Why should I believe in Jesus?

Slave2SinNoMore · May 31, 2002

Here is why I believe.

First, God is a must for me. I do not believe that something as complex as this world, and the animals that inhabit it, and teh humans who inhabit it and use reasoning, could have just "exploded" from nowhere.

Now, that having been said, why do I believe in Christ over others, such as Mohammed, or Krishna, or Buddha, or whoever else?

Simply put, because Christ deals with the sin issue mots effectively.

Look at Islam...you have to work hard to be accepted by Allah, and even then, it might not be hard enough to get you in the door of Heaven. It's a completely works-based religion, and very subjective.

But now look at Christ, and how he deals with the sin issue. With Christ, it doesn't matter what you do...you will never earn your way to Heaven. And why? Because God's standard of acceptance is nothing less than perfection. God can't even look upon sin, the Bible says. Christ's rescue plan - his death on the cross to pay the punishment for our sins and thus erase all sins present and past for the believer - is the only one that makes sense to me. If God is Holy, how can he accept anyone less than Holy into his kingdom? He can't. And that is why people must have the blood of Christ to cleanse them from all our sin in order to be able to be in God's presence. It's not a question of hell being a punishment - It's simply out of God's nature to be able to abide in the presence of sin. When we become Christians, our flesh isn't perfect, but our spirits sure are, and that's what Christ looks at.

That is why I think you should believe in Christ.

Seraphiel · May 31, 2002

If God is Holy, how can he accept anyone less than Holy into his kingdom? He can't.

Well put

Othniel · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by Squirrel

I was given this "title" by one of the forums members, I am evil, and my position is evil.

You can change the picture by your name by going to your profile. Placing the blame for the picture on your own personal profile on someone else will not get sympathy from me...though, if someone has unjustly forced you to caryy that symbol, then they need to rethink their walk with Christ. I apologize if a "Christian" has done this to you. That is not their place. Even so, it should be in your power to remedy the situation, but you must want to.

Thank you for admitting that is it indeed a threat. The above is also basically your views on how god sees man as you gather from the bible. I can live with that. But, a threat is a threat is a threat, and love is not based upon fear, threats or coercion. There is no way I will say different.

Click to expand...

Love is not based on a threat. Love is the promise to remove that threat, without penalty, provided that the evil we are born into we allow God to cleanse us from. The threat is not to force us to love Him. Think of it in allegorical terms:

Imagine two liquids, like oil and vinegar. They cannot mix, and even if shaken up, they will separate. Good and evil are the same...they cannot be together. Furthermore, evil cannot exist on its own power, but must steal power from good to exist. For this reason, damnation (the removal of evil from God's presence) is a threat to us, but is not God making a threat, but simply His stating the nature of how things are and always will be , for God cannot go against His nature (He could choose to, but were He to do that He would cease to be God, and therefore He will not choose to because He is God.) So what is a threat to our existence and peace and happiness, what to our logic is threatening, is not a human threat, but a Truth based on absolute reality. Love, then, is the option to not be evil anymore if we don't want to...to give up being separate from God by nature, and to let Him, through the blood of Christ, make us good so that we will not naturally cause ourselves to choose hell.

Also, how is it I am a without christ? I am a very happy well adjusted complete person. In fact once I did leave the trappings of christianity and religion, I was a lot more at peace, and happy than ever before.

Click to expand...

Simply because you see yourself one way does not mean that is how you are. Humans have a tremendous abiliity to lie to themselves in order to feel secure. Psychology shows us that people in abusive relationships are completely convinced that everything is ok, yet anyone looking from the outside can see the problems. So it is with God and us. For all any human could tell, you might be , but the Bible says that God sees you as . I cannot look into your soul myself, but God can.

I do realize that this statement I made here will not be taken at face value...sigh....

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You seem to enjoy passing judgments on me/us before we speak. I'm not sure what you mean by face value. You obviously do not take the Bible at face value, otherwise you would accept Christ as your Savior...so I guess I don't understand your frame of reference for your judgment. When I read what you've written, the words you say fit precisely into a patter described by the Bible about people who will not accept Christ...how is this not taking them at face value. It would seem it is rather seeing what you say for what it is. Of course, I could be wrong...that's for certain...but...God can not.

Peace to all who seek it, (looks like this---> :bow:

)
<><

sbbqb7n16 · Jun 18, 2002

Nobody need threathen the man....

"Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every oppurtunity. Let your conversations be full of grace seasoned with salt, so that you may always know how to answer everyone"
- Colossians 4:5-6

Be nice to the man, he's just asking a question....

Now Squirrel, your question I see is a relevant one, but you can't try and answer that question without the Bible! You need the Bible, for it is the Word of God. And without it you can never know about Jesus or why you need Him. So you would need to read the Bible. In my opinion, I would read some of the OT laws on sacrifice to God, and see how it relates to the NT version of what Christ did for you and me. Also read the gospel of John, because I believe he covered the amount of love involved in what Christ did better than the others. Romans is more practical application of Christ's teachings more than anything else. Or at least what I have read

Squirrel · Jun 22, 2002

First off, thanks to all that answered my question. I appreciate it. I thought I would address this one point before I addressed the others...

Originally posted by Othniel

quote:

I do realize that this statement I made here will not be taken at face value...sigh.... (quoting me previously...)

You seem to enjoy passing judgments on me/us before we speak. I'm not sure what you mean by face value. You obviously do not take the Bible at face value, otherwise you would accept Christ as your Savior...so I guess I don't understand your frame of reference for your judgment. When I read what you've written, the words you say fit precisely into a patter described by the Bible about people who will not accept Christ...how is this not taking them at face value. It would seem it is rather seeing what you say for what it is. Of course, I could be wrong...that's for certain...but...God can not.

I think you should have posted the full comment, in the context it was meant. This was not a judgement, but an observation overall, confirmed to me by countless encoutners with christians of all ilks. Here is the original statement in which the face value thing was said:

"Also, how is it I am a without christ? I am a very happy well adjusted complete person. In fact once I did leave the trappings of christianity and religion, I was a lot more at peace, and happy than ever before. I do realize that this statement I made here will not be taken at face value...sigh...."

I have as yet to meet a christian that will NOT tell me I am wrong and just "think" this way. I know myself better than anyother person on this planet.

Also, if anyone passed a judgement on anyone, it was you when you basically quoted the natural man verse earlier in this thread.

Also I would like to know, why is it that you attempt to "hold" me to a bible that I do not accept as anything important? When you quote scripture to me, it means little to nothing to me. The pattern described in your bible has bearing to you and those who follow the book.

Later on, when I have more time, I will anser other points you made, and the other passages from people here in this thread.
Thanks

Squirrel · Jun 22, 2002

Originally posted by sbbqb7n16

Be nice to the man, he's just asking a question....

Now Squirrel, your question I see is a relevant one, but you can't try and answer that question without the Bible! You need the Bible, for it is the Word of God. And without it you can never know about Jesus or why you need Him. So you would need to read the Bible. In my opinion, I would read some of the OT laws on sacrifice to God, and see how it relates to the NT version of what Christ did for you and me. Also read the gospel of John, because I believe he covered the amount of love involved in what Christ did better than the others. Romans is more practical application of Christ's teachings more than anything else. Or at least what I have read

sb....
Thanks.

I have read the bible, and like I said earlier, I fiond it unconvincing. I have approached the bible as many things many times over, and through all of it, I have found it unconvincing.

I have read the bible as a christian, fundie christian, liberal chirstian, skeptical christian, skeptic, hard core skeptic, atheist, and as a human being. At one time I believed the bible (fundie christian days) but then when I really started to search the faith and bible for answers and truth, I , in the end, found it unconvincing. The bible will not bring me back to christianity. it was a part of the reason of the rejection of the belief system and its god to begin with. Not the entire reason, but a very large one.

GTX · Jun 23, 2002

Squirrel says:

"Also, how is it I am a without christ? I am a very happy well adjusted complete person. In fact once I did leave the trappings of christianity and religion, I was a lot more at peace, and happy than ever before.

Squirrel, there is a simple explaination for your new found happiness without the constraints of being a believer.

You see once you are christian and saved, Satan will tempt you and do everything he can to make you miserable, this is called spiritual warfare.

Once you proclaim you reject Christ, Satans work is done, he no longer has any reason to interfere with your happiness, in fact he may even help you with your happiness, he wants you to think that rejecting Christ made you happy, when in fact Satan has lulled you into false sense of happiness to take your mind off God.

If you are interested in eternal life, and interested in God, and you choose to follow Christ, your faith will be tested extensively until you give up and quit believing.

You must be strong, and fight it, God will not give you more than you can humanly handle.

Good Luck Squirrel. And may you once again find God and have the courage and strength to overcome spiritual warfare.

Squirrel · Jun 23, 2002

Originally posted by GTX
Squirrel says:

Squirrel, there is a simple explaination for your new found happiness without the constraints of being a believer.

You see once you are christian and saved, Satan will tempt you and do everything he can to make you miserable, this is called spiritual warfare.

Once you proclaim you reject Christ, Satans work is done, he no longer has any reason to interfere with your happiness, in fact he may even help you with your happiness, he wants you to think that rejecting Christ made you happy, when in fact Satan has lulled you into false sense of happiness to take your mind off God.

You see, this is what I meant by not taking my statement at face value. I am not really happy, since satan is now either no longer making me miserable, or is assisting in my happiness (which would go against my understanding of satan being the antithesis(sp?) of god.) My happiness is a false happiness... your words above: "when in fact...." can you show beyond a shadow of a doubt this is a "fact"?
This would also fall into judging me as well.

If you are interested in eternal life, and interested in God, and you choose to follow Christ, your faith will be tested extensively until you give up and quit believing.

Does this mean, I would have eventually given up my faith? Is this the norm for all chrsitians?

You must be strong, and fight it, God will not give you more than you can humanly handle.

Good Luck Squirrel. And may you once again find God and have the courage and strength to overcome spiritual warfare.

Thanks. Although I believe there is nothing to fight, the term "spiritual warfare" is meaningless to me, but I appreciate the answers.

GTX · Jun 23, 2002

Does this mean, I would have eventually given up my faith? Is this the norm for all chrsitians?

Unfortunately, many Christians go through this, it is not easy having faith in a Creator you cannot physically see.

The thing is you don't even know you've given up, people like you [smart] are easily preoccupied by the questioning of mans origins through man made theories and science, all which can explain to a certain extent, but still leave a void.

This void makes you search, in the end you will never have conclusive proof of ANY origin theories, NEVER. You will never fill this void with science, science is limited.

If you put your faith in the most likely source of origin, you will find Creationism is the most likely theory.

Thanks. Although I believe there is nothing to fight, the term "spiritual warfare" is meaningless to me, but I appreciate the answers.

Of course it is meaningless that is exactly the mindset Satan wants you to have, when it becomes meaningless, his work is done.

With your extensive collection of bibles, please do yourself one favor before you read scripture, pray to God to fill you with the spirit. You are going to great lengths to convince yourself that there isn't a God, maybe you are trying to convince yourself that there is a God.

Does that sound dumb? Since you are smart it would make sense to explore the dimension of prayer and asking God for the spirit before you pray and read the bible, otherwise you have not given yourself a fair shot at hearing Gods word the way it is meant to be heard, we are to ask God for the Holy Spirit while reading the bible.

This can be done in the privacy of your own home, I implore you to pray for the spirit before trying to decipher the bible.

I believe if you truly do this God will plant a seed.

MatthewDiscipleofGod · Jun 23, 2002

I would have to totally agree with GTX about having the Holy Spirit with you when you read the bible. Before I was a believer reading the bible did no good for me. Being saved and asking God for the wisdom of the Holy Spirit everything is in a whole new light and makes since unlike before.

Squirrel · Jun 24, 2002

Originally posted by GTX

The thing is you don't even know you've given up, people like you [smart] are easily preoccupied by the questioning of mans origins through man made theories and science, all which can explain to a certain extent, but still leave a void.

I know what I have given up. As to mans origins, they are a moot point to me.

If you put your faith in the most likely source of origin, you will find Creationism is the most likely theory.

Topics like these do not bother me in the least, a theory is just that.

Of course it is meaningless that is exactly the mindset Satan wants you to have, when it becomes meaningless, his work is done.

I do not believe in the existence of satan.

With your extensive collection of bibles, please do yourself one favor before you read scripture, pray to God to fill you with the spirit. You are going to great lengths to convince yourself that there isn't a God, maybe you are trying to convince yourself that there is a God.

I have done this many times in the past, and nothing came of it. I do not go to any lengths to convince myself. I am convinced there is no god, at least not the version that christians proclaim. Can I be convinced otherwise? Yes.

Does that sound dumb? Since you are smart it would make sense to explore the dimension of prayer and asking God for the spirit before you pray and read the bible, otherwise you have not given yourself a fair shot at hearing Gods word the way it is meant to be heard, we are to ask God for the Holy Spirit while reading the bible.

This can be done in the privacy of your own home, I implore you to pray for the spirit before trying to decipher the bible.

I believe if you truly do this God will plant a seed.

I have done these things time and time again, and there has been no seeds planted.

GTX · Jun 24, 2002

Squirrel, do you truly want to believe and have everlasting life?

Does it ever cross your mind that there is a possibility you could be tormented forever in the lake of fire for rejecting God? No matter how minute, does it ever cross your mind?

Squirrel · Jun 24, 2002

Originally posted by GTX
Squirrel, do you truly want to believe and have everlasting life?

Does it ever cross your mind that there is a possibility you could be tormented forever in the lake of fire for rejecting God? No matter how minute, does it ever cross your mind?

Just wanting to believe is not going to make it all true. I have believed, I have wanted to believe, all of it. I no longer believe, as there is no reason to believe. None.

Everlasting life? As a zombie? As a person like I am now? What type of everlasting life? I get tired of all the bull in this life now, let alone the thought of eternity.... no one can give a solid irrefutable answer as to what the afterlife would entell.

The threat of eternal torment is not consistant with the general concept of the christian god being all loving, along with other problems with the attributes assigned to this concept.

Does the thought of hell ever cross my mind? I would be a liar to say no. But I recognize the thoughts for what they are, a programmed fear instilled in me by my family, society, friends, and others who profess the christian belief. If god is as claimed, then the thought of being infinitely punished for a finite number of sins is silly, and of no merit. To claim gods ways are not our own is cop out, and solves nothing.

God ways are to let us believe with no evidence, and then punish us when we do not buy into the whole no evidence thing.... if that statement is wrong, then how do you KNOW? If gods ways are not our own, then anything is possible.

I have dealt with these issues for many years, and if anything I am more so convinced that it is all for naught.

OldBadfish · Jun 24, 2002

Does the thought of hell ever cross my mind? I would be a liar to say no. But I recognize the thoughts for what they are, a programmed fear instilled in me by my family, society, friends, and others who profess the christian belief. If god is as claimed, then the thought of being infinitely punished for a finite number of sins is silly, and of no merit. To claim gods ways are not our own is cop out, and solves nothing.

Jesus died on the cross (a documented truth) for our sins, we are not punished for finite sins, the only thing that will send you to hell is the rejection of God or blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Once you are a believer and saved, you are sealed forever.

Because God knew that this generation would be subjected to technology that would challenge our faith in God, Jesus came to die for your sins, salvation is easy.

I have done this many times in the past, and nothing came of it. I do not go to any lengths to convince myself. I am convinced there is no god, at least not the version that christians proclaim. Can I be convinced otherwise? Yes.

How could you be convinced?

Squirrel · Jun 24, 2002

Originally posted by Badfish

Jesus died on the cross (a documented truth) for our sins, we are not punished for finite sins, the only thing that will send you to hell is the rejection of God or blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Once you are a believer and saved, you are sealed forever.

An established truth to you because you believe it. I do not, I do not count the bible as a reliable document for historical fact.

Because God knew that this generation would be subjected to technology that would challenge our faith in God, Jesus came to die for your sins, salvation is easy.

This assumes god knows all things. This assumes gods existence. If anything, the technology today has shown many thing formerly held as a truth to be superstition... thunder and lightening and tornados and the like are natural occurances, not the gods playing or fighting, or gettind teed off at man. Know what I mean?

How could you be convinced?

Ahhh that is the million dollar question. It would take hard solid irrefutable demonstrable evidence to convince me. Faith is NOT going to do anything, taking it on faith will not go, believing ang then believing will not go either, as I have went both routes. Paul had his road, Thomas got to poke his finger in the holes, others claim all kinds of things.... Unless solid irrefutable factual evidence that is repeatable is presented, there is nothing that will convince me. Hope this helps.

Gerry · Jun 24, 2002

Ahhh that is the million dollar question. It would take hard solid irrefutable demonstrable evidence to convince me. Faith is NOT going to do anything, taking it on faith will not go, believing ang then believing will not go either, as I have went both routes. Paul had his road, Thomas got to poke his finger in the holes, others claim all kinds of things.... Unless solid irrefutable factual evidence that is repeatable is presented, there is nothing that will convince me. Hope this helps.

Sure helps me to understand exactly what you are as I demonstrated in another Forum already. You are here wasting your time and everyone else's. You are here for the sole purpose of aggravation and agitation and to mock.

Clearly you have made your choice to reject God and you have amply demonstrated that fact through your uninformed arrogance. No such evidence as you demand will be forthcoming from anyone anywhere.

If you were as intelligent as you would have everyone to think you are you would KNOW that Christianity is a FAITH BASED religion, so no one here can help you.

Like I said before, Get a life!

Squirrel · Jun 25, 2002

Originally posted by Gerry

Sure helps me to understand exactly what you are as I demonstrated in another Forum already. You are here wasting your time and everyone else's. You are here for the sole purpose of aggravation and agitation and to mock.

I love how full of the christian love you are. Show me where I mocked, you have not demonstrated a single thing. All you have done, is show how full of intolerance and anger you are. And nothing more. I am afraid you are a waste of my time, and others as well. Are you afriad of questions? Are you so insecure in your faith that you need to resort to your intolerance and judgemental stances? I think you are.

Clearly you have made your choice to reject God and you have amply demonstrated that fact through your uninformed arrogance. No such evidence as you demand will be forthcoming from anyone anywhere.

Well here, you have just demonstrated your daftness. BAdfish asked me what it would take to convince me. I answered, you are not happy with my answer, get over it. The only arrogant one here is you Gerry. Arrogance masked in the name of christ. The FACT of the matter is Gerry, I can be convinced of the exitence of a thing. I just do not accept the evidences put forth in the line "you just gotta beleive it to believe it"... if you are all happy with this type of evidence, more power to you. Do not think I will be. And since you claim there will be no evidence in that light coming from anyone here.... I guess you all would be a waste of time right? Ever read James 1:26 Gerry? Maybe you are the one described in that verse Gerry. I sure know you do not come close to 1 Peter 3:15 type christians. Get over it.

If you were as intelligent as you would have everyone to think you are you would KNOW that Christianity is a FAITH BASED religion, so no one here can help you.

Like I said before, Get a life!

More insults Gerry? It seems you threats of divine punishment has no effect, so now we go to insults. How very christ like Gerry. I am sure you make jesus proud with your actions and attitude.

Oh Gerry, I do have a life, a good one... much to your dismay huh?

SimpleChristian · Jun 27, 2002

Squirrel....I share so many of your thoughts man (if not man, then I'm sorry for the assumption). I have been on this board for less then a day, and I have seen alot of condemnation from Christians, conclusion-jumping and questions left unanswered. Allow me, if you will, to throw my two beans onto the pile and see if I can help. If these beans don't, I am at your disposal through email for any questions that you have...I will strive my utmost to give you the answers...as is my job (in the job description). But hold onto your hat..cause this will be a bit lengthy.

Your first question was why should you believe, but if you don't mind I'd like to answer the 2nd question, regarding Hell and it's nature, first...it will further both cases.

First, as far as the Bible goes...the whold fire and brimstone idea is not really accurate. The are far more descriptions in Scripture as Hell being a lightless place then there are descriptions of fire...and, as far as I know, where there is fire there is going to be light. From Jesus, we know some the keys things about Hell...it will be 1) and eternal seperation from God, 2) there will be 'weeping and gnashing of teeth', 3) once you're there, you're there and nothing can bring you out of it...it's final. So, is there going to be eternal burning? Not likely....when someone asked Jesus what Hell would be like, his answer was to point to Gehenna and say "like that." Gehenna was a place outside of the city of Jeruseleum(sp?) that was basically the trash dump. It was where people took their refuse and where the blood and nasty stuff from the sacrifices in the Temple was dumped. There was part of the place that was always burning because that's how they got rid of the trash. That reference is where a lot of people get the idea of constant burning.

The real torment of Hell revolves around the eternal seperation. Now, you asked how there can be infinite punishment for finite sin? Well, that is not the case with Hell at all....it is not about punishment.

What's that, you say? Hell is not about punishment. Correct! ALL of the afterlife (Heaven or Hell) is about giving people what they want, what they worked for in life. That's it, plain and simple.

You see, God loves ALL human life SO much that He will NOT destroy any soul. EVER! So, from the very beginning this presented him with a boggle. He gave Adam and Eve and ALL humanity that pesky thing called FREE WILL. Why? Because God's biggest goal is love...and you cannot have True Love without Free Will....for love is not true if there is not the option given to not love a person. So...with this advent of Free Will, there was a distinct possibility, which God knew and recognized, that people would willfully choose NOT to love Him. However, because He loves even those who don't love Him, He will still not destroy them! Yes, it would be much easier to just wipe out of existence those souls who do not love Him upon their death...but that goes against His nature....He will not destroy something He loves that much. So...what was He to do?

A person goes through their life here on this planet. During the time that they are here, God calls to them and each and every person gets multiple, multiple choices, chances and decisions. A person DECIDES THEMSELVES what they want in their life, who they want to live their life for, and what they want to life their life for. They have a Maker who loves them with a love beyond anything they could ever wish to experience. A person either accepts this love or denies it. They either want to have a relationship with God, or want to have nothing to do with Him.

Well...all people live in mortal bodies and those bodies ALL eventually die. But we, what we really are, continue on. Now.....this is the really cool part of God's love. Instead of FORCING all people to come to Him after death, He still RESPECTS each and every person and allows that person to go WHERE THEY CHOSE TO GO during their life. For those who wanted to have nothing to do with God, they get to continue having nothing to do with Him in Hell. For those that desired God, they join Him in Heaven.

That's it....that plain and simple.

So where does the weeping and gnashing of teeth and torment come in? Well, let me ask you this....what if you cleaned out your attic and wanted to get rid of all the 'junk' you had up there. Included in that junk was an old painting that was dusty and you thought was stupid and ugly, something left over from your grandparents or something. Now, let's suppose you have a garage sale and you sell that crappy old painting for $10. A few days later you are watching the news and you see the person who bought that painting....and you find out that there was a lost Picasso painted on the canvas underneath that this person discovered and just sold for $50,0000,000. You had that precious thing in your grasp, didn't realize it, and foolishly got rid of it! I'll bet there would be some weeping and gnashing of teeth on your part, huh?!? Now, imagine that feeling multiplied infinitely.

Does that give you a better picture, my friend?

SimpleChristian · Jun 28, 2002

so squirrel....do you want an honest and true answer to your first question: 'why should you believe...'?

Hojo Hominygrits · Jun 28, 2002

I was just wondering, maybe I missed it. (I'm really tired!)

Squirrel, when you were a Christian (Fundie or otherwise), did you at some point pray from your heart to Jesus asking Him to come into your life and forgive your sin and be your personal Lord and Savior?

Why should I believe in Jesus?

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