The Pledge

i like that quote!!

It should be a bumper sticker....that's a good quote!

i stated my opinion in the other thread already. and someone remind me never to enter into a "debate" at 1am again.

Actually, the original "Pledge of Allegiance" did not include the phrase "under God". That part was inserted during the 1950s.

I do not believe that it is right to require children of different faiths to profess allegiance to America "under" a religion they do not believe in. How would you feel if you were required to pledge allegiance "under Allah" or "under Vishnu"? I can guarantee you that some of you would raise a "ruckus".

I say we return to the original pledge and avoid this unnecessary and nationally divisive conflict.

The way I look at it is this way..   NO different then having prayers in School- if you do not want to say it then DON't  - People as well as the Justice system have taken the seperation of state and Church way out of PROPORTION....   No where does it say church and government is to be totallty against the other - just that there will not be a specific religion governing the State...     No One is forced to say UNDER GOD - just as No One was FORCED to PRAY.........   We are supposed to have freedom - yet the CHRISTIANS do not..........   

 

The Basic principle is DON't Say IT if YOu don't believe it....    on a personal note - I never said the pledge in school - because I felt there WASN'T JUSTICE for ALL - So I skip over those words...   I stands by the Flag and the Country - I served in the MArines and I honor all the PEOPLE who fought to make us Free and to keep us free..   Even those who want to burn the flag and tear down every thread of decency left....

I would never dream of taking a pledge to a flag anyway. My allegiance all belongs to God, not a piece of cloth.

Well let me ask you this Wayne. How would you feel if every morning, before classes, there was a muslim prayer held over the intercom, then a buddhist chant, then a hindu prayer, THEN a Christian prayer? How would you feel about that Wayne?

And let me ask you this. What if the pledge of allegiance said "under Quetzalcoatl"? What would you do Wayne? Would you say "under Quetzalcoatl"? Would you refuse to state the pledge of allegiance, or would you just "skip" over that phrase? What if you believed in more than one god? What if you didn't believe in a god at all?

I'm not saying that people haven't died to protect our country, and I thank you for serving in the Marines. The fact I'm trying to make is that people shouldn't be required or be subject to witnessing as a captive audience a pledge they do not believe in or that they consider offensive. Now I've asked you whether you could accept other religions also holding prayers and having allegiance "under [respective deitie(s)]", and you, under your existent bias to the situation and its rebuttals, will most likely say, "sure". But I guarantee you that if the preexistent phrase was "under [deitie(s) other than the Christian God]" you would at least consider starting a debate -- probably a heated one -- over it.

Originally posted by humblejoe
Actually, the original "Pledge of Allegiance" did not include the phrase "under God". That part was inserted during the 1950s.

I do not believe that it is right to require children of different faiths to profess allegiance to America "under" a religion they do not believe in. How would you feel if you were required to pledge allegiance "under Allah" or "under Vishnu"? I can guarantee you that some of you would raise a "ruckus".

I say we return to the original pledge and avoid this unnecessary and nationally divisive conflict.

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1.  We are a "free" nation, which includes the freedom of religious expression. However, we are also a nation that was founded upon a belief in God (NOT Allah or Vishnu). This is common knowledge, not a well kept secret. If I were in a nation that WAS founded on a belief in Allah, why would I be surprised that their pledge included a spoken allegiance to Allah?

2.  Being a "free" nation, we also enjoy the freedom to speak, or to NOT speak. One is not required to speak the Pledge of Allegiance.  There is no law against refusing to say the pledge, or to speak the words "under God". But as a nation, we would do well to remember that we are, indeed, a nation "under God". Removing that from the pledge is one more step we would take in pledging our "independence from God".  If proclaiming that we are under God as a nation causes controversey or conflict, do you honestly believe that God's answer would be to refrain from our proclamation? When has He ever asked such a thing of His people?

First off - there is a big difference between debating what you feel is right or wrong versus going to court and MAKING everyone do something on the basis of ONE PERSON..  

 

and second - your right - SURE...     I personally would probably just not SAY it period...  and you have to seperate prayer and pledge of allegence....    Prayer was a time of SILENCE and you were to pray IF YOU WANTED...     and saying the pledge is not REQUIRED - I didn't say it in School - and there are religions that do not say it because of thier religion..      all in all though joe..   this is a free country - if they were saying a muslim prayer - I wouldn't participate - UNLESS I WAS MADE to - then YES - I would argue it and I would debate it..  but its not that way..   whats really funny though - its not the other RELIGIONS that complain about these things ( prayer in schools or pledge ) its those that say there is no GOD..  So - if they believe that - then they should just skip over the words because they do not believe it..

maybe Christians should go to the Supreme court and complain about Santa Claus being put on government property - it offends Me and probably many other people..   but people have a right to put up what they want..  

 

REDEEMED - You posted while I was typing - I agree with your post...

Lamb........   forgive me for saying - but you missed the point..  as Christians - yes - We owe our full support to God..  but the Bible tells us to support our Government and back it - thats all the pledge is saying - that we as Americans support this Country...  We may not agree or like whats being done at times..    but for the most part - its free and I personally think under GOD.. and blessed by GOD...    

 

Take care - God Bless.........

P.S..   edited to add this..   Some Governments have Christian Prayer as well as other Religious prayers at the opening of the Senate and Congress for resepctive States...... 

Lamb........ forgive me for saying - but you missed the point.. as Christians - yes - We owe our full support to God.. but the Bible tells us to support our Government and back it - thats all the pledge is saying - that we as Americans support this Country... We may not agree or like whats being done at times.. but for the most part - its free and I personally think under GOD.. and blessed by GOD...

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I think you are the one who missed the point. You are pledging your allegiance not to a country or its people, but to a piece of cloth. That's idolatry.

In addition, we are not to make any oath at all, and that is what a pledge is, an oath.

Jesus's own words: 

Again, you have knowledge that it was said in old times, Do not take false oaths, but give effect to your oaths to the Lord: But I say to you, Take no oaths at all: not by the heaven, because it is the seat of God; Or by the earth, because it is the resting-place for his foot; or by Jerusalem, because it is the town of the great King. You may not take an oath by your head, because you are not able to make one hair white or black. But let your words be simply, Yes or No: and whatever is more than these is of the Evil One.    Matthew 5:33-37

Yeah Whatever...

 

I do not think pleading allegance to your country is the same as idolatry - or anything close to it..  its not the cloth your pledging to - but the Country - and whats behind it..     then again - think what you want..     your taking the Bible way out of context in this issue..     what the pledge is saying - I back My country - the government and for what the flag stands for.......   its not swearing to anything...   even that up to a point must be done in certain situations..   When you join the Military - when the President takes office - and many other circumstances you take an oath of Office..    I guess they are all wrong............   to swear you will UPHOLD the office your taking..          I'm not going to argue the points with you - you want to think that way - so be it - thats why its a FREE COUNTRY.........

 

I have some other thoughts about people not pledging allegence to the Country - but those I will keep to Myself..    like I said - your free to think what you want - you were given that right - even to burn the flag if your compelled to... 

Hey, if the words out of Jesus's own mouth don't matter to you..."whatever" is right!  It's up to you to follow or ignore.  All I can do is tell you what He said.

but the pledge is to the FLAG, not the country. Pledging allegiance, if pledging were not forbidden by God, would still be wrong because it is to an inanimate object, not to a nation, a government or it's people or laws.

"I pledge allegiance to the FLAG..."

I hold no intense animosity toward the pledge, but I believe that "under God" infringes on the rights of those that do not believe in the Christian deity.

As far as government functions, swear-ins, oaths, etc., a nonChristian being required to recite the pledge is offensive. It's like the United States government telling that individual:

"SURE!!!!! You can take office as a government leader!!! All you have to do is recite a pledge under the godhead of a deity you do not recognize and is contrary to your belief system. See, now that's too difficult or offensive, now is it? I mean, you have to publicly abandon your personal convictions and viewpoints in front of hundreds, thousands or even millions of Americans, but HEY!!! America is a free country, and that's ok; we can do it if we want to because we're all good ole boys here, right?! I mean it's not like we're proselytizing you, even though we are forcing you to verbally submit to a God you don't worship and/or believe to exist, but HEY!!! That's just another technicality you can just sweep under the rug, just brush off to the side, as a small sacrifice, even though it does compromise your own belief system's integrity."



If you ask me, it seems rather silly, not to mention very unjust.

All oaths of office are optional for conscientious objectors. Even the oath of the presidency would be waived, but no president has ever asked for a waiver.

FWIW, lambslove, I agree with your stand WRT taking the pledge.

However, the pledge is also to the country. To wit, "and to the Republic for which it stands". The Republic is our country.

Now as much as I consider such an event likely in my lifetime, suppose the US deems witness illegal (as it is in many countries, e.g., India). Then either I am compelled to break faith with God or my country. The Bible strongy condemns oath-breakers. So if I witness, I am an oathbreaker. If I do not, I fail the Great Commission.

This world is not my home, I'm just passin' through...

Tinker

So what if it is also to the country? It's still oath-taking, which Jesus spoke against. I think that if we are going to ignore some of his words, like, "Don't take an oath at all," then we should ignore all his words, like, "I am the way, the truth and the life."

How can it be that some of his words are to be taken seriously, and others aren't? Either everything he said is for us, or nothing is.

lambslove,

If you read my post carefully, you will see that I said I agreed with your stance on taking oathes.

You'll note that I corrected your understanding of the pledge, BUT ALSO that there is a problem with taking an oath to a country as it could put us in an untenable position.

In other words, I think I strengthened your argument by pointing out a hole but then filling it (IMHO).

'K, I'm on your side here.

Tinker

I have yet to see a clear explanation of what it means to pledge to the flag. I understand the "and the republic" part... but what about the flag? Imagine that I only pledged allegiance to the country - what would be the difference between my oath, and that of someone who also pledged to the flag?