Teaching Elders in the PCA

rmwilliamsll

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The immediate prompting for this thread is:

Our local PCA pastor can't even preach a simple sermon on the creation account because, as the elders put it, there are many in the church leadership who hold to theistic evolution.
from: http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22671079&postcount=24

which followed:
The old neo-orthodox methodology of Biblical interpretation appeals to us. One result, leaders offer a 'take your choice from the bag of views' of Biblical creation because we in our culture have already been infected to academic compromise by public education's prophets of evolution. We were unwilling to accept simply what God says in His Word though many scientists did and have found their scientific affirmations in its light. light.
from: http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?179


I am aware of the following related things although since i gain my information solely by reading, these may not be quite right, i am looking for help to well form the ideas:

YEC, OEC, GAP and FI are allowed under the creation report.

The Westminster Presbytery refuses to ordain any men with anything but a strict YEC viewpoint. They threatened to leave the denomination, apparently did not. They have not been censored by GA for this stand, despite overtures to do so.

i am aware of Terry Gray's trial in the OPC on the issues.

i am aware, from reading G.North's _Crossed Fingers_ that the issue has effected both conservatives and liberals. One of North's major themes is that both Machen and Warfield crossed their fingers in subscribing to the YEC content of the WCF.

in asking my Pastors concerning the bulk of exceptions taken at Presbytery, they informed me that:
first was paragraphs on the Sabbath and allowable activities. the third was on the CED debate, i've misplace my notes and don't remember the second.

question 1:
are there any teaching elders on record with a theistic evolutionary stance, in the PCA or OPC?
have there been trials other than T.Gray's over the CED issues?

question 2:
for those who have gone to ordination exams.
is the CED positions a big issue? has any one expressing views like those of Warfield passed the exams? what are the big exceptions taken to the subscription to the WCF?


question 3:
why has it become such a polarizing issue? is it the dominant left-right division in the PCA? or is women's ordination the tipping point between liberal and conservative (my point)?

question 4:
where do the masses of teaching elders in the PCA and OPC seem to stand on the issues? in the light of the two above quotations there appears to be a strong YECist presence that would deny the validity of even OEC viewpoints? what are the relative %'s of elders in the PCA who are OEC vs YEC for instance? where to go for decent information on the topic?


pointer to places and books to read would be helpful. my notes on subscription are kept at:
http://www.dakotacom.net/~rmwillia/hap2.html

thanks for your help, this is the only place i know to ask such questions and expect good answers.
on PB, the only other reformed online forum i monitor, it is not even an acceptable topic to ask the questions.
 

Irishcat922

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Chapter IV
Of Creation​
1. It pleased God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,(1) for the manifestation of the glory of His eternal power, wisdom, and goodness,(2) in the beginning, to create, or make of nothing, the world, and all things therein whether visible or invisible, in the space of six days; and all very good.(3)

Where in the WCF does it teach a young Earth? I personally lean towards a young earth, but i think the WCF is somewhat ambiguous as to the actual age of the earth. I think that is why Hodge, Warfield, and Machen and others can safely, as a matter of freedom of conscience, take issue with YEC.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Irishcat922 said:
Chapter IV
Of Creation​
1. It pleased God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,(1) for the manifestation of the glory of His eternal power, wisdom, and goodness,(2) in the beginning, to create, or make of nothing, the world, and all things therein whether visible or invisible, in the space of six days; and all very good.(3)

Where in the WCF does it teach a young Earth? I personally lean towards a young earth, but i think the WCF is somewhat ambiguous as to the actual age of the earth. I think that is why Hodge, Warfield, and Machen and others can safely, as a matter of freedom of conscience, take issue with YEC.

there is an extraordinary work on the topic, it was posted to capo, however it is only on thewaybackmachine now. capo has been down for perhaps 2 years now. rats it was a superior site.
see:
http://web.archive.org/web/20030306233249/capo.org/holdfast5.html

both the PCA and OPC creation reports are very well done on the topic as well:
http://www.pcanet.org/history/creation/report.html
http://www.opc.org/GA/CreationReport.pdf

to answer the question:
in the space of six days
 
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Irishcat922

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I personally think there is compelling evidence to prove the earth is relatively young. The Issue is as you said the days. A good book to read on this subject is The Genesis Debate. I sided more with J. Ligon Duncan & David Hall, who argued in favor of the 24 hour view. The two other arguments were very compelling though.

Here is an outline my Pastor did on the issue, we have debated this a little. Yet I still love and respect him, Albeit I disagree with his take on Creation.
http://www.opcfw.com/papers.asp?papid=05
 
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rmwilliamsll

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i have a webpage set up for things i've found useful in discussion at:
http://www.dakotacom.net/~rmwillia/index_ced.html

i try to keep a link to my book reviews at:
http://www.dakotacom.net/~rmwillia/bookreviews.html
about 1/2 my total reading is on the topic.

_The Genesis Debate_ is a good introduction to the topic, i don't know why i don't have a review of it, perhaps it was left unfinished. it is worth reading.

what is most interesting is your Pastor's:
Against theistic evolution of man

1. Gen 2:7 lifeless body until God breathed animation into him
2. Gen 2:22 woman directly from man, not from pre-existent life forms
from: http://www.opcfw.com/papers.asp?papid=05
i think this is pretty common. OEC have to fight the debate on two fronts, contra YEC and contra TofE. it is important to get that disclaimer in ASAP to counter the constant YEC refrain of compromiser and accommodationist with TofE.

thank you very much for the link.
 
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Gamecock

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rmwilliamsll said:
The immediate prompting for this thread is:


from: http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22671079&postcount=24

which followed:

from: http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?179


I am aware of the following related things although since i gain my information solely by reading, these may not be quite right, i am looking for help to well form the ideas:

YEC, OEC, GAP and FI are allowed under the creation report.

The Westminster Presbytery refuses to ordain any men with anything but a strict YEC viewpoint. They threatened to leave the denomination, apparently did not. They have not been censored by GA for this stand, despite overtures to do so.

i am aware of Terry Gray's trial in the OPC on the issues.

i am aware, from reading G.North's _Crossed Fingers_ that the issue has effected both conservatives and liberals. One of North's major themes is that both Machen and Warfield crossed their fingers in subscribing to the YEC content of the WCF.

in asking my Pastors concerning the bulk of exceptions taken at Presbytery, they informed me that:
first was paragraphs on the Sabbath and allowable activities. the third was on the CED debate, i've misplace my notes and don't remember the second.

question 1:
are there any teaching elders on record with a theistic evolutionary stance, in the PCA or OPC?
have there been trials other than T.Gray's over the CED issues?

question 2:
for those who have gone to ordination exams.
is the CED positions a big issue? has any one expressing views like those of Warfield passed the exams? what are the big exceptions taken to the subscription to the WCF?


question 3:
why has it become such a polarizing issue? is it the dominant left-right division in the PCA? or is women's ordination the tipping point between liberal and conservative (my point)?

question 4:
where do the masses of teaching elders in the PCA and OPC seem to stand on the issues? in the light of the two above quotations there appears to be a strong YECist presence that would deny the validity of even OEC viewpoints? what are the relative %'s of elders in the PCA who are OEC vs YEC for instance? where to go for decent information on the topic?


pointer to places and books to read would be helpful. my notes on subscription are kept at:
http://www.dakotacom.net/%7Ermwillia/hap2.html

thanks for your help, this is the only place i know to ask such questions and expect good answers.
on PB, the only other reformed online forum i monitor, it is not even an acceptable topic to ask the questions.

Without going into my belief on creation.....

Would you rather have someone who holds to 7 day creation in Hell

OR

Someone who holds to evolution in Heaven? (Either the Holy Spirit will correct this error, or Grace will cover it. )
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Gamecock said:
Without going into my belief on creation.....

Would you rather have someone who holds to 7 day creation in Hell

OR

Someone who holds to evolution in Heaven? (Either the Holy Spirit will correct this error, or Grace will cover it. )

that is an attractive way to try to finese the debate. but it really is conflating two things: salvation and one's view of Gen 1 and origins.

it is akin to the:
Christianity =/= young earth creationists
evolution=/= atheism

trying to separate things logically so that we can settle issues on their own merits, not by linking them to the important and more settled issues.
 
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