click to expand...

DeaconDean · Apr 13, 2006

Hagios17 said:
Hi all
My name is Josh. And I used to be Baptist, until I realised not all Baptists are going to heaven … along with many other contrabutions, such as:

Church membership (The secret knowledge is only obtained by a member... sounds like Gnosticism),

I joined the Baptist church because I believed that they taught just as the Bible said. And what secret knowledge?

Wrick

Warren (Bases theories on Paganism ),

I have no use for Rick Warren. You shouldn't judge all by one. What if all people judged Christians by the actions of the P.T.L.'s pastor Jim Baker. Or Jimmy Swagartt?

Tithing

(Why on earth are Baptists preaching about money. Didn't they know that the love of money is the root of all evil. And that is no secret.),

Where is thithing prohibited? Remember the widows mite? She was giving to the church treasury.

Water Baptism (

Should I get circumsised too?),

Jesus is our example, since he was baptized in water, should not we?

Arminianism

(Merging of Semi-pelagianism and the Bible: Its maxim: "It is mine to be willing to believe, and it is the part of God's grace to assist."),

Contrary to popular belief, many, many Baptist do not subscribe to these beliefs. Monergism is what we adhere to.

Legalism

(strict adherence to the law??? "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." (1 Corinthians 6:12 ) )

Gal. 3:22-29 tells me that the law was put there to define what sin was, but when we come to faith in the Savior, we are no longer bound to the law.

What are your opinions on these I have just mentioned?

Awaiting many Baptist replies

P.S. I hope I don't sound too antagonistic, as I just would like to talk about these things that I'm not aloud to talk about elsewhere

Hagios17 / Qadowsh17 / Saint17 (One who is… Hebrews 10:14 )

From one Baptist.

Phileoeklogos · Apr 13, 2006

Well first lets start with a quote;

"I don't want to sound too antagonistic"

Oh really, could have fooled everyone here. You came here with some ill informed idea of what Baptists believe and try to paint everyone with a broad brush, your so called "questions" are for what purpose?

You have invented a "Baptist" that only exists in your mind, and it doesn't even make a good strawman.

In the future, before you refute or debate anyone on their beliefs, make sure you know what they really believe and the issues that are involved, I don't think that you have demonstrated either. (Just for example, You may want to take a look at your defintion of Arminianism, their are some easily spotted errors in it)

You seem to be some type of a calvinistic, charismatic, possibly hyper dispensational fellow with some strange ideas on what Baptists believe, possibly formed by your experiences in some wacked out Baptist church somewhere, honestly I don't know where on this forum you wouldn't find fault with what people here belive.

I've run into Lone Ranger Christians before, they're going to "straighten us all out", I don't know what they will ever learn of fellowship, or of loving the brethren, but I hope better for you.

I'll pray that you find a good church with a good pastor, and if that be heresy, make the most of it......

timbrown · Apr 14, 2006

Sword-In-Hand said:
...If you find a church that preaches the Gospel according to Rick Warren, run away from it. As for the man personally, don't know much about him, have not read his books, nor ever been to a church where they teach anything he's written.

I'm like everyone else and I cringe when pastor's preach on money, but look in Acts. Paul said it is up to us to support our preachers and we should support them. Our money is for the up building of God's kingdom not to line anyone's pockets. Give as God asks and let Him take care of those you give it to. In the book of Micah it speaks largely about tithing and I still believe it holds true to this day.

Lately Rick Warren has begun writing columns in the "Ladies Home Journal." I'm a male CNA at a nursing home. The last place I worked, they had that magazine there. And I noticed Rick's article listed on the cover. I read it.

Rick said alot about "finding your purpose" and "being spiritual" but nothing about Christ, sin or anything else of Biblical substance. If this had been a "Christian" magazine, maybe I could understand this...But this is a secular magazine. I read that column over and over hoping to see something I missed but found nothing. If I were a new ager, it would have stroked me in all the right places.

Like so many, I'm supportive of "giving as you will". The Lord loves a cheerful (greek = "hilarious") giver. If your heart is right, you will give freely...and you won't even need a calculator. I used to get so frustrated when I'd hear the tedium on Larry Burkett's program....splitting hairs on what to base your "ten percent" on. Look, if you are trying to figure what you can KEEP or what you MUST GIVE, you aren't giving with the right motive.

It's all God's, lent to us as a stewardship. Give accordingly. If we're going to demand tithing, let's tithe out of our crops and cattle too.

Tappanga · Apr 19, 2006

I have a few opinions on just a few things you've asked...

Church membership (The secret knowledge is only obtained by a member... sounds like Gnosticism),

In my Southern Baptist church (and every chuch I've been a member of), membership (and attendance) is for fellowship, not salvation. I don't recall any pastor giving special code that visitors weren't supposed to hear.

Wrick Warren (Bases theories on Paganism

),

I'm going to assume you mean Rick Warren. Um, my church uses the Bible, not Purpose Driven Life, as our Word.

Tithing (Why on earth are Baptists preaching about money. Didn't they know that the love of money is the root of all evil. And that is no secret.),

You are not supposed to be money before God. Money is used in the church to reach non-believers.

Water Baptism (Should I get circumsised too?),

Matthew 3:13-17. Good enough for Christ, good enough for me.

Sorry I can't answer all of them. I have a meeting in twenty minutes I need to prepare for.

Ioustinos · Apr 19, 2006

Hagios17 said:
Hi all

My name is Josh. And I used to be Baptist, until I realised not all Baptists are going to heaven … along with many other contrabutions, such as:

Good day, Josh. I shall try to answer your questions as best I know how.

Church membership (The secret knowledge is only obtained by a member... sounds like Gnosticism),

This is a major category mistake. Gnostics taught of a "secret knowledge" that basically stated the body was evil and that the spirit was good and therefore the ultimate goal was to be "freed" from the body. Church membership is far from Gnosticism.

Church membership is used to recognize the fellowship of believers. By joining a local congregation a person is joining the fellowship of belivers in Christ. Certainly you do not deny this occured...

Also consider the language of Paul when he speaks of "putting" members out of the Church (1 Cor. 5:2) or of John speaking of "those going out" from us(1 John 2:19). Who is this us? It was an identified body of believers, which is the same thing as the modern understanding of church membership.

Wrick Warren (Bases theories on Paganism ),

Rick Warren is the pastor of Saddleback Commnity Church in California. He holds no official position in any baptist denomination. If you condemn the Baptists because of their association with Rick Warren then you must condemn the majority of American Christianity, as many denominations and churches have used and applied The Purpose Driven Life principles.

With that said I have to admit that I believe Rick Warren is a good man and a Christian, but I must disagree with some of his theology both pratical and doctrinal.

Tithing (Why on earth are Baptists preaching about money. Didn't they know that the love of money is the root of all evil. And that is no secret.),

Tithing is not mandatory. But if you look at the New Testament you will find several passages that encourage giving to the cause of Christianity. Paul praises the early churches because of their giving (1 Corinthians 9:8-12; 1 Timothy 5:17-18;2 Corinthians 9;Romans 15:26; Philipians 4:15) to fellow churches. As well the Apostles and the early church leaders/pastors had the authority to receive money from the churches in order to support themselves (see 1 Thess 2:5-9; 1 Timothy 5:17,18; 1 Corinthians 9:8-15)

Water Baptism (Should I get circumsised too?),

By denying baptism you show your error in not paying attention to either the Scriptures or the history of Christianity. Baptism has been as symbol of the Christian faith since the time of Christ and baptism was a ritual often performed by God's covenant people, Israel, before Christ came.

Christ himeslf as baptized (Matt. 3:13-17; Mark 1:9-11; John 1:29-34), his disciples baptized people under his administration (John 3:25-30), and he commanded his disciples to baptize converts (Matt. 28:16-20; Mark 16:14-18). In Acts you find that upon believing in Christ, the new converts are baptized (Acts 2:37-41; 8:12,13,16,29-39; 9:10-17; 10:44-48; 16:14,15, 25-34). I will stop here for the sake of time because there are many other instances in the general epistles and Pauline epistles where the practice of baptism within the Church is mentioned.

Arminianism (Merging of Semi-pelagianism and the Bible: Its maxim: "It is mine to be willing to believe, and it is the part of God's grace to assist."),

Not all Baptists are Arminian. Though many do fall under that category there are many Calvinistic Baptists and if you research the history of Baptists you will find that the majority of Baptists were Calvinistic in their origins. So you can't lump everyone together.

Legalism (strict adherence to the law??? "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." (1 Corinthians 6:12 ) )

Again you are making the fallacy of combining everyone into the same group. Legalism can be found in multiple denominations and forms of Christianity around the world. To make the claim that only Baptists are "legalistic" is intellectually dishonest.

What are your opinions on these I have just mentioned?

My opinion, and I am not trying to be rude, is that you are either misguided or ignorant of the understanding of what defines a "baptist" and of the Scripture passages that concern some of the questions you have raised.

I hope my answers are coherent and feel free to ask any follow up questions.

Justin

Metatron777 · Apr 25, 2006

Phileoeklogos said:
Well first lets start with a quote;

"I don't want to sound too antagonistic"

Oh really, could have fooled everyone here. You came here with some ill informed idea of what Baptists believe and try to paint everyone with a broad brush, your so called "questions" are for what purpose?

You have invented a "Baptist" that only exists in your mind, and it doesn't even make a good strawman.

In the future, before you refute or debate anyone on their beliefs, make sure you know what they really believe and the issues that are involved, I don't think that you have demonstrated either. (Just for example, You may want to take a look at your defintion of Arminianism, their are some easily spotted errors in it)

You seem to be some type of a calvinistic, charismatic, possibly hyper dispensational fellow with some strange ideas on what Baptists believe, possibly formed by your experiences in some wacked out Baptist church somewhere, honestly I don't know where on this forum you wouldn't find fault with what people here belive.

I've run into Lone Ranger Christians before, they're going to "straighten us all out", I don't know what they will ever learn of fellowship, or of loving the brethren, but I hope better for you.

I'll pray that you find a good church with a good pastor, and if that be heresy, make the most of it......

I couldn't have said it any better myself.

tulc · Apr 25, 2006

Mmm… Interesting… You quote from the Deist … I’ll quote from the Logos:

hmmm interesting, you didn't actually address the quote, you dismissed the quote.

I must warn you that his study is quite involved and might cause you to think

Anything is possible even thinking, so go a head!

tulc(who just the other day was struck by a stray thought and it left a welt!)

If Not For Grace · Apr 26, 2006

find the things you do agree with and support them

EXCELLENT!--If only we looked at more things that way--find what you are for--and do that, Let others be against whatever they are against.

The only comment I have for the baptist is the forbidding of consuming or selling or working for places that sell booze in order to be a member.

tulc · Apr 26, 2006

Aaah So you don’t believe H2O saves Did you know that the malefactor that was crucified next to Jesus was promised salvation even though he had not been baptised into H2O Or was Jesus a liar:-(

Nice try, I don't believe
A) you have to be baptized to be saved , What I did was answer your question:

So water baptism becomes a sort of initiation into the church, hey? I am foreign to this teaching… Show me where in the scriptures that water baptism is talked of in this way please?

and the scripture I gave showed that example.
and B) I love when people try and make me angry online!

It shows you've run out of arguments and been reduced to name calling.

So...where's the link?
tulc(who is having a lot of fun on this thread!)

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