Faith Movement

SavedByGrace3 · Jun 26, 2002

 

 

For you to tell me to "get on with the learning" is rude and uncalled for ... learning is a life-long event and we are daily being transformed into the image of our Saviour ... I have yet to see anyone learn anything overnight ...

I am sorry if you were hurt by this. It was certainly not intended as a cruel or a mean statement. It was not said with the intention of being rude... it was said with the hope it might help some suffering soul to come to the place where they might be made well. I never considered wanting someone healed to be a cruel thing. I can only say that you are setting yourself up for many such hurts if you take all such comments as aimed at hurting you personally. You were not and are not the center of my intentions or my discussion. Everything I say is not about you, or aimed at you. This discussion is simply not about you personally or your personal health. It only is if you make it so.

I do find it very unfair when people enter these discussions and then use their personal conditions or the personal conditions of their loved one as "leverage" to control what is said. If you want to engage in these debate oriented discussions, then you have to exercise some understanding also. We should not have to worry about the feelings of everyone who might read the posts. If we do, then we might as well shut the board down and not say anything to anyone.
I hope you do not take this wrong... it is offered with the hopes that your feelings will be spared in the future.

LouisBooth · Jun 26, 2002

"Pure heresy again. "

then you haven't read your bible. He sents sickness to Israel and their enemies in the OT. Read your bible.

"That's what I said. Are you reading posts carefully or just skimming thru and jumping to conclusions?
"

I think either 1. you're 2 different people posting under the same name or 2. you don't read YOUR OWN posts. You said to rip that out of the bible because its addressed only to timothy. I said, no it should not be. Please read before posting.

"{that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard! THE WHOLE POINT OF HEALING IS SO YOU DONT DIE! "

I personally think then you haven't read your bible at all. The ulimate healing is when you recieve your imperishable body. Christ himself talked about it..remember? Run and not grow weary...? Or did you not read that part? That's what ultimate healing is. Sometimes God heals us that way. Read you bible, please andrew.

LouisBooth · Jun 26, 2002

"A hip out of joint is a far cry from a broken leg. Now, I'm not a doctor but I think that a hip out of joint can be easily popped back? Does anyone here know for sure?

Scripture says that Jacob limped the next day but it does not say he limped for the rest of his life. If it does, please, show me where it is.
"

LOL..okay, dance boy dance. Jacob is a great example of how this docterine you advocate is a false one quif.

Andrew · Jun 26, 2002

Louis, no offence,

but I'm not going to discuss this topic with you anymore since we are always going in circles and I find myself, (as well as Hobart & Quaffer), having to explain the same things to you over and over again.

You are obviously bitterly against healing and prosperity and just want to twist everything we say around. I believe I have tried my best but it's obvious you dont want it. I'd rather have more fruitful discussions with Hobart and Quaffer and others who believe in healing and prosperity so that we can learn more in this area and share a testimony or two and encourage one another, rather than have to defend simple Biblical truths and even common sense stuff (like a parent wont break his child's leg - it's amazing that even Christians want to challenge this).

However, if I do come across people teaching that God is the author or sickness and accidents, and that he breaks his childrens bones (literally) or even kills them (to bring them 'healing'), if i hear such heresy being preached I will come against the teaching, but up to a point. If the person insist on being sick or dying as some misguided form of glorifying God, then all I can say after all is said is that according to your faith be it unto you. You will certainly have what you confess and believe (Mark 11:23,24).

God bless

Hobart, Quaffer: perhaps we can start a new thread and actually learn something from one another in the area of healing/prosperity.

LouisBooth · Jun 26, 2002

"You are obviously bitterly against healing and prosperity and just want to twist everything we say around. "

No andrew, I'm not bitter. Mad that you think that people that don't get healed aren't faithful yes, but not bitter at all. I think this docterine is false and leads people into believing the wrong things. You don't have to discuss with me, but I will still continue to point out how bibilically wrong this docterine is.

"If the person insist on being sick or dying as some misguided form of glorifying God, then all I can say after all is said is that according to your faith be it unto you. You will certainly have what you confess and believe (Mark 11:23,24). "

So what do you tell a child with cancer..keep praying? and if he doesn't heal..what do you say to him or her..tough luck kid you just weren't faithful enough? How sad your docterine is...how sad.

SavedByGrace3 · Jun 26, 2002

...Mad that you think that people that don't get healed aren't faithful...

This is the entire problem... you continue to insist that we are saying that people are not "faithful". We have never said that!!! And in fact have repeatedly denied it!!! And in fact have repeatedly agreed with you that if someone said such a thing that they would be wrong. I am at a loss??? What do you want? You are right... we all agree that you are right. Faithful people can be sick. I will say it again: Faithful people can be sick! It has nothing to do with being "faithful". I know that you do not like the term straw man... but nothing could be straw manier. You set up and argument, ascribe it to us, and then knock it down.

I do not know who you are arguing with... but it is not us. Is there some imaginary debater whose posts we are not seeing?

The phantom poster strikes again!??  

 

 

Gerry · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by Lynn
Is this kinda like the prayer of jabez that I've been hearing about?

lynn

 

No! Nothing like that at all!

Gerry · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by Annabel Lee
What exactly is the "Faith Movement" and the "Name it and Claim it Movement"? On a poll in this forum these two movements are mentioned numerous times.
Thank you!

Peace,
Annabel

 

"Name it and claim it"! lol! AKA "Blab it and grab it" I would not call it a "movement" exactly as it has been around about as long as false prophets.

 

It is for the most part simply a perversion of the Biblical teachings on faith.

Mandy · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by Quaffer

Originally posted by Mandy
I think a perfect example is Jacob.  God did touch his hip for a reason and did not heal him.  I think some times physical infirmities or diseases can be a result of sin.

A hip out of joint is a far cry from a broken leg.  Now, I'm not a doctor but I think that a hip out of joint can be easily popped back?  Does anyone here know for sure?

Scripture says that Jacob limped the next day but it does not say he limped for the rest of his life.  If it does, please, show me where it is.

 

Originally posted by Mandy
I think some times physical infirmities or diseases can be a result of sin.

According to Deut 28, it was always due to sin.  God said, if you obey you will have blessings and no curses.  If you disobey, you will have curses.

I'm not asking you to question scriptures, I'm asking you to question the stories you've been told to back up doctrine you've been taught.

I have a suspision that it's a religious legend that was created to go with that picture we always see of Jesus carrying the lamb.

If there really is documentation for this behavior on the sheperds part I'd like to know.  We cannot keep spreading a story that may not be true.

Thanks,   

  

 

 

Please do not jump on the point I made of Deut.  If you read all my post you'll know that I'm not saying that all sickness is due to sin.

Click to expand...

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jacob limped only the next day.  It is assumed that God didn't restore his hip, because there is no further mention of it.  We are not cursed if we sin, yes many times we reap the consequences of our sin, but God doesn't curse us.  All illnesses and diseases are ultimately a result of sin, not our personal sins, but because our bodies are not redeemed.  Sin is passed on to us and when we becomes saved, it is our spirits that are redeemed, but our bodies are not.  Umm, I haven't been told any stories.  J.Vernon McGee, for example had lung cancer and God healed him, so he finished his commentaries and afterward at some point several years later, he had cancer again.  The point is that when people are healed, they are for a purpose, God's purpose.  Documentation for what?

Click to expand...

SpiritPsalmist · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by Andrew
Louis, no offence,

but I'm not going to discuss this topic with you anymore since we are always going in circles and I find myself, (as well as Hobart & Quaffer), having to explain the same things to you over and over again.

 

Andrew,

I feel for you brother, Louis does not realize that you were quoting him from his post #73.  I had the same response you did, "Did'nt he (you Andrew) just say that? 

Anyway, 

Originally posted by Andrew 
Hobart, Quaffer: perhaps we can start a new thread and actually learn something from one another in the area of healing/prosperity. [/B]

 

 
That might be a good idea.  TrueLightUK has some good insight too.  I'd appreciate hearing more from him.

Blessings :pink:

SavedByGrace3 · Jun 27, 2002

I  feel for you brother, Louis does not realize that you were quoting him from his post #73.  I had the same response you did, "Did'nt he (you Andrew) just say that?

 

I get the same feeling that these folks are not even reading the posts. They are just doing a "hit and run". They pop in, throw out a worn out argument or complain about being abused, and then sit back and watch us "dance boy dance".

 

 .

celtic_crusader · Jun 27, 2002

I believe that we are not only justified by faith but we must live by faith. To the extent we believe is the extent of our faiths active ability in any given situation.

As Andrew has said, according to your faith be it unto you".

Theres allot of pages to this thread so I figure a lot has been said already so I thought a few scriptures were in order for this dividing Christian doctrine that seems to have half of the church teaching faith in god and the other half teaching doubt in gods abilities????

Through my own experience, we are made physically whole to the extent that we believe. If we doubt, it cuts across the work of the Holy Ghost. Christians (including me) boast about there "faith" but live in doubt. Faith is an active force along with fear and it takes believing in either to bring either your fears to pass or your faith to pass. Faith believes in god for good things to happen. Fear believes that something bad will happen.

Hear is some scriptures that say that without "BELIEVING, we cant receive. SO "according to your faith be it unto you".

Mark 16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

John 14
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Luke 8:50
But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.

Matthew 21:22
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Matthew 8:13
And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Mark 9:23
Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Mark 11:23
For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
Mark 11:24
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

Celtic

SavedByGrace3 · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by celtic_crusader
I believe that we are not only justified by faith but we must live by faith. To the extent we believe is the extent of our faiths active ability in any given situation.

Well said Celtic. There is the insistance by some in this debate that "faithful" = "faith". We know that is not the case. I recall in my life that there were times when I was not exactly "faithful", and that affected my faith... but He was still true, His word was still true, and I found that He held on to me in these times.

But you will find that we cannot seem to get beyond this point. It is possible for a person to be a perfectly faithful, beautiful Christian, and still not exercise faith for healing, or whatever. That does not mean that they are "unfaithful"... they are just (for whatever reason) not achieving belief concerning this issue.  

SpiritPsalmist · Jun 27, 2002

Mandy,

Please help me understand your reasoning. In Gen 32:24-32 it tell the story of Jacob wrestling with the Angel of The Lord. Verse 31 says "that as he passed Penuel, the sun rose upon him, and he was limping because of his thigh" (Amplified). Why, do you assume that he limped for the rest of his life? The assumption you've given does not make sense to me.

You are right! God does not curse us. But it's just like a parent whose just told you to not go into the street because there are cars that will hit you and you do it anyway and get hit by a car. The parent did not make the car hit but warned you that it was there. God say, "the wages of sin is death", "whatsoever a man sows, he reaps".

Look at Deut 28:2 (Amplified)God says, "And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you if you heed the voice of the Lord your God". A list of all the blessing follows up to verse 28:15 where God continues "But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God, being watchful do do all His commandments and His statutes which I commanded you this day, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you:" and all the way to the end (verse68) is the list of curses.

It's like gravity, what goes up, must come down. The wages of sin is death. Whatever we sow we reap.

Christ redeemed us from the law of sin and death. But if we sow sin, then we will reap it's law. There are many ways we sin. How about unforgiveness, bitterness, overeating, gossip, lying, stealing, dishonor of parents, etc. These are just a few.

Unforgiveness alone, brings all kinds of diseases. It's not the sole sorce of the disease but it does aid. How many people do you know who are bitter and unforgiving? Do they have ulsers? I've heard doctors say that being bitter and unforgiving can be a cause of ulcers. Is it too hard to look into ourselves and ask if we have brought our illness on? If one does this and God does not show them anything then it is not due to their sin. But what if God does show them something? Should they not let God deal with it, be healed, and go on to glorify Him even more? Again, I don't understand your reasoning.

Regarding stories: I get e-mails everyday of nice, encourageing stories. Their labeled as true but come to find out some of them are not. They are not bad stories but people have passed them on as true without really knowing for sure. That's all I was referring to when I asked about documentation on the lamb story. It's a good story but it really what a shepherd does to a wandering sheep? And to use that as a basis for one being sick, to me, does not show the heart of our Father God.

It seems that what I remember from the book "A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23" the writer did share that with a rebellious sheep, that continuously refused to stay with the flock, and was bringing danger not only to itself but to the rest of the flock, that he had to take some serious measure. Possibly that was to break it's leg and then carry it around as described by LilyLamb. But he did not maim the ship so that it limped for the rest of it's life. He did not allow infection to set in to the bones so that it would die a horrible and painful death. He cared for it. Eventually, it would rejoin the flock.

If one sees their illness as a result of their being like a rebellious sheep then they need to look at their statement a little closer. God says "rebellion is the same as witchcraft" (1 Samuel 15:23).  If your admitting to rebellion you are sinning. 

Infoming people what Our Father says is not condemming them. None of us would learn if no-one ever told us that maybe we were missunderstanding what we've been taught. I've given lots of scripture in almost all of my posts. Look everything up and reason it out with God. He is faithful.

Blessings sister,

Iffy · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by Quaffer

Since satan is the one who comes to kill, steal, and destroy (John 10:10)I believe it is safe to assume that anything that brings weakness to our bodies or our spirits has begun with him. 
............
So, in the forfront, it's our lack of wisdom, but sickness as a whole is from Satan.

 

Hallo Quaffer! I"m really enjoying reading this thread and I apologize for jumping in now (at 8th thread) but I just wanted to point out that to blame Satan for everything is extreme. Sometimes bad things are the work of the evil one. Sometimes not.

We have sickness because we live in a fallen world. Sickness entered the world when sin entered, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God. This is very basic Christian doctrine. The bad stuff we see in the world is because of fallenness . Agree?

The pro Faith movement in this thread also seem to misunderstand the arguments. No one is arguing against healing.

I think all are in agreement that God heals, wants to heals.

The argument is against

 - over emphasis on healings, blessings or a cushy life.

Jesus Himself said that whoever wants to follow Him must take up His cross. Jesus also said that in this life we will surely have tribulation.

Over emphasis (imbalance) can cause us to lose our focus on God

- over emphasis on faith

Paul said the greatest gift is love. And God's love we didn't deserve, called Grace is sufficient for us. If you talk too much about faith or a lack thereof, we tend to become legalistic..we place too much importance on our works, effort. God looks at our hearts first and foremost.

If you say someone is not healed because of a lack of faith, person will try in his OWN strength to achieve the measure of faith he thinks is necessary for healing. That puts too much emphasis on the SELF, not healing through God's grace and Spirit.

What did God say to Zerubabbel in Zechiariah 4:6

It is not by might, not by power but by my Spirit, says the Lord Almighty.

I think a good test of any teaching is whether it glorifies God, not man. Also, whether that teaching actually puts more importance of what MAN wants and perceives over GOD's nature and GOD's will or NOT. 

In His Name, Iffy

 

ps - with regards to prayer,  what Jesus said in John 16:23 I tell you the truth my Father willl give you whatever you ask in His name.

Name in Bible always signifies character. If you ask according to God's character, God's will, He will answer you. This means not always what you want but if it aligns with God's will where His name can be glorified. Because that is our sole purpose on earth. Glorify God!

So, asking for healing, blessings...all in God's name(character, will). That is the context. If we wanna emphasize anything, it is how is something glorifying God? If God gave you lots of money, great! Use it to build His kingdom. If God healed you, use that to build His kingdom. If God doesn't heal you physically, use that to build His kingdom too! (eg. Joni is crippled but still talented in art and a well known author and speaker who can attest 'My weaknesses is made perfect in His strength' ..isn't God better glorified than a direct healing?) In talking about blessings, healings and all that good stuff, don't forget that character is only built through great suffering and God wants us MOST to rely on Him, not on wordly perceptions of blessings. Where's your focus?

 

celtic_crusader · Jun 27, 2002

There is the insistance by some in this debate that "faithful" = "faith". We know that is not the case.

It is possible for a person to be a perfectly faithful, beautiful Christian, and still not exercise faith for healing, or whatever. That does not mean that they are "unfaithful"... they are just (for whatever reason) not achieving belief concerning this issue.

I totaly agree with you on your points hear Hobart. Faith is an active force that needs to be put into action in any given situation.

Just because someone isn`t healed , doesn`t make them unfaithful , I agree but rather , If one puts faith in god for there healing , then I believe it "will" take place.

Matthew 21:22
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, "believing", ye shall receive.

I have seen people just encourage people to the point of believing until they have imparted faith and then faith kicks in and the healing (or whatever) happens. I have seen it happen like that , over and over again.

Peace

Celtic.

SpiritPsalmist · Jun 27, 2002

Hi Iffy,

For the most part, yes, we agree.

Cushy life?   None of us has implied that and have repeatedly said so.  Faith is hard work, sometimes takes years, and is not fun until the answer comes.

Overemphasized?  :scratch:

  Hmm

Heb 11:6 "Without faith it is impossible to please God"  The whole chapter talks about faith.

Jesus talked alot about faith, see: Matt 6:30, Matt 8:10, 26, Matt 9:2, 22, 29, Matt 14:31, Matt 15:28, Matt 16:8, Matt 17:17, 20, 21, 23, Matt 24:45, Matt 25:21, 23, Mark 2:5, Mark 4:40, Mark 5:34, Mark 9:19, Mark 10:52, Luke 5:20, Luke 7:9, 50, Luke 8:25, 48, Luke 9:41, Luke 12:28, 42, Luke 16:10, 11, 12, Luke 17:5, 6, 19, Luke 18:8, 42, Luke 19:17, Luke 22:32, and John 20:27.

Overemphasize?  I don't think so.

My focus is on Jesus Christ and Him crusified.  He died for my wholeness in body, soul, and spirit.  If I am sick I am told to call for the elders to pray for me and that the prayer of faith will heal and if I have sinned then my sins are forgiven. (James 5:15) 

:bow:

Thanks for your input Iffy.  A lot of good points.

 

SpiritPsalmist · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by celtic_crusader

Just because someone isn`t healed , doesn`t make them unfaithful , I agree but rather , If one puts faith in god for there healing , then I believe it "will" take place.

Matthew 21:22
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, "believing", ye shall receive.

I have seen people just encourage people to the point of believing until they have imparted faith and then faith kicks in and the healing (or whatever) happens. I have seen it happen like that , over and over again.

Peace

Celtic.

 

Hello Celtic   :wave:

Another post I can say, YES!!!!!!!  :clap:

Encourage is exactly what we are attempting to do, but those we are incouraging keep thinking we're putting them down  :scratch:

LouisBooth · Jun 27, 2002

"you continue to insist that we are saying that people are not "faithful". We have never said that!!! "

Holbert, then you're not reading andrew's posts, I even quoted some for you... *sigh* I think ya'll are a little absent minded. You post something then a page later..no no..I didn't post that... *chuckles* make up your mind..

LouisBooth · Jun 27, 2002

Funny how he makes it quite clear..faith, hope and love..and the greatest is....love....not faith...

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