Pledge Unconstitutional

kern

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No, we would just be in a society where laws are made so that we can pretend that we are in a society that holds in esteem moral absolutes vs. the doctrine of diversity and moral relativism.

You can't force people to accept Christianity through legislature or by inserting two words in the pledge.

-Chris
 
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TheBear

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Originally posted by Not Prince Hamlet



Hmmm. That's a tough call. If their job description says that they have to attend public events when they can be spared, then it might be appropriate for them to have to go to this one. But if that's the case, they should also be obligated to go KKK parades, too, if requested, and Neo-Nazi marches, and any other public events. In other words, it must be all or none, and it must be clearly in their job description so that they knew what they were getting in to.

Jeff


Exactly. They should not be forced to participate in any 'volunteer' activity that they are morally opposed to.

John
 
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Gunny

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"...[C]onservatives are vulnerable to being destroyed by unethical behavior because we emphasize personal moral responsibility. A conservative with significant moral failings is shocking because individual responsibility is the point of most everything we fight for." --Rabbi Daniel Lapin

"There has never been a free society or nation without God. But history is cluttered with the wreckage of nations that became indifferent to God, and died." --Whitakker Chambers

"If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under." --Ronald Reagan

"Schools are overrun with drugs, violence, guns, rape, murder, and now even mass murder. It seems America´s schools have everything...except prayer...The Constitution never, ever intended to ban school prayer and never intended to separate God and the American people." --Rep. James Traficant

"In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people." --Noah Webster

"I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her commodious harbors and her ample rivers, and it was not there; in her fertile land and boundless prairies, and it was not there. Not until I went to the churches of America and heard her pulpits aflame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because she is good, and if America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." --Alexis de Toqueville, Democracy in America, 1826

"Political freedom, as the Western world has known it, is only a political reading of the Bible. Religion and freedom are indivisible. Without freedom the soul dies. Without the soul there is no justification for freedom...Hence every sincere break with Communism is a religious experience." --Whitakker Chambers

"The rights of the colonists as Christians...may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the great Lawgiver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament." --Samuel Adams
 
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Since we're introducing posts about the greatness of religious morals, I've decided to introduce this quote after all:

In the 1930s, Pacelli and his associates negotiated with the Nazis to form a contract which got signed in 1933 as the Reich Concordat with the approval of the Pope. Note that the Catholic hierarchy believes in the infallibility of Popes in matters of faith and morals (ever since the First Vatican Council of 1870). This Concordat with its Papal infallible authority had arguably neutralized the potential of 23 million Catholics to protest and resist and which helped Hitler into legal dictatorship. [Cornwell, p. 4] After the agreement, Hitler, mimicking Pacelli fourteen years earlier stated, "I will devote my entire strength to cultivating and strengthening the relations between the Holy See and Germany." [Cornwell, p. 136] (Hitler, spent more time and effort on the concordat with Pacelli than on any other treaty in the entire era of the Third Reich [Cornwell, p. 150]). This Concordat gave Germany an opportunity to create an area of trust with the Church and gave significance to the developing struggle against international Jewry. According to John Cornwell, this papal endorsement of Nazism helped seal the fate of Europe which makes it plausible that these Catholic prejudices bolstered aspects of Nazi anti-Semitism. [Cornwell, p. 28]

The Concordat and the following Jewish persecutions resulted in the silence of the Pope and the bishops. Cardinal Faulhaber of Munich, referring to the Nazi attacks on the Jews, wrote to Pacelli, confirming that protest proved pointless since it could only extend the struggle to Catholics. He told Pacelli, "Jews can help themselves." [Cornwell, p. 140] Most bishops and Cardinals were Nazi sympathizers as were bishop Wilhelm Berning of Osnabruck and Archbishop Grober of Freiurg ( Pacelli's choice for emissaries).

On April 25, thousands of Catholic priests across Germany became part of an anti-Semitic attestation bureaucracy, supplying details of blood purity through marriage and baptism registries in accordance with the Nazi Nuremberg laws which distinguished Jews from non-Jews. Catholic clerical compliance in the process would continue throughout the period of the Nazi regime. [Cornwell, pp.154] Any claimed saving of all-too-few Jewish lives by a few brave Catholics must stand against the millions who died in the death camps as an indirect result of the official workings of the Catholic body.

After <I>Kristallnacht</I> (where Nazis broke Jewish store windows and had synagogues burned) there issued not a single word of condemnation from the Vatican, the German Church hierarchy, or from Pacelli. Yet in an encyclical on anti-Semitism, titled<I> Humani generis unitas </I>(The Unity of the Human Race) by Pope Pius XI, a section claims that the Jews were responsible for their own fate. God had chosen them to make way for Christ's redemption but they denied him and killed him. And now, "Blinded by their dream of worldly gain and material success," they had deserved the "worldly and spiritual ruin" that they had brought down upon themselves. [Cornwell, p. 191] Cardinal Theodor Innitzer, archbishop of Vienna warmly received Hitler in Vienna after his triumphal march through the capital where he expressed public satisfaction with Hitler's regime. [Cornwell, p. 201] Meanwhile, Cardinal Bertram sent Hitler an effusive telegram, published on October 2 in the Nazi newspaper <I>Volkischer Beobachter,</I> "The great deed of safeguarding peace among the nations moves the German episcopate acting in the name of the Catholics of all the German dioceses, respectfully to extend congratulations and thanks and to order a festive ringing of bells on Sunday." [Cornwell, p. 202]

Note, this doesn't mean that&nbsp;Christianity is evil. But it does demonstrate that not everything done by Christians is necessarily good, either.

&nbsp;

&nbsp;&nbsp; Jeff
 
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kern

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The idea that Christian Nation = moral society is complete nonsense. There have been several countries that called themselves "Christian Nations" (such as Nazi-era Germany) who were far from moral. It also seems to me that some of the worst atrocities in American history (genocide of Native Americans, firebombing of German and Japanese civilian population, etc.) were committed before most people claim these moral declines started. And how about all those so-called Christian activites of the middle ages which we'd all like to forget now? These do not invalidate Christianity (of course), but in my mind there is no clear connection between a "christian nation" and a moral society.

Now, if you literally had a "christian nation" (i.e. everyone in the nation is a devout Christian) then of course morals would be higher according to Christian standards, but this *cannot* be accomplished by legislation. You can't force people to be moral Christians through two words in a pledge or a phrase on a coin.

There are also good examples of non-Christian nations which have very low crime rates, and which would certainly be considered "free nations", such as modern Japan, which has less than a 1% Christian population.

-Chris
 
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Originally posted by kern
The idea that Christian Nation = moral society is complete nonsense. There have been several countries that called themselves "Christian Nations" (such as Nazi-era Germany) who were far from moral. It also seems to me that some of the worst atrocities in American history (genocide of Native Americans, firebombing of German and Japanese civilian population, etc.) were committed before most people claim these moral declines started. And how about all those so-called Christian activites of the middle ages which we'd all like to forget now? These do not invalidate Christianity (of course), but in my mind there is no clear connection between a "christian nation" and a moral society.

Now, if you literally had a "christian nation" (i.e. everyone in the nation is a devout Christian) then of course morals would be higher according to Christian standards, but this *cannot* be accomplished by legislation. You can't force people to be moral Christians through two words in a pledge or a phrase on a coin.

There are also good examples of non-Christian nations which have very low crime rates, and which would certainly be considered "free nations", such as modern Japan, which has less than a 1% Christian population.

-Chris

Chris,

&nbsp; Exactly my point. I think there are people who act good, and people who act evil. There are good Christians and evil (self-proclaimed) Christians and there are good atheists and&nbsp;evil atheists.

&nbsp; My point is that forcing the United States to conform to Christianity would not in any way make it a more moral nation. The good people would still be good, and the evil people would still be evil, and all people would be oppressed.

&nbsp;&nbsp; Jeff

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

&nbsp;
 
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eldermike

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Jeff,

What is the moral anchor for atheist? I know personally an atheist that tells me that it's the law. But is the law moral? He also tells me it's the parents responsibility to instill moral values. Where do parents get them? This is a serious question. The atheist friend I am speaking of is a good man, He just will not admit His morals are Christian based.

Blessings
 
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Originally posted by eldermike
Jeff,

What is the moral anchor for atheist? I know personally an atheist that tells me that it's the law. But is the law moral? He also tells me it's the parents responsibility to instill moral values. Where do parents get them? This is a serious question. The atheist friend I am speaking of is a good man, He just will not admit His morals are Christian based.

Blessings

Eldermike,

&nbsp;I can't answer that question for you, I'm afraid. Atheism is not a religion, so we don't share a common moral code or set of beliefs. The only thing that all atheists have in common is that we doubt the existence of a supreme being. That's it.

&nbsp;So, one Atheist's moral code might indeed be based of Christian values, while another might be based off something entirely different.

&nbsp;My own valueset is an admixture of various sources. For instance, I subscribe to Mills's Utilitarianism (the greatest good for the greatest number) and moral relativism (what's good for the people in China may not be good for me, and visa versa). While my beliefs aren't based off of Judeo-Christian moral codes, obviously they've been influenced&nbsp;by them, just as theyve been influenced by every other culture I've read about or encountered.

&nbsp;I also believe that a lot of what we call morality comes from Natural Selection. (Yeah, I know, not a popular topic here.) I believe that collections of individuals that murder each other, for instance, are less likely to survive and reproduce than groups that do not. Hence, I believe that some of our strongest moral&nbsp;beliefs have both an environmental and a genetic component to it.

&nbsp;I also do not believe in life-after-death, and therefore life becomes more precious to me. In my belief system, this is the only life we'll ever get. A person who is suffering in this life will not reap benefits in an afterlife. An evil person in this life will not suffer in Hell. To me, this life is all that there is, thus is all that can ever matter to us.

&nbsp;But before you give Christianity credit for a given moral behavior, you ought to check to see if other cultures were exhibiting similar morals without Christian influence. For instance, take cultures in Africa, India, America, Japan, and others that existed prior to Christianity was introduced, and you'll see a lot of so-called "Christian" values already were there.

&nbsp;This isn't to say that Christianity doesn't have values unique to itself. Only that we have to be careful before we arbitrarily designate a value as being a Christian one.

&nbsp;&nbsp; Jeff

&nbsp;
 
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Oh, sorry. I missed your other question: is the law and morality the same thing?

The answer is that it depends on how you define morality. To some people, yes, they are synonomous. To others, no they are not.

Most Americans (I think) feel that laws are a good thing. Most Americans (I think) also think nothing about exceding the speed limit. :)

I think there are very few people who agree with all of our laws. I for one, do not. But laws are a way that we citizens attempt to make a society that is fair to all people and safe for all people. We don't always succeed (hence this topic) but I believe that to be the intent of law.

I think at its most basic level, law is as follows: "I promise not to kill you, and you promise not to kill me. If one of us breaks this promise, all the other people who have made the same promise will punish the oathbreaker." Thus with this treaty, we hope to all feel a little safer from being murdered by our fellow humans.

BTW, the fact that we need laws to me testifies to the fact that there isn't an absolute morality, because if we all shared the same value system, we wouldn't need laws: everybody would just know what is right and what is wrong.

&nbsp;&nbsp; Jeff

&nbsp;
 
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eldermike

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Jeff,
Thanks for your answer.
I agree that Christian values exist in places were atributing them to Christianity would be difficult to pull off. However, I believe that we were created in the image of God, therefore values are simply a design feature. Scripture is the Christian anchor and God is the author of scripture. Perhaps your view of the nature of values is evidence of this since we seem to share certain values with and without scripture. Could that be design? It would seem to me that atributing this to natural causes would be difficult.

Blessings
 
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Originally posted by eldermike
Jeff,
Thanks for your answer.
I agree that Christian values exist in places were atributing them to Christianity would be difficult to pull off. However, I believe that we were created in the image of God, therefore values are simply a design feature. Scripture is the Christian anchor and God is the author of scripture. Perhaps your view of the nature of values is evidence of this since we seem to share certain values with and without scripture. Could that be design? It would seem to me that atributing this to natural causes would be difficult.

Blessings


The problem is that the morality of the scripture isn't necessarily the morality I think you agree with.

Here's a quote from Judith Hayes's book In God We Trust: But Which One?

...

You are also faced with biblical passages such as these:

"... their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." (Hosea 13:16)

"Their children shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:16)

"...and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children." (Isaiah 13:18)

"Then Manahem smote Tipsah, and all that were therein, and the coasts thereof from Tirzah: because they opened not to him, therefore he smote it; and all the women wherein that were with child he ripped up." (2 Kings 15:16)

It is not possible to read these Charles Manson-like passages and at the same time claim that the Bible teaches only reverence for life. Less reverence cannot be fathomed. Any compassionate human being cannot read these horrible descriptions of murder without having the stomach turn. And no amount of rationalizing can justify any of it. Such descriptions render the Bible obscene.

Chirstian apologists will explain, earnestly and patiently, that killing and murdering are not the same thing. The ancient Hebrew words for "murder" and "kill" are different, you see. And there were translation errors made througout the Old Testament, and especially in the Ten Commandments, you see. That means that the commandement should read, "Thou shalt not murder" rather than "Thou shalt not kill," you see. So when God ordered entire communities to be slaughtered, including the babies, he was ordering only that they be killed, not murdered. You see.

This sort of linguistic hairsplitting is intelligence-insulting, and betrays an astonishing callousness. Dead babies are dead babies, and I don't care which Hebrew verb you use to describe how they got that way. The obscenity of the destruction of Samaria, as described in Hosea 13:16 cannot be translated out of trouble; The verse, in its entirety, states, "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword; their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

Well, that paints a pretty clear picture. You can play Name That Verb forever, but you will never change the monstrous nature of that appalling directive.

Since most of us have never dashed an infant to pieces, it is a challenge even to imagine how one might go about doing it. Try to envision such a thing, and as you do so, freeze your face muscles and go look in a mirror. You will see pain, shock, disgust, and perhaps a bit of nausea. But try not to sidestep this mental exercise. We are talking about the "Holy" Bible here, so let's plow through this.

Imagine, then, grabbing, say, a six-week-old, screaming infant away from its equally screaming mother. How would you "dash" the tiny baby to pieces? Perhaps you would grab the baby by its ankles and swing it, like a golf club, smashing its little head against a stone wall or tree, until its skull cracked and its brains spilled out. That should certainly qualify as dashing in pieces.

As for "ripping up" the pregnant women, it would probably just be a matter of using a sword and stabbing at their swolen bellies, repeatedly, until the fetuses were destroyed and the women were, literally, ripped up and lying, dead, in pools of their own blood.

(At this point, you might want to make note, again, of your facial expression.)

...

There is a lot of action in the Bible that most people simply could not agree with. Could you dash an infant or rip up a pregnant woman? Would you call such actions moral?

I may be a godless heathen in your eyes, condemned to spend an eternity in Hell, but I could never perform such an act, nor do I consider it moral.

Nor, I suspect, could you. You seem like a very decent guy, and I can't imagine you dashing an infant.

&nbsp;&nbsp; Jeff

&nbsp;
 
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TheBear

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Those quotes scare the snot out of me. I was especially freaked out by former President Bush's comment that atheists should not be allowed to be citizens.

By the way, Thomas Jefferson: secular humanist.

Jeff


I can fully understand and appreciate your concerns, Jeff. I would be just as upset, maybe even more, if I witnessed the Congress trying to endorse and establish any religion.

I just don't see it happening, and pray that I never will.

Sometimes, we need to separate the personal religious convictions of lawmakers from what the lawmakers are actually doing in the performance of their public duties and sworn obligations. One of their main obligation is to uphold the Constitution of The United States. And, even though there are many non-Christians in the Senate, 99 to 0 rejected the ruling.

So, rest easy my friend. Congress is not going about, trying to establish any religion, regardless of what an individual says in reference to what they personally believe. :)


John
 
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Originally posted by TheBear



I can fully understand and appreciate your concerns, Jeff. I would be just as upset, maybe even more, if I witnessed the Congress trying to endorse and establish any religion.

I just don't see it happening, and pray that I never will.

Sometimes, we need to separate the personal religious convictions of lawmakers from what the lawmakers are actually doing in the performance of their public duties and sworn obligations. One of their main obligation is to uphold the Constitution of The United States. And, even though there are many non-Christians in the Senate, 99 to 0 rejected the ruling.

So, rest easy my friend. Congress is not going about, trying to establish any religion, regardless of what an individual says in reference to what they personally believe. :)


John

I can't rest easy. First of all, 99 to 0 and there are many non-Christians, you say. How many atheists? How many muslims? How many Buddhists? How many Wiccans? How many Satanists? How many Shamanists?

You can't see how discriminatory the&nbsp;Pledge is because you're one of the protected class. The Pledge doesn't exclude you, so it's not surprising that you don't consider it exclusionary.

Most whites didn't understand why blacks didn't like the old separate-but-equal laws. They were allowed on the bus, weren't they? They had their own water fountains, right? Their own schools, right? How could they possibly feel discriminated against?

So, I'm sorry, and I know you mean well, but I don't believe you do fully appreciate my concerns.

&nbsp;&nbsp; Jeff

&nbsp;
 
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TheBear

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Well, I guess we are interpreting the same info, differently.

The fact is, the phrase, "under God", was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954. If the Congress truly wanted to make this some kind of religious state, they would have had ample time to implement such a scheme, decades ago.

The beauty of the Constitution, is that it is a living Constitution, designed to move in one direction, but always with room for improvement. Also, like it or not, grid-lock was desinged in the Constitution. In many House proceedings, grid-lock is a good thing, designed so that nothing is feverishly or impulsively passed, without a thorough hearing from all sides.

And, even with all the possible corrupt politicians; with all the media, political watchdogs, and the internet, not much will go unnoticed by an alerted general public, for very long. Especially, something on the magnitude of making the USA a religious state!

John
 
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