Asking The Saints To Intercede.

No Christian will deny the resurrection of Christ. A protestant can be most anything....protesting high taxes, for instance.

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Then you need to get out more. There are Protestants that deny the Church, the efficacy of the Mysteries of Christ, that He descended to Hades as God, that He ascended and sits at the right hand of the Father as man, that He rose on the third day. All of this and more can be seen confessed by Protestant Christians.

Christ conquered all, this earth, the cross, and death. The Bible speaks of this. Thank God.

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You didn't answer my question, do you remove the verses from the Bible that have Jesus nailed to the Cross ?

Theophorus said:

If I love my earthly father, then I would conform to his image, I would be drawn to it. And if my fathers image was love, then I would express that.

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And like I said you would respond out of that love.Your desire would be to please him because of love and respect...It's unconditional love that is put out.. You have to admit alot are motovated out of fear, they are compelled to do the work.. But on the other hand like the prodigal we don't lose our inheritance because we mess up. If so, our modis operedi is faulty the our motive isn't pure...pax..kim

Redwolf said:

I reject all and every thing regarding the catholic church. I have never been a catholic nor have I remotely considered being one.
I think you need to revise your statement.

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So then you have no first hand experiential knowledge of that which you criticize, but rather second hand info ?

HisKid1973 said:

And that explains whay we don't have Paul or Peter setting up how we are to pray to Stephen..pax..kim

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Actually the fact that the Chruch knows where the Saints 'relics' are, and the fact that the 'Catacombs' show us that the Saints were used, and that souls were prayed for...by early Christian writings on the tombs, then I can surmise that the Apostles did teach this.......

That and also the Church didnt just one day start doing it.
It was handed down.

IF the first Christians put this in the catacombs, and they were buried by the CHURCH then I can assume the Church didnt waver from what was recently taught by the Apostles.

History of Intercession of Saints

Catholic and Orthodox Christians trace the origins of intercession of saints to the New Testament, when St. Paul asks the Christians in Ephesus, Thessalonica, Colossus and Rome to pray for him (Eph. 6:19, 1 Thes. 5:25; Col. 4:3, and Rom. 15:30-31).
The practice of intercession is also mentioned in several surviving writings from the early church. A letter attributed to St. Basil (329-79 AD), for example, states:
In addition, St. John Chrysostom wrote that Christians should seek the intercession and the fervent prayers of the saints, because they have special "boldness" (parresia), before God (Gen. 44:2 and Encomium to Julian, Iuventinus and Maximinus, 3).

The idea of NOT asking for the intercessions of the saints is a little too recent for me to accept it. We're not looking to the saints for salvation, only asking them to pray to God for us.

WarriorAngel said:

Actually the fact that the Chruch knows where the Saints 'relics' are, and the fact that the 'Catacombs' show us that the Saints were used, and that souls were prayed for...by early Christian writings on the tombs, then I can surmise that the Apostles did teach this.......

That and also the Church didnt just one day start doing it.
It was handed down.

IF the first Christians put this in the catacombs, and they were buried by the CHURCH then I can assume the Church didnt waver from what was recently taught by the Apostles.

History of Intercession of Saints

Catholic and Orthodox Christians trace the origins of intercession of saints to the New Testament, when St. Paul asks the Christians in Ephesus, Thessalonica, Colossus and Rome to pray for him (Eph. 6:19, 1 Thes. 5:25; Col. 4:3, and Rom. 15:30-31).

The practice of intercession is also mentioned in several surviving writings from the early church. A letter attributed to St. Basil (329-79 AD), for example, states:

I acknowledge also the holy apostles, prophets, and martyrs; and I invoke them to supplication to God, that through them, that is, through their mediation, the merciful God may be propitious to me, and that a ransom may be made and given me for my sins.​

In addition, St. John Chrysostom wrote that Christians should seek the intercession and the fervent prayers of the saints, because they have special "boldness" (parresia), before God (Gen. 44:2 and Encomium to Julian, Iuventinus and Maximinus, 3).

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[1] These saints were alive and living on planet earth when he asked them to pray.

[2] None of these were canonized at the time of their designation by Paul. And you rightly identify Christians as saints.

The biblical part sounds very Protestant.

Oblio said:

And some Protestants don't believe Christ was Resurrected.

Your point ?


Notice that the Bible has Christ hanging on a Cross, do you remove those verses that testify to this ?

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Can you name the denominations that deny the resurrection?

My bible ends the gospels with Christ resurrected not still hanging on a cross.

The resurrection is a sign that the sacrifice was accepted by the Father.. To the praise and glory to His name !

Without this miracle, there is no Easter...there is no Christianity.

Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;


Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Oblio said:

Having left the Catholic confession, rather than focusing on the reasons you left by attacking it's praxis, perhaps you could focus on your current faith.

I find that those who obsess about anothers praxis, more often than not once participated in it themselves, and they gain personal justification in berating that which they (for whatever reason, right or wrong) left.

BTW, there is a word for this. Convertitis

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I think it might be beneficial if you found someone else to analyze.

I have been saved for 30 years, I do not have to "re visit " that decision or to justify it to myself or God.

Thank you for your thoughts though

oblio said:

I find that those who obsess about anothers praxis, more often than not once participated in it themselves, and they gain personal justification in berating that which they (for whatever reason, right or wrong) left.

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Redwolf said:

I reject all and every thing regarding the catholic church. I have never been a catholic nor have I remotely considered being one.
I think you need to revise your statement.

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I think rather that it is you who needs to re-read the statement- he said "more often than not" allowing for the fact that there are those who demean that which they have never been or known- take for example male chauvinists.

drstevej said:

[1] These saints were alive and living on planet earth when he asked them to pray.

[2] None of these were canonized at the time of their designation by Paul. And you rightly identify Christians as saints.

The biblical part sounds very Protestant.

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O I see, you make yourself a saint. AND Catholics do believe in saints on earth, but they are not Saints.
And anyone who is righteous can pray for another [the prayer of the righteous availeth much] and who is more righteous than the living who live in Heaven?

Perhaps your mistake is not believeing in the souls who live in Heaven to be alive.
They are not dead...they are sperated and they do very much pay heed to what goes on on earth.

THE POWER OF GOD'S SERVANTS PRAYERS.

Exodus 32;
11 But Moses besought the Lord his God, saying: Why, O Lord, is thy indignation kindled against thy people, whom thou hast brought out of the land of Egypt, with great power, and with a mighty hand? 12 Let not the Egyptians say, I beseech thee: He craftily brought them out, that he might kill them in the mountains, and destroy them from the earth: let thy anger cease, and be appeased upon the wickedness of thy people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou sworest by thy own self, saying: I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven: and this whole land that I have spoken of, I will give to you seed, and you shall possess it for ever. 14 And the Lord was appeased from doing the evil which he had spoken against his people.

JOB
7 And after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Themanite: My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends, because you have not spoken the thing that is right before my, as my servant Job hath.

Eph
18 By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit; and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints:

1 Thess
23 And may the God of peace himself sanctify you in all things; that your whole spirit, and soul, and body, may be preserved blameless in the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He is faithful who hath called you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

Hebrew 13
Pray for us. For we trust we have a good conscience, being willing to behave ourselves well in all things. 19 And I beseech you the more to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner. 20 And may the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great pastor of the sheep, our Lord Jesus Christ, in the blood of the everlasting testament.

James 5
16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

AND now I see where the prayers of the just are pleasing to God...but no where do I see where the prayers ever cease nor that we are told once we go into eternity we no longer have need to pray for one another.

Havent we been thru this b4??

You said you 'thru God' continue to pray for your loved ones on earth...
NOW, why for heavens sake would the Lord not allow you to continue caring and praying for those who suffer??

NO where does scripture tell us that once we are bodily gone from earth that our prayers and requests are now void and unheard.

DO you think because you are in Heaven, you cease caring about your children, parents, and loved ones??

LIVING spirits in Heaven are there BECAUSE they care about others...and have lived selflessly...and they according to long standing ancient Tradition, continue to intercede and speak on our behalf.

The Church since the beginning has documented prayers to Saints..those are evident in the early Christian catacombs.

AND this is WHY the Bible cannot be sole fide.or sole answer for salvation.

NOW no one presses anyone at any time to pray for any Saints intercession...but it just so happens that more prayers are answered to humanity's benefit because of the righteous prayers of the sinless.

I dare say.....its difficult to explain to someone who doesnt read history.

My dad died in 1996.
My mom is NOW wheelchair bound, but at that time she was using a walker and or cane to walk....
One night my mom had a dream of my dad. He told her that he could do NOTHING for her while alive on earth, but NOW he was able to help her if she asked.

The next day from that dream, she walked as though she never had a problem.

Sadly, her faith in asking for his intercession, even with proof from the dream that he showed her, she did not improve, but got worse since....because she did not believe he could help her.

Yet, he instructed her that he could.

THIS is typical of ppl who 'believe' but do not have the greatest of faith of that which is in front of them. I love my mom....but she would be fine now had she just asked with a heart that believed.

My mom always told me to pray and ask, but not to expect anything.

Jesus says quite another thing...but sadly, if we did request the assistance...then we would get the help. JUST ASK!

What does that hurt??
That doesnt mean you are making them above Jesus...it means you are asking them to speak to Jesus.

WarriorAngel said:

My dad died in 1996.
My mom is NOW wheelchair bound, but at that time she was using a walker and or cane to walk....
One night my mom had a dream of my dad. He told her that he could do NOTHING for her while alive on earth, but NOW he was able to help her if she asked.

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A dream? OK, I feel bad for your mother and everything, and I hope she's doing well, but I fail to see this as proof. I mean, anybody can dream about anything. Just think about it. Maybe she just missed your dad, and that's why she had a dream about him. Clearly, this is all speculation.

WarriorAngel said:

The next day from that dream, she walked as though she never had a problem.

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WarriorAngel said:

Sadly, her faith in asking for his intercession, even with proof from the dream that he showed her, she did not improve, but got worse since....because she did not believe he could help her.

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So now we are to trust in "saints" instead of God? I think that if she would have trusted in God, there would not be a problem at all. Trust in God for everything instead of people. I don't think your point proves anything. It was a dream, that's all.

WarriorAngel said:

Yet, he instructed her that he could.

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WarriorAngel said:

THIS is typical of ppl who 'believe' but do not have the greatest of faith of that which is in front of them. I love my mom....but she would be fine now had she just asked with a heart that believed.

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That believed who? God or your dad? I'm sorry my friend, but I think that when people place their trust in God alone for such things, then I'm sure there wouldn't be a problem. But instead, you are turning it into a matter of trusting in saints who are in heaven. Trust in Christ, for He is the only one who can do anything. "What is impossible for man is possible for God." Mk.10:27

WarriorAngel said:

My mom always told me to pray and ask, but not to expect anything.

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WarriorAngel said:

Jesus says quite another thing...but sadly, if we did request the assistance...then we would get the help. JUST ASK!

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Perhaps if you trusted in God to do it for you instead of a saint. Once again, this whole dilemma is speculation. I'm sorry, but if I had a dream about a hot dog that promised to me that if I prayed to it, my leg would no longer be broken (just an example). I don't think I could make a logical conclusion and say "Oh, I'm going to pray to the hot dog, it promised me that my leg will no longer be broken if I do it." I'm sorry, my friend, but seriously, I think this is not a work of God but a work of the Anti-Christ.

WarriorAngel said:

What does that hurt??

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WarriorAngel said:

That doesnt mean you are making them above Jesus...it means you are asking them to speak to Jesus.

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We can speak to Jesus directly... so.... what's the point of putting someone in between? Think about it, there is only ONE mediator between God and men, and this is Christ Jesus 1 Tim 2:5. So... Yah, that's why we have a direct relationship with God, so that we can talk directly to him and not through a "saint" or a priest or whatever. Praise God for giving us a direct relationship with Him so that we can take our problems directly to Him instead of through a buffer.

I'm probably going to get alerted for this too. I just know it. *sigh*

To the glory of God,

Randy

WarriorAngel said:

My dad died in 1996.
My mom is NOW wheelchair bound, but at that time she was using a walker and or cane to walk....
One night my mom had a dream of my dad. He told her that he could do NOTHING for her while alive on earth, but NOW he was able to help her if she asked.

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I am sorry for your loss.


That was a dream. The human mind is a funny thing, it tries to deprogram us nightly and to try to make sense of things we can not consciously grasp.

Both of my parents are gone, I sometime dream of them.

The next day from that dream, she walked as though she never had a problem.

Sadly, her faith in asking for his intercession, even with proof from the dream that he showed her, she did not improve, but got worse since....because she did not believe he could help her.

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In real life was the only time he cared for her needs when she asked? Perhaps she knows things you do not, or perhaps she has asked and does not want to admit that there was no answer to her prayer.

I do not think it is right to judge your moms faith on this

Yet, he instructed her that he could.

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In a dream.
I have had thousands of dreams that are not true, but products of my unconscious mind. Haven't you?

THIS is typical of ppl who 'believe' but do not have the greatest of faith of that which is in front of them. I love my mom....but she would be fine now had she just asked with a heart that believed.

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You have no way of knowing that, you have no way of knowing her dreams or prayer or hopes . Please do not put your mom under condemnation because of something you believe.

My mom always told me to pray and ask, but not to expect anything.

Jesus says quite another thing...but sadly, if we did request the assistance...then we would get the help. JUST ASK!

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Jhn 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you.


Jhn 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for

We do not understand why some prayers are answered yes and some no, but there is a day we will understand.

What does that hurt??


That doesnt mean you are making them above Jesus...it means you are asking them to speak to Jesus.

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Jesus says you should ask HIM directly .

I will add your mom to my prayer list, it is a terrible thing to be alone and handicapped.
Please do not add to her burden by implying it is her fault or her lack of faith that is to blame. Remember this incident?



Jhn 9:1 And as [Jesus] passed by, he saw a man which was blind from [his] birth.


Jhn 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?


Jhn 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.


Jhn 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Sheep are always sheep and the goats are always goats. Works do not change the substance of the one working ( or not working) them.

Remember Jesus said this

Jhn 10:23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.


Jhn 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.


Jhn 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.


Jhn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.


Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

No where does Jesus say they are not sheep because they do not do works.


They were always sheep, their works did not make them sheep, they did good works because they were sheep.

The fruit does not give life to the tree, the tree gives life to the fruit.

WarriorAngel said:

O I see, you make yourself a saint. AND Catholics do believe in saints on earth, but they are not Saints.
And anyone who is righteous can pray for another [the prayer of the righteous availeth much] and who is more righteous than the living who live in Heaven?

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Who is more righteous than the living who live in Heaven? I know the answer to this one: God.

WarriorAngel said:

Perhaps your mistake is not believeing in the souls who live in Heaven to be alive.

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WarriorAngel said:

They are not dead...they are sperated and they do very much pay heed to what goes on on earth.

THE POWER OF GOD'S SERVANTS PRAYERS.

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What?

WarriorAngel said:

Exodus 32;

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WarriorAngel said:

11 But Moses besought the Lord his God, saying: Why, O Lord, is thy indignation kindled against thy people, whom thou hast brought out of the land of Egypt, with great power, and with a mighty hand? 12 Let not the Egyptians say, I beseech thee: He craftily brought them out, that he might kill them in the mountains, and destroy them from the earth: let thy anger cease, and be appeased upon the wickedness of thy people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou sworest by thy own self, saying: I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven: and this whole land that I have spoken of, I will give to you seed, and you shall possess it for ever. 14 And the Lord was appeased from doing the evil which he had spoken against his people.

JOB
7 And after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Themanite: My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends, because you have not spoken the thing that is right before my, as my servant Job hath.

Eph
18 By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit; and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints:

1 Thess
23 And may the God of peace himself sanctify you in all things; that your whole spirit, and soul, and body, may be preserved blameless in the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He is faithful who hath called you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

Hebrew 13
Pray for us. For we trust we have a good conscience, being willing to behave ourselves well in all things. 19 And I beseech you the more to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner. 20 And may the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great pastor of the sheep, our Lord Jesus Christ, in the blood of the everlasting testament.

James 5
16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

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I'm not sure what you are trying to prove by these prayers, but you have to recognize something called context. Who were the authors writing to here? People in heaven or people on earth? People on earth, obviously. Context context context.

WarriorAngel said:

AND now I see where the prayers of the just are pleasing to God...but no where do I see where the prayers ever cease nor that we are told once we go into eternity we no longer have need to pray for one another.

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And this has nothing to do with praying to the "Saints". Let me ask you a question: Do the saints pray to other saints who pray to other saints who pray to God? Didn't think so.

WarriorAngel said:

Havent we been thru this b4??

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WarriorAngel said:

You said you 'thru God' continue to pray for your loved ones on earth...

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WarriorAngel said:

NOW, why for heavens sake would the Lord not allow you to continue caring and praying for those who suffer??

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What does this have to do with praying to saints?

WarriorAngel said:

NO where does scripture tell us that once we are bodily gone from earth that our prayers and requests are now void and unheard.

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WarriorAngel said:

DO you think because you are in Heaven, you cease caring about your children, parents, and loved ones??

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Begs the question again: What does this have to do with praying to saints?

WarriorAngel said:

LIVING spirits in Heaven are there BECAUSE they care about others...and have lived selflessly...and they according to long standing ancient Tradition, continue to intercede and speak on our behalf.

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Living spirits in heaven are there because they trusted in Christ alone for their salvation, not because they "care about others... and have lived selflessly.. and according to long standing ancient Tradition..." Salvation is by faith alone. Hab. 2:4 clearly states: The just shall live by faith.

WarriorAngel said:

The Church since the beginning has documented prayers to Saints..those are evident in the early Christian catacombs.

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And we are saying that the Church is wrong in documenting prayers to saints. All of a sudden, we no longer have a direct relationship with God by the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ on the cross.

WarriorAngel said:

AND this is WHY the Bible cannot be sole fide.or sole answer for salvation.

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So... extra-biblical stuff makes the Bible not sola fide because these "Church fathers" did not preach a gospel of sola fide. Right... tell me, how many times does it say the word repent in the book of Galatians? Oh none... that's too bad.

WarriorAngel said:

NOW no one presses anyone at any time to pray for any Saints intercession...but it just so happens that more prayers are answered to humanity's benefit because of the righteous prayers of the sinless.

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WarriorAngel said:

I dare say.....its difficult to explain to someone who doesnt read history.

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Say what? We don't pray for those who are in heaven or in something that doesn't exist (purgatory). We don't need to pray for them. Instead, we need to pray for the saints that are on earth. In the world.

Righteous prayers of the sinless? I'm sorry, name me one human besides Jesus that was sinless.

To the glory of God,

Randy

JordanF said:

The idea of NOT asking for the intercessions of the saints is a little too recent for me to accept it. We're not looking to the saints for salvation, only asking them to pray to God for us.

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Why ask the saints to pray to God for us instead of us praying to God for ourselves?

People are not actually sheep or goats. The parable makes it clear that the way one is seen (judged) is on the basis of what one does.

"Nowhere does it say people are not sheep because of what they do"

I'll take that bet

Matthew 25:33-36And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand (sheep), Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

The goats are told why they are not blessed, and it is the very opposite of the words to the 'sheep.'

This could not be any plainer.

Yes, and we have proven that praying to saints is a bunch of superstition.

You've proven nothing of the sort. There has been opinions about the matter abounding, but no 'proof.'

Why ask the saints to pray to God for us instead of us praying to God for ourselves?

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Strawman, hopefully borne of ignorance. If you like I can post a plethora of prayers that we pray directly to the Holy Trinity.

Dear Warrior Angel:
Memory eternal to your father, and may the Lord show mercy upon your mother.

Some here have dismissed the dream she had, saying and implying that these are nothing more than pop up windows in the brain. In this rationalist age, most Christians also believe that demons were nothing more than mental illnesses and that God's miracles all have rational explanation. I don't agree.

We know that there are biblical examples- many- that involve God speaking to people through dreams. "Your young men shall dream dreams and your old men see visions" was a condition of the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost. But even before that we see Joseph, the Magi, and many others being warned in dreams.

We also see this occuring many, many times in the history of the Church.
Blessings
Iakovos the Reader

PS: for the Portestants who think of this as 'Catholic Superstition,' I herein section a bit of a sermon by Finney on this very matter:
Sometimes persons are, no doubt, warned by dreams, although I do not think that dreams can be relied on, because they are very generally occasioned by the state of the health or the nervous system; yet it is manifest that they are ofttimes providential, and have been so in every age of the world. There have been striking instances in which persons have been warned by dreams; I have heard many such things related myself, as no doubt other persons have also; and sometimes, doubtless, they are to be received as warnings. President Edwards relates a very remarkable and striking instance of warning given to a man by means of a dream. In his congregation there was a notorious drunkard, who had for many years absented himself from the house of God and given himself up to strong drink. One night this man had a dream, and he dreamed that he went to hell. I need not enter into the circumstances as to what he saw there, because that would take too long, and be quite unnecessary. However, he was greatly agonized, and prayed to the Lord to give him one trial more, and let him return to earth: well, the Lord gave him leave to do so for one year, and if he was not reformed in that time, he should surely return to hell. The man, as might be supposed, was greatly distressed about this dream, and he went to President Edwards in the course of a few days and related it to him.President Edwards told him that he ought to regard it as a providential warning from God, and hat it was unwise not to regard it as such. For a time, the man broke off his old vice, and betook imself to the house of God. few months only, however, passed away before he went on in his old career, till be became as bad, if not worse than ever. One day he had been drinking a great deal, and became very intoxicated, and being unable to get home, he was carried into a carpenter's shop, and laid down among the shavings: in the night he awoke, and attempted to go down the stairs, when he fell and broke his neck. As this dream had seemed very remarkable to President Edwards, he noted it down in his common-place book at the time that it was related to him, and when he heard of the man's death, he referred to the entry, and found to his amazement that it was just a year that very night. I mention this fact for the purpose of illustrating what I mean, that ofttimes, God in dreams, as well as various other ways, reproves persons for their sins. He does it by his Word, his writings, by sermons, and indeed by every way this is calculated to remind the sinner that he is not doing his duty.
Source: http://www.matthew548.com/DOOM%20html.htm